Information on RMS Republic ...

[ShipwreckHunter]

I am looking for someone who may have in their possession pictures taken by a relative or friend who traveled on the RMS Republic.. I would love to have copies of any pictures taken before the ship sank in 1909. The RMS Republic was a steam-powered ocean liner built in 1903 by Harland and Wolff in Belfast, and lost at sea in a collision six years later while sailing for the White Star Line. A CQD distress call was issued on the new Marconi radio device, the first recorded, resulting in the saving of around 1500 lives. Known as the "Millionaires' Ship" on account of the number of well-known and immensely rich Americans who traveled by her, she was often referred to as a "palatial liner." She was the flagship of White Star Line's Boston service and was one of the ten largest passenger liners in the world at the time. If someone was to have in their possession a set of blueprints for this ship, I may be able to have them compensated financially for a set of copies... Republic was insured by Morgan's IMM, so perhaps a former employee has a set somewhere .. Please contact me at [email protected] if you have pictures or information on a set of blueprints... All information will be turned over to Martin Bayerle and the "Billion Dollar Wreck" project ... Thank you.. Gene Birdsong

 

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[seekerGH]

https://www.facebook.com/RMSRepublic/

 

[ShipwreckHunter]

Thanks seeker.. That is who I am requesting the information for... They are looking for new clues ... SH ...

 

[Harvest]

In regard to the RMS Republic the first point is the divers with the quality of divers I have seen I don't believe they are experienced enough and your head diver I noticed asked questions while the diver is down he should already know the answers before somebody dies if you have an idea where your gold is on that ship do a shaped charge about 12 feet in diameter and blow a hole in the side of the ship and see what's in there it's quite simple I've been diving for over 60 years and I can't believe the way this operation is being run somebody's going to die out there get some professionals thank you very much and goodbye

 

[Harvest]

All about the pictures find some old advertisements about the cruises from that time you shouldn't have a difficult time acquiring them again thank you

 

[allen_idaho]

Take this with a grain of salt, but I really think further research on this ship would be a huge waste of time and money. I honestly believe that there is no gold or other valuable cargo onboard.

What I do know is that the Republic was bringing 500 tons of cargo to resupply ships from the Great White Fleet that had just used the bulk of their supplies to give aid to victims of the December 1908 Messina Earthquake in Italy. The Republic was NOT, however, carrying gold for these ships. Approximately $800,000 in gold coins were carried to the ships of the fleet by the USS Yankton, an auxiliary gunboat. It reached them in February 1909.

As far as evidence of a shipment of gold to be used as a loan to Czar Nicholas II, I can't find any and I think it is extremely unlikely. You see, in 1904 and 1905 during the Russo-Japanese War, Russia took a series of loans from France and Germany to fund the war, which was a major defeat, for a total of 55 million pounds. While Japan secured a series of loans from American Bankers to the amount of 41 million pounds primarily because of the Anti-Jewish Pogroms that Russia had instituted starting in 1903 which continued in various forms until 1917.

In 1909, Russia had nothing going on. And in 1907 Russia had entered into a trade agreement with France and the UK, which means Russia could have likely gotten a loan directly from them. But Russia didn't need a loan.

 

[imagixx]

Read my Book The Tsar's Treasure

Take this with a grain of salt, but I really think further research on this ship would be a huge waste of time and money. I honestly believe that there is no gold or other valuable cargo onboard.

What I do know is that the Republic was bringing 500 tons of cargo to resupply ships from the Great White Fleet that had just used the bulk of their supplies to give aid to victims of the December 1908 Messina Earthquake in Italy. The Republic was NOT, however, carrying gold for these ships. Approximately $800,000 in gold coins were carried to the ships of the fleet by the USS Yankton, an auxiliary gunboat. It reached them in February 1909.

As far as evidence of a shipment of gold to be used as a loan to Czar Nicholas II, I can't find any and I think it is extremely unlikely. You see, in 1904 and 1905 during the Russo-Japanese War, Russia took a series of loans from France and Germany to fund the war, which was a major defeat, for a total of 55 million pounds. While Japan secured a series of loans from American Bankers to the amount of 41 million pounds primarily because of the Anti-Jewish Pogroms that Russia had instituted starting in 1903 which continued in various forms until 1917.

