'Deadman's Island' map hoax and Cerris Francis' claims debunked

[Oak Island Sage]

Good grief, man, did you even bother to click on the link in post 132? He handed you the evidence.

Carl-NC The article says clearly that the Cradle Blanket was part of the dowry of the daughter of the great Mugul. You have choose which ship was likely to have had the fabulous gold laced blanket discovered on, and also explain the logic behind your choice.,
1/ The unarmed and slow sailing "Queda Merchant" a Moorish Merchant trader. or 2/ The huge Gang-i Sawai the Grand Mogul's powerful 80 gun flag ship carrying a huge treasure and his daughter.
Good Grief, man it's not rocket science it's simple common sense.
It is quite possible that Captain Kidd lied to the Gardener's about what ship the blanket was captured on, that's simply because he would not wish to disclose to anyone his secret association with Captain Henry Every, who also had a kings warrant out for his arrest for plundering the Gang-i-Sawai, and Captain Kidd was in enough trouble.

My theory explained in my book is that Captain Every originally gave the Cradle Blanket to his secret partner Captain William Kidd for a very special future use, however, it became impossible to use it so Captain Kidd simply gave it to the Gardener's perhaps with a false cover story.

Oak Island Sage

 

[Crow]

It never did.

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4526763

The blanket with gold thread came from the Quedagh Merchant.

Here there is few pieces of garment floating around none claim to be part of Avery's treasure.

[KIDD, William (Captain) (1645-1701)]. A PIECE OF THE KIDD BLANKET, a square of green and red striped fabric (4 x 5¾ in.), with floral designs and gold thread. An accompanying manuscript note entitled, "Piece of the Kidd Blanket, Property of Frederick Thompson," explains that "This cloth of gold was given in the year 1697 by the pirate Captain Kidd to Mrs. Elizabeth Gardiner, wife of John Gardiner, the third proprietor of Gardiner's Island. It was captured on the ship "Queda Merchant" by Kidd & was part of the dowry of the Grand Mogul's daughter."below.

Hidden away in Sylvester Manor, a seventeenth-century provisions plantation on Shelter Island, NY, lies a frayed scrap of green and yellow fabric only 4 3/8 x 2 ½ inches in size (fig. 1). Made of silk, cotton, and gilded silver thread, this cloth would have once shimmered in the light. The looping scrawls of a handwritten note give the fragment an abbreviated provenance: “a piece of the ‘Gold Blanket.’” The note asserts that the fabric was “…presented by the Pirate Kidd to Madame Gardiner of Gardiners [sic] Island,” and later “…presented by Mrs. Kimball to Mrs. Horsford, descendants of [illegible] Gardiner.” below.

The East Hampton library has piece in their collection. below

As you see for yourself none of them are attributed to Henry Avery.

But we should point out possible inaccurate claims with the dates given 1699, 1700. 1697. regardless that does not constitute those pieces of cloth are connected to Avery.

John Every (also known as Henry Avery) led a mutiny aboard the privateer warship Charles II on May 7, 1694 The Big Heist: On September 7, 1695, Avery fleet ambushed the Grand Mughal treasure fleet (including the flagship Ganj-i-Sawai) near the Indian coast. Pirate Henry Avery (also known as Henry Every) arrived at the pirate haven of New Providence in the Bahamas around April 1, 1696. source: Smithsonian Magazine

He assumed an alias, bribed the island's governor (Nicholas Trott), and rested his crew for a short period before fleeing onward to the American colonies by June 1696 to evade an international manhunt. source: Live science

John Avery (also known as Henry Every) sailed to Ireland on June 20, 1696. He arrived in the north of Ireland aboard the sloop Sea Flower after fleeing the Bahamas and stopping in the American colonies, after which his crew dispersed and his trail went cold. Source britannica.com

In 1696, Captain Kidd sailed from Plymouth, England, on April 23 aboard the Adventure Galley, arriving in New York City on July 4 to recruit crew members. He then departed New York in September 1696, setting a course for the Cape of Good Hope and the Indian Ocean. Captain Kidd sailed from Deptford (near London) on the ship Adventure Galley on February 27, 1696, stopping at Plymouth before crossing the Atlantic to arrive in New York City on July 4, 1696. From New York, he officially set out for the Indian Ocean on September 6, 1696. Before this 1696 departure,Captain William Kidd first arrived in London in August 1695 to secure royal commissions and gather aristocratic backers and funding for his privateering expedition that was before September 7, 1695, Avery fleet ambushed the Grand Mughal treasure fleet.

britannica.com

As you can see Kidd left the UK on April 23 nearly 2 months before Avery arrived in Ireland June 20. And in 1695 was in different parts of world. In that time period to positively identify any chance meeting next to none.

