Is history being rewritten or are historians wrong?

[FreeBirdTim]

I thought politics and religion were off limits here? Let's stick to the subject of history and stay away from religious beliefs (or lack thereof), okay?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Please post by our rules, religion and politics not allowed in any forum but our politics forum.

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[Dave Rishar]

I've seen lots of sites claiming to debunk the west and how it wasn't like anything its been portrayed in books, movies etc. However I've recently been into metal detecting and while researching places using lots of older books that supposedly tell things from first hand accounts of people living in that time and there stories seem to tell it as a violent lawless place.

Circa 1900, there were still towns on the west coast that were violent and lawless. The city that I presently live in was one of them, and it wasn't a run of the mill boomtown. (Or perhaps it was.) There was a naval shipyard there. In fact, at one point that shipyard almost closed because the Navy was fed up with the violent and lawless nature of the city that it was located in. The city fathers went through the motions, the crime rate temporarily decreased, the Navy was satisfied, and then things went back to normal a year or two later. It didn't really get cleaned up until WWII, and it remains the armpit of the county today.

Do you think that mining towns from thirty years earlier were less violent and more lawful? Even in the areas where there were "laws" (and I use apostrophes, because these were generally located outside of the United States and any laws in force were locally generated, and locally enforced), there wasn't much of an executive branch. You and I are drinking and we get into an argument, and you shoot me dead. There's maybe one LEO in town to deal with it. Is he a better gunfighter than you are? Smarter? More clever? If not, he can enlist some help, but maybe you're a popular guy with a lot of friends, and your friends all have guns. What now? And if you knew this, going into town, would this make you more or less inclined to resort to violence if you had an issue with somebody?

Iceland had a similar system of government for several centuries, from about 900 to 1300 AD, give or take. Read the Sagas if you want to know how peaceful this system of government is. The institutional violence grew to the point where it made the system untenable, which is how they became subject to a monarchy.

 

[neo]

While I have read WC Jameson he's not the books I'm referring to, I think he's a great story teller and may have found some treasure but that's about it. I can't remember the name of the books there packed in my basement one dealt with lots of pirate treasure and pics from the authors personal collection I think it was written in the 50s and the other was written in the 70s about cocos island if I remember correctly. Will have to dig them out. The book about the west is a book from the 40s called the bad man of the west by George Hendricks.

 

[Gravitytester]

With war or conflict, the victor writes the history. In peacetime, the ruling party writes the history. In both situations, they will typically write it to but themselves in a favorable light. Very seldom do you get a fair and balanced depiction of actual events.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Dave Rishar: I think we can all agree the late 19th and early 20th century had many violent communities - in the West and the East. North and South. Firearms were everywhere and people used them. When did Tombstone have stricter gun legislation - when Wyatt Earp was in town or today?

I am a bit confused by your statement that some places were outside the United States. While they may not have been states, they were organized Territories.

I think the issue is how the violence is portrayed in fiction vs. how it happened in fact.

Clearly there was a lack of local law enforcement. The Canadians watched the US move West and they studied the process carefully, learning from our mistakes because they were twenty or thirty years behind. When their settlers (and gold prospectors) went west they found the RCMP waiting for them. How many large Indian battles were fought in Canada, compared to in the USA?

From your description of your town, there ought to still be caches of gambling winnings, illegal liquor sales, and the proceeds from other assorted crimes stashed away...just waiting to be found. Have you ever heard of Newport, Kentucky?

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Muddyhandz]

If history is written by the victors, then why do I have to press 2 for English?

 

[Old Bookaroo]

neo:

Chances are you are thinking about Bob Nesmith's classic Dig for Pirate Treasure (1958). It is first-rate and highly recommended. There is a long interview with Waldo Logan in it. His name has been back in the news recently, because there is a new book out on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and the protagonist - Rene Dussaq - was a diver for him on at least one expedition he funded. Lead by John D. Craig (Danger is My Business) they were on Silver Shoals.

The Cocos book? The Voyage of the Herman? Interesting - although they didn't recover anything it is a wild story. Factually correct - it's well documented. As I've noted here before, it's a shame the author didn't find a copy of the very rare Our Search for the Missing Millions. It would have added a great deal to the story.