In 1909, Russia had nothing going on. And in 1907 Russia had entered into a trade agreement with France and the UK, which means Russia could have likely gotten a loan directly from them. But Russia didn't need a loan.

1. The Atlantic Fleet always received money per US Navy regulations at the beginning of each month. This was more important, too, since - again by regulations, the US Navy paid its sailors on the 25th of each month. The $800,000 requisition for the Fleet's February 1909 money was made by Paymaster McGowan on December 31, 1908 - in compliance with Navy regulations, placing money requisitions one month before the need. $500,000 was the standard Fleet monthly operational funds, $300,000 was reimbursement funds for the supplies the Fleet had offloaded for December 1908 earthquake relief. The Republic was scheduled to arrive at Gibraltar on February 2, 1909. The $800,000 shipment aboard the Yankton was the replacement shipment for the funds lost aboard Republic, received by the Fleet at Hampton Roads on February 22, 1909. The Fleet would never receive monies a mere three days before a payday; it would take several days to distribute funds to the individual paymasters. Incidentally, too, the US Navy food stores aboard Republic were requisitioned at the same time or later as the requisition for the Fleet's February money - so they wouldn't ship the money LATER than the food. Also, the Fleet received it's March money in early March, $500,000 too. I have more on the US Navy money in my book, The Tsar's Treasure. And, if you like, I can provide you with my detailed US Navy monies report from which the information in the book was drawn.

2. In January 1909, Russia floated a $240 million loan on the European market. That loan closed January 22, 1909, the very day Republic sailed from New York. $150 million of that loan was to pay off Russia's 1904 war loan then coming due in May 1909. The $90 million was to be applied to Russia's 1909 budget. Unfortunately, Russia did not get a nickle of that $90 million in new money when the loan closed, but was paid it over a period of six months receiving 20% February 22, 20% March 22, and 15% in each of the remaining four months. So, if you need money now but you have money coming to you in the future, what do you do? You borrow against the future money. Russia (her State Bank) borrowed the $3 million which we have identified as being aboard Republic, and we have tracked down repayment of that loan, on February 22. Again, pick up my book, The Tsar's Treasure. Then, we can have a more thorough discussion.

Regards,

Capt. Martin Bayerle, MBA

 

[allen_idaho]

It is your time and money. Do with it as you see fit. I have no interest in reading your book.
You are saying the Republic had $800,000 in gold for the Navy AND $3 million in gold for Russia. Ok. Great. Best of luck. I don't agree. I just don't see it.

 

[imagixx]

It is your time and money. Do with it as you see fit. I have no interest in reading your book.
You are saying the Republic had $800,000 in gold for the Navy AND $3 million in gold for Russia. Ok. Great. Best of luck. I don't agree. I just don't see it.

You "just don't see it" because you haven't looked. I'm just bringing out factual discrepancies between your statements (Russia, in 1909 "nothing going on") and your lack of knowledge of US Navy operations and planning. Apparently, you proport to be an "expert." I make my research available for free to "experts," and also wrote a book to make my research available specifically for critical examination. And, after other experts have acquired additional knowledge regarding the 1909 financial and political environment, and reviewed and verified my sources, they come to a uniform conclusion. If you want the actual work, then we can have an intellectual discussion on facts as opposed to your fuzzy feelings based on your misstatement of facts and continued ignorance. To date, not a single person who has reviewed my research has found fault with it. Your lack of intellectual curiosity is, for an "expert," astounding.

Did you know ships were requisitioning US Gold at Gibraltar, but McGowan didn't have any gold there to give them? He had to give them checks instead - since he had no US Gold to distribute there. Or, McGowan didn't know how he would receive his money until the fleet arrived at Hampton Roads, and the requisition for the replacement funds is marked "Special," a paymaster's term of art defined by Navy Regulations, "when the need was unforeseen." Or that the McGowan NEVER signed a receipt for the $800,000 HE requisitioned December 31, 1908, for delivery to the fleet in early February. The second $800,000 was distributed to the fleet by Brantz Meyer, the Yankton's paymaster, who never handled more than $10,000 in his entire career; he was only bonded for $15,000. And money always followed food throughout the fleet's entire cruise? That the money was originally scheduled to be shipped along with provisions aboard USS Celtic, but when Celtic was reassigned to earthquake relief, it all went on Republic. There's much, much more. My study is essentially a forensic financial analysis. If you don't know what you're talking about, keep your mouth closed. "It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt."