So the chances of Avery and Kidd colluding as claimed is very slim if not impossible. Avery before May 7, 1694 was not a captain so any colluding beforehand before the events that even took place is sheer speculation. plus In 1695 maritime society, captains and crew did not mix in the same social circles. A strict hierarchy separated them. Captains belonged to the privileged or merchant class, dining at the "captain's table", whereas ordinary crewmen were from the working or lower classes. So any colusion did not exist before Avery became a pirate or captain and afterwards he was never in same part of the world to meet. Even if he did capturing Avery would of made Kidd famous.

So any claim that Kidd and Avery colluded is a flight of wishful thinking and flight of fantasy.

Crow

 

[Cryptid1990]

Carl-NC The article says clearly that the Cradle Blanket was part of the dowry of the daughter of the great Mugul. You have choose which ship was likely to have had the fabulous gold laced blanket discovered on, and also explain the logic behind your choice.,
1/ The unarmed and slow sailing "Queda Merchant" a Moorish Merchant trader. or 2/ The huge Gang-i Sawai the Grand Mogul's powerful 80 gun flag ship carrying a huge treasure and his daughter.
Good Grief, man it's not rocket science it's simple common sense.
It is quite possible that Captain Kidd lied to the Gardener's about what ship the blanket was captured on, that's simply because he would not wish to disclose to anyone his secret association with Captain Henry Every, who also had a kings warrant out for his arrest for plundering the Gang-i-Sawai, and Captain Kidd was in enough trouble.

My theory explained in my book is that Captain Every originally gave the Cradle Blanket to his secret partner Captain William Kidd for a very special future use, however, it became impossible to use it so Captain Kidd simply gave it to the Gardener's perhaps with a false cover story.

Oak Island Sage

The Quedagh Merchant's cargo included silks, calicos and muslins (cotton fabric):

Kidd took the Quedagh Merchant as a prize and carried off its immense cargo containing between 60 and 80 chests of opium, 20 to 30 bales of silks, 200 or 300 bales of sugar, and 500 or 600 bales of calicos, muslins, and other East India goods.

https://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/75141/1/Wilson_IJMH_2015_Piracy_patronage_and_political_economy_Captain_Kidd.pdf

Source: "59 TNA, CO 5/860, no. 64 xi. Copy of ye Examination of Wm Jenkins, Richard Barlycorn, & Robt Lamley, three of Kid's Men, taken the 6th & 8th of July 1699; TNA, HCA 1/15, f. 7. The Informations of Robert Bradenham & Joseph Palmer."

 

[Cryptid1990]

Other posters feel free to continue to debate but I will not be responding further to this thread since we are going around in circles with Oak Island Sage. It was already proven pages back that one of the 'Deadman Island' map versions c. 1940 was drawn by Edward Rowe Snow and the original (parchment) map cannot have dated to the 17th century (this was explained here based on the watermark) and is an obvious hoax (based on its style and dubious provenance). Captain Kidd (or John Ware) certainly never drew it. The claims he is now making about Kidd's 'cloth of gold' and Kidd secretly having met Avery are idle speculation at best. There is not much point in debating a true believer who is never going to change their mind despite they have been thoroughly disproven. No doubt Oak Island Sage will respond to this comment saying he has not been disproven about the map(s), but I think any reasonable reader who reads or browses this thread can see he has. 🔚

 

[releventchair]

Hi Releventchair, there is no evidence that a covert partnership ever existed between Captain William Kidd and Captain Henry Every anywhere before 2004, only a mere suggestion by HT Wilkins. If however anyone can find any such evidence (that supports my theory of this hypothetical collusion) before that date I would be pleased to hear it.

Oak Island Sage

You've been provided such.

Meanwhile your fiction loosely based on the premise of; just because they could have doesn't mean they didn't , gets watered down more each time you present it.

Theory of hypothetical collusion indeed!

 

[releventchair]

Carl-NC The article says clearly that the Cradle Blanket was part of the dowry of the daughter of the great Mugul. You have choose which ship was likely to have had the fabulous gold laced blanket discovered on, and also explain the logic behind your choice.,
1/ The unarmed and slow sailing "Queda Merchant" a Moorish Merchant trader. or 2/ The huge Gang-i Sawai the Grand Mogul's powerful 80 gun flag ship carrying a huge treasure and his daughter.
Good Grief, man it's not rocket science it's simple common sense.
It is quite possible that Captain Kidd lied to the Gardener's about what ship the blanket was captured on, that's simply because he would not wish to disclose to anyone his secret association with Captain Henry Every, who also had a kings warrant out for his arrest for plundering the Gang-i-Sawai, and Captain Kidd was in enough trouble.