If you enjoyed it I'd recommend The Cruise of the Alerte; The Narrative of a Search for Treasure on the Desert Island of Trinidad [not the steel drum island in the Caribbean - the other one] by E. F. Knight (1890). It is another classic. After the War he became a famous "single-handed" sailor - a term that had more accuracy than he probably wanted, as he'd lost an arm.

Bad Men of the West by Dr. George Hendricks - I haven't read about that one in several years. It's an attempt to psychoanalyze outlaws and gunfighters. Obviously, without the willing participation of the subjects. I don't think it is very accurate. There are much better books out there on the topic.

There are many very accurate history books - balanced and well-documented. It is up to the researcher to find them.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Dave Rishar]

From your description of your town, there ought to still be caches of gambling winnings, illegal liquor sales, and the proceeds from other assorted crimes stashed away...just waiting to be found. Have you ever heard of Newport, Kentucky?

I did an admittedly brief search on Newport. It seems that there was some money there. Bremerton was, and always has been, a bit more of a "low rent" town. That having been said, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some goodies around here. The issue is that the majority of the action was in the downtown area, which has seen extensive redevelopment at least 3 times. (WWI, WWII, 2000-2010.) By "extensive," I mean that it's largely unrecognizable from how I remembered it as a teenager in the nineties. It's all pavement these days, and the "old" structures that are left only go back to about WWII now.

Back about ten years ago, they demolished the old ferry terminal, a block of buildings, the YMCA, and tore up the main drag and several side streets. I missed that boat unfortunately, but that would have been the time to look around here. I'm not expecting more of this any time soon, as there's not much left to replace.

 

[mr_detector]

The future is controlled by those that control the past. The past is controlled by those that control the present

-- Eric Blair (aka George Orwell)

"play it again Sam"

I like this!

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[Escape]

Belief in that which cannot be repeated is a matter of faith. How do you know for sure that you saw what you thought you saw? So, I'd say science, which is faith in man, puts a lot of faith into repetition.

This is why a lot of people only read the sports page. With sports you have thousands of eye witness and instant replay. It's the most accurate news you can get. Unfortunately I'm not a sports fan. That leaves me with the comics.

 

[mr_detector]

I've seen lots of sites claiming to debunk the west and how it wasn't like anything its been portrayed in books, movies etc. However I've recently been into metal detecting and while researching places using lots of older books that supposedly tell things from first hand accounts of people living in that time and there stories seem to tell it as a violent lawless place. On another note I keep reading that only capt Kidd buried treasure and pirates really didn't do that but I have many books from some famous treasure hunters that seem to contradict historians claims. If the past is being rewritten who's doing it and what's there endgame?

Is this for usa or uk? Cheers

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[Old Bookaroo]

Have you every been to the James Cohan store in the French Quarter of New Orleans? They have the remains of a wooden box and coins found during the excavation for the World's Fair (or the Superdome? Sorry - it has been some time). Several men in muddy boots came in to the store offering the blunt for sale. They weren't sure what they'd found - but they knew where to sell it.

When San Francisco's SOMA was being developed there was a very nice find of gold double eagles lost in the fire and earthquake of 1906. Nineteen of them, as I recall.

Chances are some finds were made during the redevelopment of your town. They just didn't make the papers...

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Escape: That's an interesting example because thousands of people saw precisely the same event - and then argue about it for years and years and years...

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[mr_detector]

It looks like america has a lot of intrest than england haha

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[Duckshot]

This is why a lot of people only read the sports page. With sports you have thousands of eye witness and instant replay. It's the most accurate news you can get. Unfortunately I'm not a sports fan. That leaves me with the comics.

The comics are about truths, not fact. I like comics too.

 

[foiler]

The people doing the writing are not often the people doing the 'doing'.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Maybe you've been reading the wrong works.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[neo]

Dig for pirate treasure is the first book, the second one I think was called treasure hunters or hunter if I remember correctly but it wasn't WC Jameson's book. This one came out a long time ago I remember the guy was an archeologist and treasure hunter, some of the book told of his time in south america with a class and a time him and a friend had to escape some shady people down there.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Old bookaroo, love your input into this thread !