 

[allen_idaho]

Actually, I was in the Navy. And I have never once claimed to be an expert on anything. I'm not sure where you got that from.

The thing is, if the Government had lost a payroll aboard the Republic, there was no reason to hide it. If a large amount of gold for any purpose had been lost aboard the Republic, there was no reason to hide it. It was not war time. The gold couldn't be considered war contraband and wasn't at risk of loss by enemy action. So why hide it?

But like I said, it is your time and money. I could care less what you do with it. I hope you find the fortune you are looking for. Oh, and maybe learn to take a bit of criticism.

 

[imagixx]

Actually, I was in the Navy. And I have never once claimed to be an expert on anything. I'm not sure where you got that from.

The thing is, if the Government had lost a payroll aboard the Republic, there was no reason to hide it. If a large amount of gold for any purpose had been lost aboard the Republic, there was no reason to hide it. It was not war time. The gold couldn't be considered war contraband and wasn't at risk of loss by enemy action. So why hide it?

But like I said, it is your time and money. I could care less what you do with it. I hope you find the fortune you are looking for. Oh, and maybe learn to take a bit of criticism.

Hi Allen, I accept valid criticism very well. It's the criticism from ignorance for which I have a very low tolerance. Now you're getting down to substance - your question is easily addressed, why the need to conceal? A very good question! Of course, I cover this in my book The Tsar's Treasure. Let's start with the Navy cargo alone and some history there. Theodore Roosevelt sent the Atlantic Fleet to circumnavigate the globe on essentially his own initiative. There were those in Congress who did not care for the idea, TR's political foes. In fact Roosevelt got the Atlantic Fleet as far as San Francisco and said, if Congress wants it back, they'll have to fund it. When the fleet successfully completed its voyage, returning to Hampton Roads on February 22, 1909, it returned literally at the very end of Roosevelt's term. An unprecedented feat! Roosevelt left office March 4, 1909. In his autobiography, Roosevelt considers his greatest political triumph as sending the fleet on this journey. Why mar this political feat for himself, and for the country? There certainly was no dishonesty, the loss of funds by accident at sea. What political advantage could be gained, or lost, by disclosure? But, I believe Roosevelt had a greater interest in preserving world stability in the pre-WWI environment - the maintenance of the Tsarist regime as a foil against German expansionism, the reason for the UK, French and Russian alliance at the time. The loss of the Russian gold was the greater political concern. The 1909 loan had been put off since 1906. It was a critical loan to permit the Tsar to repay Russia's $150mm Japanese War loan then coming due in May 1909, and was depended upon to complete Russia's 1909 budget. There was a good deal of doubt that the 1909 loan could be successful, given the political unrest in Russia at the time; it was actually reported in the newspapers at the time that the Germans and Austrians were deliberately "creating foment in the Balkin states" to lessen investor confidence in buying the new bonds. In brief, if the 1909 loan had failed, Russian would have collapsed financially and politically. Anything which would have detracted from the success of that loan, which would detract from creating investor confidence in the new bonds, would be suppressed. So, Roosevelt wasn't covering his own ass, preserving his legacy - he was maintaining stability in Europe. I have a whole section on the pre-WWI political situation at my website Treasure of the R.M.S Republic. The website contains the earlier research, but has sufficient detail on the background. The more up-to-date research is in my book.

If you find fault, find it. Let's discuss it. This is very real, well supported and previously undisclosed - history.

 

[allen_idaho]

It is a good theory. Makes sense. But if that were the case, why was the gold not on the Republic's manifest?

And given that the ship did not sink immediately, several ships responded to the distress call and there was even an attempt to tow the vessel on January 24th, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that any gold or specie onboard would have been taken off prior to the total loss of the ship? Like in similar disasters where mails or specie were usually saved after the passengers were taken off.

