Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[wrmickel1]

Mick,

I commend you on your knowledge of the Jewish connection to the early history of the SOJ. You are correct on that. Those converts from traditional Jewish dogma were the subject of a long history of conflict within the Society. Their contribution to the success of Ignatius of Loyola's vision were many. It was a bitter rift in an otherwise tolerant and inclusive fellowship.

I've never given much thought to Passover iconology on the PSM but its not beyond the pale of consideration. This is not the place for a detailed religious discussion so I won't delve too deeply. But........anyone with but a passing interest in the subject knows there are two parts to the King James version of the Bible. The old testament is the history of the Jewish faith, its laws and prophesy. The new testament is the fulfillment and refinement of it, IMO.

Lynda

I agree, with your total statement. Old
Yes, the King James Version is a cut and add copy of the basic Jewish Bible.

babymick1

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

Mick,

I commend you on your knowledge of the Jewish connection to the early history of the SOJ. You are correct on that. Those converts from traditional Jewish dogma were the subject of a long history of conflict within the Society. Their contribution to the success of Ignatius of Loyola's vision were many. It was a bitter rift in an otherwise tolerant and inclusive fellowship.

I've never given much thought to Passover iconology on the PSM but its not beyond the pale of consideration. This is not the place for a detailed religious discussion so I won't delve too deeply. But........anyone with but a passing interest in the subject knows there are two parts to the King James version of the Bible. The old testament is the history of the Jewish faith, its laws and prophesy. The new testament is the fulfillment and refinement of it, IMO.

Lynda

Hmmm…it may come as a complete surprise, but I would guess that a number of people on this forum are not only familiar with the Jesuits and their history, but also the fact that the King James Bible contains the history of the Jewish people.

I’m skeptical that the Jesuits were founded (or “infiltrated”, as Mick said) by a gang of non- or semi-converted Jewish guys trying to hide out in the Catholic Church. Obviously, there’s been a modern-day reconciliation of sorts between the Catholics and Jews. Bully for that. But it was a revolutionary and heretical idea back then. For the sake of demonstrating the absurd by being absurd, let’s just see how this plays out back in the day:

Pope to St. Ignatius: “Hey Loyola…care to partake in Holy Communion, commemorating the very event that obviates the need for Christians to observe Passover, and is the most obvious separation of the Christian and Jewish faiths?”

St. Ignatius: “No thanks, Paul, I’m good. After so many years of dedicating my life to this stuff, giving away all my worldly goods, starting a missionary Order to spread the Gospel, etc., I’m just gonna go back to the old ways as if none of that Easter stuff ever happened, and take a big ol’ bite out of this Seder lamb-chop instead. Oh, by the way, care to see my treasure map? You’ll get a kick out of my reference to Passover. You guys aren’t gonna get mad, are you?”

Are we to believe that it would have been a good idea at that day and time, for any non-Christian Spanish or Mexican folks subject to Spanish law and hiding their faith, to chisel what was in effect a denial of the Sacrifice of Christ into a treasure map? There would be no more clear way to demonstrate that someone had picked a lane between Christianity and Judaism. As I said before to Mick, to each his own, but I personally think that is going a bit too far. Maybe I should just get some of those chocolate bar wrappers and make up a tin-foil hat, I fear I’m going to need it.

In the meantime, for anyone interested, the true history of St. Ignatius and his Order is available for anyone to find. I recommend it.

PS - Just an aside: Did the Jesuits use the King James Bible?

 

[Old]

Hi Jim,

We are debating two different angles of the same story. Really we aren't that far apart. Mick (and now me) are speaking of the real fact of WAS. You are speaking of the real fact of NOW THEREFORE. There is a lot of uncovered ground in between those concepts.

I commended Mick because he has told us he doesn't read much. In what he posted he had to have read and studied this subject on more than just a surface level. To know the Jewish coverts contribution to the early SOJ requires more than a Wikipedia run through. I think that's a good thing. I gave him a nod on digging deep to learn all that he can. He has been spoofing us <g>. Mick, I'm "on to you". I'll watch you closer in the future (LOL).

My comment doesn't speak to any one else's knowledge or lack thereof. Nor does it speak to what take aways they get from THEIR study of the historical record. All are valid. But to get to a debate level requires more than just a surface run through.

Discussing mine, Mick's and other folks in-depth thoughts on the subject would be a GREAT topic but its treading on very controversial territory. For those obvious reasons its probably better left un-tilled.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hi Old,

I suppose you’re probably right that such ground remain un-tilled. I’ll tamp down the little pieces of sod I spaded up and drop the subject.


I’m more than a little surprised, though, that you’re just now catching on about Mick…

 

[wrmickel1]

Hmmm…it may come as a complete surprise, but I would guess that a number of people on this forum are not only familiar with the Jesuits and their history, but also the fact that the King James Bible contains the history of the Jewish people.