My theory explained in my book is that Captain Every originally gave the Cradle Blanket to his secret partner Captain William Kidd for a very special future use, however, it became impossible to use it so Captain Kidd simply gave it to the Gardener's perhaps with a false cover story.

Oak Island Sage

Your "theory" is based on a footnote of a fictional writer in a fictional work.
Outside of taking a feeble swing at plagiarism; there isn't anything attributed to you but a vivid imagination. If that.

Unlike Aladdin's personal flying carpet more than one item was crafted with gold threads interspersed. Even then it's irrelevant when no connection to Avery exists beyond; hey there's no proof it didn't so then it could have happened.

[Hi Bocaj, I found a short reference to it in the index at the back of the book by H T Wilkins entitled Captain Kidd and his Skeleton Island, it was my starting point, see what you can find that hopefully supports my theory.

Oak Island Sage]

 

[releventchair]

Other posters feel free to continue to debate but I will not be responding further to this thread since we are going around in circles with Oak Island Sage. It was already proven pages back that one of the 'Deadman Island' map versions c. 1940 was drawn by Edward Rowe Snow and the original (parchment) map cannot have dated to the 17th century (this was explained here based on the watermark) and is an obvious hoax (based on its style and dubious provenance). Captain Kidd (or John Ware) certainly never drew it. The claims he is now making about Kidd's 'cloth of gold' and Kidd secretly having met Avery are idle speculation at best. There is not much point in debating a true believer who is never going to change their mind despite they have been thoroughly disproven. No doubt Oak Island Sage will respond to this comment saying he has not been disproven about the map(s), but I think any reasonable reader who reads or browses this thread can see he has. 🔚

He does seem insistent it is the clean end of the turd he is holding.

 

[Bocaj]

"was part of the dowry of the Grand Mogul's daughter."

Which is obviously a reference to the Ganj-i-Sawai. So someone was mixing things up at Christie's auction.

I can't see any prove of it coming from the Ganj-i-Sawai but it is a valid speculation that it did.

As I wrote before the issue is that speculation is presented as facts. Speculation is a "could be" which I do all the time. It is helpful and valid to do as long as it is declared as such.

For example:
It is a fact that there is a connection between Avery and Kidd because Kidd was basically tasked to find the treasure of Avery and the other Pirate Rounders and bring it back (by force or persuasion). This was one of the points of his commission even if Avery isn't explicitly mentioned.

A collaboration of then is not proven by anything. It is speculation, not a totally out of place one but nevertheless there exist many other possibilities which make it NOT a fact.

The only cooperation that I can think of would be that Avery had exchanged the treasure against pardons and further assurances and Kidd was tasked to retrieve that treasure. Or as I wrote before as he did know the pirate hideouts (which was one of the facts why he got that commission in the first place) and he simply found the hidden treasure. These are all "could be" - valid speculations same as I see yours.

It is a very difficult task to find the truth of all this as pirates didn't document anything, they had no writers no archives and we know most of it from civilized people who were basically their enemies. In that light we can't even rely on what documents that exist show. Speculation is therefore very important but also using it one must be extremely careful and hard against one's own ideas. Blind uncritical fanaticism is the last thing that is needed in this research.

 

[Bocaj]

So the chances of Avery and Kidd colluding as claimed is very slim if not impossible. Avery before May 7, 1694 was not a captain so any colluding beforehand before the events that even took place is sheer speculation.

I only know there is no certain knowledge of Avery's history before 1694, it is said he was on a the slave trader trafficking slaves from West-Africa. I remember he did invite the local traders on his ship and them chained them together with their slaves. That would indicate he was a captain by then. Kidd was a quite respected privateer captain and it isn't totally excluded that he had business with a smuggler like Avery probably was but not very likely. In any case it isn't my theory neither as I see them as very different personalities and that alone would make any collusion improbable.

 

[Oak Island Sage]

I only know there is no certain knowledge of Avery's history before 1694, it is said he was on a the slave trader trafficking slaves from West-Africa. I remember he did invite the local traders on his ship and them chained them together with their slaves. That would indicate he was a captain by then. Kidd was a quite respected privateer captain and it isn't totally excluded that he had business with a smuggler like Avery probably was but not very likely. In any case it isn't my theory neither as I see them as very different personalities and that alone would make any collusion improbable.

