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Infinity Jet Build (Hey John)

Timberdoodle said:
I understand what he was referring to and that was what I was addressing. If the area is made large enough you will not have the 18% loss he was referring to was the point, so inducing the flow on the side is not needed and could be detrimental to flow. Annular jet may benefit from this, but not individual jet tubes.
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Timber I'm gona call ya out on this ! Iv been building race engines most of my Life .. And if you look at what little change can effect air flow thru intake and exhaust runners on something not even close to a 90 degree change direction .it has huge effects ..people spend a lot of money to change the angle of those intake and exhaust ports just for a few degrees.. To increase air flow ..He'll just the surface texture has huge effects on air flow and power production and consider the density of air compared to water... Water is much. Much more dense than air it takes a huge amount of energy to force the water to change direction and that's not even considering the flow disruption that would come from the odd shape and sharp corners on that chambers ... You have to consider that we r not just pumping water . The performance of how fast that water flows thru this system has a huge effect on the performance of the jet nozzle ..... Instead of the water pressure just acting on the nozzle itself now it has to use some of that power to force a change of direction , when water flow is not such a issue then it's not that important but we have some of the best pumps in the world for water flow,and pressure ! They are by all means a high performance pump!so suddenly it's very important to consider anything that disrupts that flow ! Think of you driving your car down the road and while maintaing your speed you have to make a 90degree turn around a corner . Starting too see the problem ? Now put another 650 more cars behind you all bumper to bumper running as fast as ya can.. That's what your pump is doing with the water flow it provides.... If this were a running faucet you may have a pointe but consider in my pump your dealing with 650 gallons a minute .. Still don't believe me call your pump manufacture and tell him your gona put a 90 degree fitting on your pump output to shortin your pressure hose and ask him what effect it may have !

Just another quick illustration for ya ! Why does everybody use a y type adapter to power the blaster nozzle instead of a t fitting? God know those t fittings are just a few buck compared to what all these dredge manufacture spend making there adapters ... If What your saying is true and that directional flow,change doesn't effectthat much power or flow,difference then why does keene say in there catalog that the blaster nozzle adapter has 3 times the performance the hose fitting does on your pump...
Now you have to consider that hose fitting is much closer to the pump.but it is a 90degree discharge and it has more flow access than the chamber does on that jet..
Befor you go telling people there wrong about stuff you may want to check yourself and your facts . You have to think about something john didn't just drop into this yesterday ! And when you say he is being rude and jumping on you for making the pointe he did about your position on this on the barrels for fast water tred. Just imagine how disrespectful you are being by dis regarding all his years of experience running and building this equipment when you don't have the time and knowledge to back up what your saying!
 

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Ok I called keene today and talked to Pat Keene. I talked to him about pumps and jets. He told me point blank that with any jet no matter the design, when you dump your water supply into a wall your dead heading the flow. It's causing a 17% loss in pressure. He told me they had many years of research on this with pressure reading and such... If it's cut in in a way that it doesn't dead head, it's performs much better,
 

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Yes, if it's made in a way that doesn't dead head it and the flow is smooth it will work. So the area needs to be large enough for the flow to easily split in all directions and feed the jets. The major factor here that is being missed is that the loss through a 90 bend etc.. is dependent on the bend radius and on the velocity the flow is traveling. At the point of the inlet the velocity is not at jet stream velocity but in the range of 20-30fps on most hose sizes. So I'm being told I need to do my homework first. I have done extensive homework on this. Please do the same and look up every type of eductor, multiport jet etc.. and find one that uses this idea. Then look up as much as you can find on pipe loss bends etc.. it's all easily available. Don't assume the whole world of hydraulic engineering has been wrong for 100years and jump on the guy that simply points this out. I think GD probably smiled politely and nodded their head when they heard this.
 