I’m skeptical that the Jesuits were founded (or “infiltrated”, as Mick said) by a gang of non- or semi-converted Jewish guys trying to hide out in the Catholic Church. Obviously, there’s been a modern-day reconciliation of sorts between the Catholics and Jews. Bully for that. But it was a revolutionary and heretical idea back then. For the sake of demonstrating the absurd by being absurd, let’s just see how this plays out back in the day:

Pope to St. Ignatius: “Hey Loyola…care to partake in Holy Communion, commemorating the very event that obviates the need for Christians to observe Passover, and is the most obvious separation of the Christian and Jewish faiths?”

St. Ignatius: “No thanks, Paul, I’m good. After so many years of dedicating my life to this stuff, giving away all my worldly goods, starting a missionary Order to spread the Gospel, etc., I’m just gonna go back to the old ways as if none of that Easter stuff ever happened, and take a big ol’ bite out of this Seder lamb-chop instead. Oh, by the way, care to see my treasure map? You’ll get a kick out of my reference to Passover. You guys aren’t gonna get mad, are you?”

Are we to believe that it would have been a good idea at that day and time, for any non-Christian Spanish or Mexican folks subject to Spanish law and hiding their faith, to chisel what was in effect a denial of the Sacrifice of Christ into a treasure map? There would be no more clear way to demonstrate that someone had picked a lane between Christianity and Judaism. As I said before to Mick, to each his own, but I personally think that is going a bit too far. Maybe I should just get some of those chocolate bar wrappers and make up a tin-foil hat, I fear I’m going to need it.

In the meantime, for anyone interested, the true history of St. Ignatius and his Order is available for anyone to find. I recommend it.

PS - Just an aside: Did the Jesuits use the King James Bible?

Thats the very reason Father Polzer, Worded his Analysis of the Stone Maps, not to be fake, but seem to be not of the
SOJ. He new what he was looking at, just didn't understand the concept of what they were relating to.

I sure would have loved to pick his mine.

A basic spilt between them, The Old Testament you never exchanged money in the house of God, The new one you give the church 10 percent in the offering plate in Gods house. MONEY CHANGERS!

babymick1

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Jim,

We are debating two different angles of the same story. Really we aren't that far apart. Mick (and now me) are speaking of the real fact of WAS. You are speaking of the real fact of NOW THEREFORE. There is a lot of uncovered ground in between those concepts.

I commended Mick because he has told us he doesn't read much. In what he posted he had to have read and studied this subject on more than just a surface level. To know the Jewish coverts contribution to the early SOJ requires more than a Wikipedia run through. I think that's a good thing. I gave him a nod on digging deep to learn all that he can. He has been spoofing us <g>. Mick, I'm "on to you". I'll watch you closer in the future (LOL).

My comment doesn't speak to any one else's knowledge or lack thereof. Nor does it speak to what take aways they get from THEIR study of the historical record. All are valid. But to get to a debate level requires more than just a surface run through.

Discussing mine, Mick's and other folks in-depth thoughts on the subject would be a GREAT topic but its treading on very controversial territory. For those obvious reasons its probably better left un-tilled.

Lynda and Jim,

IMHO, You are both partially correct. I haven't run the subject through Wikipedia, but I am more than casually informed on the topic. For all who are interested in the Jesuit/Jewish connection, I would highly recommend "The First Jesuits" by Father John W. O'Malley, S.J. "Jews and New Christians" begins on page 188 and gives some understanding of the relationship between the two religions.

Father O'Malley is no neophyte, but is internationally recognized as the foremost authority on Jesuit history. What I gleaned from reading three of his books, was that the Jewish influence on the Jesuit order was more take than give.

"O'Malley has given us a book unlike any other in Ignatian scholarship, one which will set the standard for decades to come." Howard Gray, S.J., University of Detroit

Good luck,

Joe

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Thanks, Joe. I was able to find a good hardcover on Amazon, the new ones were out of stock so had to go with a good condition used one. Ordered a copy of St. Ignatius' personal writings while I was at it. Best regards, Jim

 

[Bavarian Joe]

I agree, with your total statement. Old
Yes, the King James Version is a cut and add copy of the basic Jewish Bible.

babymick1

The KJV is a gussied up version of the Geneva Bible, minus the footnotes.

Any version of the Bible with the Old Testament has a Torah in it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hmmm…it may come as a complete surprise, but I would guess that a number of people on this forum are not only familiar with the Jesuits and their history, but also the fact that the King James Bible contains the history of the Jewish people.

I’m skeptical that the Jesuits were founded (or “infiltrated”, as Mick said) by a gang of non- or semi-converted Jewish guys trying to hide out in the Catholic Church. Obviously, there’s been a modern-day reconciliation of sorts between the Catholics and Jews. Bully for that. But it was a revolutionary and heretical idea back then. For the sake of demonstrating the absurd by being absurd, let’s just see how this plays out back in the day:

Pope to St. Ignatius: “Hey Loyola…care to partake in Holy Communion, commemorating the very event that obviates the need for Christians to observe Passover, and is the most obvious separation of the Christian and Jewish faiths?”