 

[Oak Island Sage]

Hi Bocaj, our theories are like our finger prints, unique, and we all want to be the one who was the first to find the real answers. Just like everybody else I found several very old books on the separate lives and voyages of Captain William Kidd and Captain Henry Every. I found that there were several windows of opportunity for them to have met, in particularly in the Leeward Islands at the island Saint Tomas (Danish) after Kidd had distinguished himself with great valour in the battle of Saint Martins Island. What do the researchers here have to say about that, or Henry Every sailing under the pirate Red Hand Nichols They do not mention the fact that at Campeachy Bay he hid treasure in a deep pit with several log platforms like the Money Pit, or the fact he and his men spent two years cutting logs there for a future secret project.
It a waste of my time trying to steer people in what I perceive to be the right direction. There are too many people on this website with blinkered vision, some will close ranks and prefer to support individuals who provide them with dandy information like Crypted1990.
This 'gentleman' keeps saying that he has proved that Deadman Island map was not drawn by Captain Kidd and that's simply not true, it most certainly was drawn, dated, and signed by the ill-fated Scotsman. If Cryptid1990 and his supporters wish to doubt that then far be it for me to try again to persuade any of them differently, similarly regarding the Cradle Blanket, if my theory does not suit you then believe what you will.
I suppose on reflection there is safety in numbers and some people prefer not to rock the boat, and they prefer to stay on the safe trail of popular opinion. I tried to blaze a trail for them to follow in my book but some still branch off and get totally lost by continually taking the wrong advice from guides like Cryptid1990.

Oak Island Sage

 

[Bocaj]

Hi Bocaj, our theories are like our finger prints, unique, and we all want to be the one who was the first to find the real answers. Just like everybody else I found several very old books on the separate lives and voyages of Captain William Kidd and Captain Henry Every. I found that there were several windows of opportunity for them to have met, in particularly in the Leeward Islands at the island Saint Tomas (Danish) after Kidd had distinguished himself with great valour in the battle of Saint Martins Island. What do the researchers here have to say about that, or Henry Every sailing under the pirate Red Hand Nichols They do not mention the fact that at Campeachy Bay he hid treasure in a deep pit with several log platforms like the Money Pit, or the fact he and his men spent two years cutting logs there for a future secret project.
It a waste of my time trying to steer people in what I perceive to be the right direction. There are too many people on this website with blinkered vision, some will close ranks and prefer to support individuals who provide them with dandy information like Crypted1990.
This 'gentleman' keeps saying that he has proved that Deadman Island map was not drawn by Captain Kidd and that's simply not true, it most certainly was drawn, dated, and signed by the ill-fated Scotsman. If Cryptid1990 and his supporters wish to doubt that then far be it for me to try again to persuade any of them differently, similarly regarding the Cradle Blanket, if my theory does not suit you then believe what you will.
I suppose on reflection there is safety in numbers and some people prefer not to rock the boat, and they prefer to stay on the safe trail of popular opinion. I tried to blaze a trail for them to follow in my book but some still branch off and get totally lost by continually taking the wrong advice from guides like Cryptid1990.

Oak Island Sage

Kidd and Avery certainly had opportunity to meet each other but so do many others. Opportunity is just that and not a fact at all. As I said before you do a lot of speculation which ok with me if declared as such!

As I wrote before some of what you say if taken as speculation is a least worthy of discussion. Still you present those as facts and ignore the valid counter arguments of posters with statements instead of reasoning. This only serves to give your ideas a bad name and has no other tangible positive effect. I would really like to see those proves of lets say "the fact that at Campeachy Bay he hid treasure in a deep pit with several log platforms"! I do btw find the logging operations interesting in their connection with piracy.

Cryptid1990 for his part does always present documentation and reasoning. I do not agree on everything he says but still I can respect him for his quite skilled research. When it comes to "the safe trail of popular opinion" I picture you trying as hard as many others here to win in that competition. Actually the idea that the Palmer maps are a total fake isn't popular at all as there are quite many who build their whole existence around them with a whole bunch of acolytes following the dream of getting Kidd's treasure eventually.

 

[Oak Island Sage]

Kidd and Avery certainly had opportunity to meet each other but so do many others. Opportunity is just that and not a fact at all. As I said before you do a lot of speculation which ok with me if declared as such!

As I wrote before some of what you say if taken as speculation is a least worthy of discussion. Still you present those as facts and ignore the valid counter arguments of posters with statements instead of reasoning. This only serves to give your ideas a bad name and has no other tangible positive effect. I would really like to see those proves of lets say "the fact that at Campeachy Bay he hid treasure in a deep pit with several log platforms"! I do btw find the logging operations interesting in their connection with piracy.