Was there evidence that any gold was actually shipped from New York to Paris on January 22nd? Is there a record of a gold export on that day? I know that is the day the loan to Russia closed, but that doesn't necessarily mean they shipped any gold to Paris that same day.

 

[Darren in NC]

It is a good theory. Makes sense. But if that were the case, why was the gold not on the Republic's manifest?

Rest assured, no ship's manifest will detail precious metal shipments from central banks or foreign gov't bullion transfers. There was separate paperwork for security reasons. On occasion, a small commercial cargo of metals will be listed, and even alluded to by Lloyd's such as in the case of the City of Cairo and the Gairsoppa. But most of the time, it was kept very quiet. That separate documentation has long been destroyed since that time.

 

[allen_idaho]

I don't think that is always the case. I have seen specie and bullion shipments listed on manifests before. Of course, that policy could have changed around World War 1. Take the SS Pacific for example. It sank in 1875 about 40 miles southwest of Cape Flattery. The Manifest listed approximately $100,000 in gold and silver specie that belonged to various passengers and a strongbox containing $79,200 in cash that belonged to Wells Fargo.

Or the Laconia, sunk by German Sub U-50 in 1917 which was being salvaged by Deep6 Holdings. The cargo manifest listed the general cargo, mail, brass shells, silver bars and silver specie that was being transported all on the same manifest.

 

[imagixx]

On manifests, a great subject! Now we're getting into a substantive discussion. First, Republic's manifest has not been found. It's not that it doesn't contain any gold cargo, the manifest itself is simply not available - anywhere. Normally, a manifest would have had to have been filed in the Public Inquiry into the collision, the loss of life, cargo and the ship herself. The ship's plans, cargo stowage plan, and the testimony of numerous witnesses would all be heard in a public forum, and well documented. Fault, too, would have to be determined. After all, Republic was the largest vessel lost to her day and policy questions regarding wireless at sea, speed under adverse conditions, number of lifeboats, bulkhead construction and, in general, how did the unsinkable ship sink? - all issues related to Titanic, were raised by the worldwide press and would have had to have been addressed. But, guess what? No public inquiry was ever held concerning Republic. So, since we can't find the documents there, let's look at general manifest policy. A good example would be the munitions cargo aboard Lusitania, recently located, the "supplemental manifest." See deadly cargo In brief, cargoes which arrived late or for security or other reasons, special cargoes could be manifested separately. Items arriving late would be manifested separately. The Russian gold was shipped only once the New York banker's were assured that the Russian European Bond issue had been successful and that the collateral existed for repayment. The successful flotation of the 1909 loan was only determined when the Russian loan closed, January 22, 1909 - in Europe, European time. So, since Europe is six hours ahead and Republic departed 3 pm New York time, there was sufficient time to bring the no-doubt pre-assembled gold from the Sub Treasury in lower Manhattan to the White Star Line pier a short distance away, and load the cargo; but that cargo would not have appeared on the main manifest anyway because of its late loading. Furthermore, since boxes or barrels were loaded, there was no need to inform the steamship company of their contents unless disclosure was a requirement of an insurance company. Government shipments are self-insured by the Governments themselves. Finally, we isolated another secret government shipment of $22 million in Japanese gold, shipped to Paris in September 1905. See: Correlation Analysis - 1914 Gold Shortage | RMS - Republic That gold arrived and shows up both in published French import data, as well as in Bank of France records. But it's no where to be seen in US records. That much gold leaving New York, leaving the country, would have had a negative impact on the New York market. So, it was not acknowledged - and even a cover story was created to account for what people did see - banks recalling short-term loans to gather the money to send to the interior for crops! (But, in reality, to export it, the unseen part).

Finally, no one thought Republic would sink. There is no reason to remove valuable cargoes from an unsinkable vessel. Typical advice at the time was to leave all cargo in place unless there was a perceived absolute necessity to remove it. Republic sank while under tow back to New York. And, there was no practical way to remove 40 tons of gold manually, which was stored on the lower deck and, as a added security measure, beneath hundreds of tons of other cargo loaded in the specie room itself, in the hatchway landing in front of the specie room, and in the hatchway column filling the trunked hatch completely; the specie room was well secured. Remember, the collision occurred in the engine room - the ship was without any power. No winches were available even if they thought the ship would sink!