St. Ignatius: “No thanks, Paul, I’m good. After so many years of dedicating my life to this stuff, giving away all my worldly goods, starting a missionary Order to spread the Gospel, etc., I’m just gonna go back to the old ways as if none of that Easter stuff ever happened, and take a big ol’ bite out of this Seder lamb-chop instead. Oh, by the way, care to see my treasure map? You’ll get a kick out of my reference to Passover. You guys aren’t gonna get mad, are you?”

Are we to believe that it would have been a good idea at that day and time, for any non-Christian Spanish or Mexican folks subject to Spanish law and hiding their faith, to chisel what was in effect a denial of the Sacrifice of Christ into a treasure map? There would be no more clear way to demonstrate that someone had picked a lane between Christianity and Judaism. As I said before to Mick, to each his own, but I personally think that is going a bit too far. Maybe I should just get some of those chocolate bar wrappers and make up a tin-foil hat, I fear I’m going to need it.

In the meantime, for anyone interested, the true history of St. Ignatius and his Order is available for anyone to find. I recommend it.

PS - Just an aside: Did the Jesuits use the King James Bible?

As I understand it, they used the Rheims bible, not the KJV, and had some notable tussles over it. Among their attacks included was that the KJV is quote "unreliable, full of errors, and useless". A careful comparison to the Septuagint however will quickly lay those accusations to rest.

 

[markmar]

Also , I can't understand why John Reed lied to Clay , saying to Clay how he lied to Erwin and Ely about the three rocks at the size of a barrel , which exist and mark the mine site .
I believe Reed never forgot where the mine site was , but he just didn't want to reveal the site . As Clay said , John Reed was a strange man .

I post a GE image of the three rocks of the size of a barrel , mentioned by John Reed in clay Worst's document/story , or otherwise the three rocks like wickiups mentioned by an Apache woman to Scholey in the LDM clues .

View attachment 1559031

 

[azdave35]

I post a GE image of the three rocks of the size of a barrel , mentioned by John Reed in clay Worst's document/story , or otherwise the three rocks like wickiups mentioned by an Apache woman to Scholey in the LDM clues .

View attachment 1559031

lol..your going to have to give us a microscope before we can see anything in that pic

 

[Doc4261]

lol..your going to have to give us a microscope before we can see anything in that pic

The 3 rocks are on the middle red hill. 3 white rock in the form of triangle. Cant miss them.

 

[markmar]

The 3 rocks are on the middle red hill. 3 white rock in the form of triangle. Cant miss them.

That spot is few feet afar from the wash bottom and about a foot higher . Don't image a big canyon bottom , but an about 400 feet long side arroyo .

 

[markmar]

Here is a GE image from the area of the LDM shaft . You can see the three pines ( from Julia's map ) in the red circle and the mine place with the yollow dot .
Also you can recognize the brushy region above the mine , like was mentioned by John Reed in his descriptions .

View attachment 1562690

 

[markmar]

Modified picture of the Dutchman's mines region taken from airplane . With red dot , the place of the roofless two room house . With yellow dot , the " placer " tunnel mine , and with yellow dot , the "quartz " shaft mine .

View attachment 1571122 View attachment 1571123

 

[Oroblanco]

Modified picture of the Dutchman's mines region taken from airplane . With red dot , the place of the roofless two room house . With yellow dot , the " placer " tunnel mine , and with yellow dot , the "quartz " shaft mine .

View attachment 1571122 View attachment 1571123

AHA! I know the EXACT SPOT! Now I will be able to sneak right in there! Thanks for the photos that helped me pin it down!

I am kidding amigo, I see what you are talking about here but I can't make out where it is - and DON'T tell me!

Please do continue;

 

[ORO18]

Oro,i believe the”Pit Mine” to be aincent Part of the original workings of the mine, hohokam,Aztec, as you may well imagine thing of this nature and magnitude has attracted occupants of the land for a very long time,the area is covered with archeological grfitti, we found an Aztec Ghost worior (White)face petroglyph les that 200 feet from A mine.the canyon in witch the mines lay runs up hill north down hill south, the pit mine or original adit, is oriented closest to the top of the mountain, underneath is the sombrero shafts, Aztec workings and at the bottom of the canyon/mountain is native mines the squaw monument, the nativecheef monument as described by DR Thorn is a monument of jeranomos face and his feather is up side downmakeing chevrons point up witch is an Apache mine symbol also present is a massive sixous monument.

 

[ORO18]

 

[markmar]

AHA! I know the EXACT SPOT! Now I will be able to sneak right in there! Thanks for the photos that helped me pin it down!

I am kidding amigo, I see what you are talking about here but I can't make out where it is - and DON'T tell me!

Please do continue;

Little more image

View attachment 1571466

 

[ORO18]

I’ve herd about those photos Marius they were brought up a few times during my research phase, do you have the originals or copy’s?