Cryptid1990 for his part does always present documentation and reasoning. I do not agree on everything he says but still I can respect him for his quite skilled research. When it comes to "the safe trail of popular opinion" I picture you trying as hard as many others here to win in that competition. Actually the idea that the Palmer maps are a total fake isn't popular at all as there are quite many who build their whole existence around them with a whole bunch of acolytes following the dream of getting Kidd's treasure eventually.

 

[Oak Island Sage]

Hi Bocaj, I have no intention of elaborating on Henry Every's Campechy Bay treasure and timber stockpile, or the battle for St Martins Island, it's all there for researchers to find like I did.
If I don't add sources to my claims on this website it's because so far I have had to endure several pathetic attacks. You go ahead with your research, and follow Crypid1990 style just write me off as a old dreamer with foolish unproven theories.
As far as I am concerned if anyone do not believe what I have written in my book, or what I have disclosed on this forum, well that's their problem, my aim has always been just to try to give people food for thought, and hopefully set them in the right direction.

Oak Island Sage

 

[Bocaj]

Hi Bocaj, I have no intention of elaborating on Henry Every's Campechy Bay treasure and timber stockpile, or the battle for St Martins Island, it's all there for researchers to find like I did.

You are at liberty to do as you please but this is a public forum and we like to discuss our findings and theories. It isn't a AD server for books. If you make claims then it is expected you do sustain (elaborate) them.

If I don't add sources to my claims on this website it's because so far I have had to endure several pathetic attacks. You go ahead with your research, and follow Crypid1990 style just write me off as a old dreamer with foolish unproven theories.

I fight in my own way as I have done my whole life I do not follow anyone and while I do be grateful for his - and others like Crow's - work I see them as complementary to my own. Life is short I no one can study and know everything. I am far away from any archives sailing mostly uncharted waters so my style is that of a pirate and not a scientific researcher. I also have a heart for "old dreamer with foolish unproven theories" if not I wouldn't care to respond to you.

As far as I am concerned if anyone does not believe what I have written in my book, or what I have disclosed on this forum, well that's their problem, my aim has always been just to try to give people food for thought, and hopefully set them in the right direction.

This isn't a church of anything here so what you believe isn't the holy gospel to bring to us sinners. Sure you idea of a collusion between Kidd and Avery is interesting but without reasoning it is frankly of little value to me.

 

[Oak Island Sage]

You are at liberty to do as you please but this is a public forum and we like to discuss our findings and theories. It isn't a AD server for books. If you make claims then it is expected you do sustain (elaborate) them.

I fight in my own way as I have done my whole life I do not follow anyone and while I do be grateful for his - and others like Crow's - work I see them as complementary to my own. Life is short I no one can study and know everything. I am far away from any archives sailing mostly uncharted waters so my style is that of a pirate and not a scientific researcher. I also have a heart for "old dreamer with foolish unproven theories" if not I wouldn't care to respond to you.

This isn't a church of anything here so what you believe isn't the holy gospel to bring to us sinners. Sure you idea of a collusion between Kidd and Avery is interesting but without reasoning it is frankly of little value to me.

Hi Bocaj, on this website I have posted many thing contained in my book that can be verified by the simple process of going to Oak Island and/or Cape Breton and seeing that they still - exist.
Everything that I have put in my book can be checked on and there are dates and places, but when I have disclosed anything here in the past it is the signal for the flock of nay sayer's to surround and attack me in support for some who provides them with pictures of old books etc.

My source, integrity, and even that of a deceased writer seems to be fair game for some of these 'gentlemen', and that behaviour does not sit well with me.
Whilst I understand your frustration just for a moment consider my own, for about 27 years I have been trying to secure a deal with the various treasure hunters on Oak Island, and I even tried the broker a share deal between the feuding property owners after being invited to fly over from the UK all to no avail., one of the three big players said no.

I have been to Oak island met the property owners and last year in 2025 the members of the Cerca Trova company were considering my free offer of help, but they later opted for doing their own previously planned projects first, that will all fail.
If I don't get the phone call soon then all this stuff about who did what where and when will be forgotten. At this moment in time you may consider me to be superfluous to requirements and you are not alone, but one day in the future you may have cause to change your mind, in that event remember that I once tried to tell people first but few would believe me.

Oak Island Sage

 

[releventchair]

[credibility
noun [ U ]

uk

/ˌkred.əˈbɪl.ə.ti/ us

/ˌkred.əˈbɪl.ə.t̬i/

Add to word list
C2
the fact that someone or something can be believed or trusted:
He complained that we had tried to undermine his credibility within the company.]