Timberdoodle said:
Yes, if it's made in a way that doesn't dead head it and the flow is smooth it will work. So the area needs to be large enough for the flow to easily split in all directions and feed the jets. The major factor here that is being missed is that the loss through a 90 bend etc.. is dependent on the bend radius and on the velocity the flow is traveling. At the point of the inlet the velocity is not at jet stream velocity but in the range of 20-30fps on most hose sizes. So I'm being told I need to do my homework first. I have done extensive homework on this. Please do the same and look up every type of eductor, multiport jet etc.. and find one that uses this idea. Then look up as much as you can find on pipe loss bends etc.. it's all easily available. Don't assume the whole world of hydraulic engineering has been wrong for 100years and jump on the guy that simply points this out. I think GD probably smiled politely and nodded their head when they heard this.
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Timber directly to your point you just made johns suggesting that you put the inlet inline with the dis charge ... There is no radius to this chamber in any fashion what so ever And yes it does dead head directly into the 6" pipe just on the other side of the inlet port and all of the jet nozzles are at 90 degrees or better. The size of that chamber cannot compensate for for the inertia of the water entering the jet ! That same water enters at 90 degrees from the jet itself and hit the wall of the jet and from there it's forced around the chamber in both directions untill it hits itself and then again is forced to turn down the nozzles from there .. There are multiple 90's here with no radiuses at all .. Your statement was dead wrong ! You didn't apply any hydronic engineering to this you don't have the degree here ... You stated yourself you have built a couple of these ! That's hardly comparison to extensive research... And at your guess of 20 to 30 fps restrictions are huge factors in flow and a flow drops are a huge factor InPressure drops while you may think you have this down tight your arguing with engineers and folks that have a lifetime of practical application ... Neither of which you have !
Also johns suggestion was to make it in a way that did not cause the dead head into the side wall .. So after you say he was wrong now your saying the same thing he said !
 

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G1sammons said:
picture please
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correction, its 12 jets not 16.

materials 2in pipe, 3in wyse, 2x graduated reducers.

glue in one of the two reducers at the exit hole of the wyse. use a strait 1/2in router bit with baring to ream the other reducer so the pipe bore is smooth and you can slide a length on 2in through it, do not increase the gap, it should be snug. glue this piece in place at the input end of the wyse. cut a length of 2in pipe, does not need to be long. bell one end to receive the dredge hose, I recommend making a fitting for the dredge hose that fits so you have a solid connection. at the other end of this piece of pipe, use a router to put a 45deg bevel so when its inserted through the wyse it fits snugly with the graduated reducer at the other end. use a 1/8 dremmel bit to make the jet channels in the bevel.

complete look:
20140205_065105.jpg



jet end in pipe where it fits flush with the inside of the opposite reducer

20140205_065136.jpg
 

Kruzman said:
correction, its 12 jets not 16. materials 2in pipe, 3in wyse, 2x graduated reducers. glue in one of the two reducers at the exit hole of the wyse. use a strait 1/2in router bit with baring to ream the other reducer so the pipe bore is smooth and you can slide a length on 2in through it, do not increase the gap, it should be snug. glue this piece in place at the input end of the wyse. cut a length of 2in pipe, does not need to be long. bell one end to receive the dredge hose, I recommend making a fitting for the dredge hose that fits so you have a solid connection. at the other end of this piece of pipe, use a router to put a 45deg bevel so when its inserted through the wyse it fits snugly with the graduated reducer at the other end. use a 1/8 dremmel bit to make the jet channels in the bevel. complete look: jet end in pipe where it fits flush with the inside of the opposite reducer
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That's nice ! How's it working ?
 

Kruzman said:
correction, its 12 jets not 16. materials 2in pipe, 3in wyse, 2x graduated reducers. glue in one of the two reducers at the exit hole of the wyse. use a strait 1/2in router bit with baring to ream the other reducer so the pipe bore is smooth and you can slide a length on 2in through it, do not increase the gap, it should be snug. glue this piece in place at the input end of the wyse. cut a length of 2in pipe, does not need to be long. bell one end to receive the dredge hose, I recommend making a fitting for the dredge hose that fits so you have a solid connection. at the other end of this piece of pipe, use a router to put a 45deg bevel so when its inserted through the wyse it fits snugly with the graduated reducer at the other end. use a 1/8 dremmel bit to make the jet channels in the bevel. complete look: jet end in pipe where it fits flush with the inside of the opposite reducer
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i see a little room for improvement is the discharge lenth is longer it should make the jet a little stronger suction wise and it may be that way I can't see it in the picture . Just got the feeling but any how it just allows all of the jet nozzles a longer water column to act on and should inprove suction a little more for free no more power needed.. That cool and cheap to build ... Thanks for posting it wish I could build a 6" like that for testing ..
But if I can ever get in touch with glen I'm gona have him build me one .. Seems he's the wiz on these ...
 

Im getting pretty good suction in controlled testing, hoping to do a real world creek test this month when we get a weather break. exit end is 32in in length. I put a 12in just for kicks and it had a very negative effect...
 