Again, I cover all of these issues in my book The Tsar's Treasure. Now, we're getting somewhere - great questions!

 

[Darren in NC]

Allen, you're a great collector of data. No doubt about it. I've seen your contributions, and would normally defer to you in many matters along this line...except this. I have specialized in this specific subset of data for a long time. I have traveled personally, and have access to the best researchers globally who have scoured almost every known archives and repository for this specific purpose. I cannot mention names, but you would recognize many of these companies and people. As I stated before, there are exceptions in listing on manifests - like the ones you've correctly stated - but there are many more that will simply never be known because of the separate paperwork. I cannot get into details due to specific contracts, but trust me when I say listing precious metal shipments on a general manifest is an exception, not a rule. This is confirmed by officers who were on these vessels, and give eyewitness testimony as such, which is mainly why we know this.

 

[Darren in NC]

And, there was no practical way to remove 40 tons of gold manually, which was stored on the lower deck and, as a added security measure, beneath hundreds of tons of other cargo loaded in the specie room itself, in the hatchway landing in front of the specie room, and in the hatchway column filling the trunked hatch completely; the specie room was well secured.

Martin, I am not familiar with the Republic's layout, but 40 tons of gold is an unusual amount for any specie room. Normally the purser's office, mail room and/or a baggage room is adjacent to the specie room for overflow. Is this the case with the Republic? What is nearby?

 

[imagixx]

Darren, you are particularly well informed. Since the US Navy gold was available January 18, that is in the Specie Room. Think Laurentic, a good comparable in design (H&W built for Dominion Line, transferred to WSL), quantity of gold and loading - for the reasons you stated, too much for the Specie Room alone. We also have large sandstone blocks forward as, we believe, for ballast, for trim. I'm impressed!

 

[allen_idaho]

I just found this article from January 24, 1909 in which Rear Admiral Sperry stated the total loss of the cargo at $61,000. And more interestingly mentioned that the stores were originally to be transported to Gibraltar aboard the Carmania. But the stores were switched to the Republic at the last minute for some reason.

The Carmania normally ran a New York - Liverpool route. So, theoretically, what if gold destined for the Bank of France remained aboard the Carmania while only the foodstuffs were switched to the Republic? The ship could have easily unloaded any gold in northern France, much closer to Paris than if the Republic unloaded gold in southern France in the Mediterranean.

It doesn't really address the Navy Payroll theory, but it would make sense.

 

[imagixx]

Hi Allen, You're reading our old research, good! We at first thought the gold purchased at New York was for Paris account. Our research has progressed over time.

Carmania was on a Mediterranean route at that time. The Republic was shipping gold for the **Russian State Bank,** gold acquired in New York for Russia. The destination was Gibraltar where the Russian Baltic Fleet was waiting. As I said earlier, under the non-public terms of the 1909 bond, Russia was paid $90 million in new money out of the loan proceeds for her 1909 budget. But Russia was paid that money over a period of six months beginning 30 days later, February 22. Russia needed money immediately, so they both sold bonds in New York and borrowed $3mm as well - to meet the quota of money they needed immediately.

As for the Navy money, everyone knew the Republic was carrying Navy provisions, and the Navy filed a claim for the loss of its foodstores in the amount of $61000 in the Harter Limitation Act Admiralty litigation against the Florida. (This also shows the Government self-insured its cargo. Otherwise, their insurance company would have filed here.) Your next question should be, why didn't they file for the loss of their money? Because, under the Harter Act, the loss of money or other valuables could not be claimed. See Self Insured Without Recourse | RMS - Republic Of course the Navy lost supplies, the 500 - 650 tons the newspapers reported BEFORE Republic sailed. And, everyone would want to know what was their value? It was in the Government's interest to minimize their loss. They had hoped that they might be able to file for the loss of their money too, if they were exempt from the Harter Act. However, they lost that argument on appeal. We suspect the Carmania was originally selected initially for the Navy supplies, but then consideration was also given to the Russian gold shipment - both going to Gibraltar. The Russian gold wouldn't be available until the loan closed, one day after Carmania sailed, the departure date for Republic.