G1sammons said:
Timber directly to your point you just made johns suggesting that you put the inlet inline with the dis charge ... There is no radius to this chamber in any fashion what so ever
And yes it does dead head directly into the 6" pipe just on the other side of the inlet port and all of the jet nozzles are at 90 degrees or better.
The size of that chamber cannot compensate for for the inertia of the water entering the jet ! That same water enters at 90 degrees from the jet itself and hit the wall of the jet and from there it's forced around the chamber in both directions untill it hits itself and then again is forced to turn down the nozzles from there .. There are multiple 90's here with no radiuses at all ..
Your statement was dead wrong ! You didn't apply any hydronic engineering to this you don't have the degree here ... You stated yourself you have built a couple of these !
That's hardly comparison to extensive research... And at your guess of 20 to 30 fps restrictions are huge factors in flow and a flow drops are a huge factor InPressure drops while you may think you have this down tight your arguing with engineers and folks that have a lifetime of practical application ... Neither of which you have !
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You really haven't taken the time to study this and are simply throwing things out.
I assume John's design with the side inlet corrects a problem he found with pressure loss because there wasn't enough area between the entrance and the internal pipe to achieve good flow. The decision to try the side inlet was a way to correct this problem and it sounds like he got what he wanted. Good
My point is that by designing the depth of areas between the inlet and inner pipe to be able to handle the flow without loss is the real key. Look closer at other existing designs to see what I mean. Go check out GD's Patent and then look at every patent his (Burl Cheely) patent references for other patents, then look at all those references also. Patent Images

I haven't built 2 or 3 jets. More like 100 or better.
I have spent most of my time in the past 3-4 years working on these things (jets, sluices etc..) and YES I am a engineer so I understand why it is important to know what I'm talking about before sounding off. Wish you would do your own homework.
 

Kruzman said:
Im getting pretty good suction in controlled testing, hoping to do a real world creek test this month when we get a weather break.
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It should have enough suction to scare you .. My first dredge that I bought simply stuns me if you let it suck to your hand while it was flat to cover the end of the nozzle , it flat out would hurt ya ... In my studies on these infinity jets most of the designers at some pointe had made a reference to the lenth of the discharge saying they had issues and could not figure out why the performance was down and it turned out to be the lenth of the discharge ..... That jet should be a lot stronger than a standard jet like 50% stronger ! Any any how that awesome my only concern would be the life of it but as cheap and easy as it is to make there's no need to worry about that!
 

Timberdoodle said:
You really haven't taken the time to study this and are simply throwing things out. I assume John's design with the side inlet corrects a problem he found with pressure loss because there wasn't enough area between the entrance and the internal pipe to achieve good flow. The decision to try the side inlet was a way to correct this problem and it sounds like he got what he wanted. Good My point is that by designing the depth of areas between the inlet and inner pipe to be able to handle the flow without loss is the real key. Look closer at other existing designs to see what I mean. Go check out GD's Patent and then look at every patent his (Burl Cheely) patent references for other patents, then look at all those references also. Patent Images I haven't built 2 or 3 jets. More like 100 or better. I have spent most of my time in the past 3-4 years working on these things (jets, sluices etc..) and YES I am a engineer so I understand why it is important to know what I'm talking about before sounding off. Wish you would do your own homework.
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I know better timber ? I wasn't born yesterday ..
 

Sorry guys I didn't have much time earlier to post the conversation in it's entirety with pat. So he also says that dumping into the side of wall kills 17% and then you also lose another 17% from the pressure chamber to the inducer tubes. That's 34% lost. He then stated that their 2 inducer jets would out perform any jet because of the 34% loss. I can see where he could make that claim because they have no sharp turns.

I talked to him about pump, whether it would be better to use a single 15hp engine and 500gpm pump or 2 - 6.5hp and P180's and he flat out said that 2 engines/pumps will out perform 15hp/500gpm combo. 2 reasons being, more flow with 2 pumps and higher pressure. But that was using their jet logs which he said is designed to be a perfect match for the dual engine/180's.

On a side note, Pat's kind of a prick! Sorry Pat if your reading this but you really need to talk to people a little different.

With this all said, I'm going to do a quick sketch of a jet that I think would address some issues! I'll post it in a few minutes I hope.
 

I know it's a crappy drawing. The gist is you would have 3 inducer tubes coming off each hose. It would have to be built so that the flow at the transition from 2" hose to inducer tubes is as smooth as possible and that they are same length and shape.

IMG_20140205_0004.webp
 

G1sammons said:
nope it's gone if I can get contact info for glen I'm gona have him build me one thou ...
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Ahh I called and left a message for Rusty but haven't receive a call back. I don't know who Glen is!
 

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