Is there any REAL proof about the log platforms and 90 ft stone?

[Steamboat]

Is there any REAL proof that the log platforms and 90 ft stone actually existed? Or if there was a 90 ft stone is there any proof that it was found at 90 feet?
The Oak Island TV show has been going on for a number of years and they don't seem to have found anything that would prove there ever was a "Money pit".
Could the log platforms and 90 ft stone be made up stories to get investors to finance the project?

 

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[Raparee]

There is no real evidence of the 90’ stone or the log platforms. Just stories that have been accepted as fact.

 

[gazzahk]

Here a really good article investigating the evidence (lack off) of the 90 foot stone

https://www.oakislandcompendium.ca/...lost-90-foot-stone-part-2-in-a-special-series

 

[Steamboat]

Thanks, gazzahk, that was very interesting reading. I think it possible that the 90 ft stone and the rest of the story was made up to get investors. Quite often the real treasure in treasure hunting is getting investors. The TV program is a good example of this.

 

[Mudflap]

That was an interesting read.

 

[DaveVanP]

You would think that the stone would have been considered unusual enough that at least a rubbing would have been made of it, but there is nothing. The few "recreations" of the carvings were made many years after it was supposedly found, from memory. An old photo of the book bindery where the stone was supposedly on display shows what appears to be a stone in the window, but nothing can be seen that appears to be any sort of markings or carving.

There are so many different stories as to what happened to this mysterious stone that the story of its very existence is easily questionable:
It was a doorstop.
It was used as a door threshold/step.
It was used as a "pounding stone" to smooth leather for use as book bindings. ( - if it had carvings, it wouldn't be smooth.)
It was used to build or repair a basement wall.
It was lost:
It was buried in a garden.
It was dumped in Smith Cove.
It was dumped in Mahone Bay.
It was hidden:
It was sent to France.
It is in a "secret chamber" in Rosslyn Chapel.
It is in secret storage at the Library and Archives Canada in Ottawa.
It is in secret storage at the Smithsonian Institute.
It is in secret storage at Area 51 (along with the Grail and Ark)

 

[SSR]

Of course not. There is no documented evidence of anything like that there before first searcher activity in the mid 19th century. What we do have is a boat load of coincidences that ties all the early OI stories to known literary myth and some existing allegories about the search for immortality.

The MP is an important detail in an old religious story, that of Enoch's shaft/vault. Enoch is one of those men who ascended directly to heaven from life, so he becomes an important symbol, as does Elijah, in the narrative. The inner chamber is beyond the stone with the unreadable symbols at the 9th innermost level, hence the platforms at ten feet to a depth of ninety feet if one wants to relate a story to people in a different way. In Enoch's legend you can never reach the inner chamber; it was said to first flood and then fall in on itself (collapse) when you try and pierce the mystery. A famous Nova Scotian of the day, Thomas C. Haliburton, wrote a wonderful allegory about the search for a treasure in Chester Bay and his account has served as a source of many of the odd ideas that came out after it was published in the 1840s.

Haliburton's relatives in England later founded the Francis Bacon society. He had spent extended time with them just prior to writing his story that touches on the mystery in Chester Bay. His allegory contains symbolic references to Bacon's links to OI also. The allegory itself is a cryptic attempt to show why the OI area interested Francis Bacon and why it later got signaled out by post colonials for that reason. The suggestion we are given by Haliburton is that Bacon knew the approximate OI location. He came to know it for symbolic reasons. If you, like him, take a Mercator map of the Earth you can draw an imaginary line that projects from Giza through the Pillars of Hercules to the NA coast at around Chester Bay. See my modern display of it: https://i.imgur.com/XTHostv.png . Scaled calculation of the distances between OI and Gibraltar and the distance from Giza to OI showed that their ratio was given equal to about Phi. That sort of linear relationship and mathematical coincidence is what set off the symbolic smorgasbord that eventually gets built upon so richly. Levels of coincidence is what this mystery is about. If you take this projected line from Giza to OI and find it's mean you can use it to display the other Pythagorean means geomtrically, the harmonic mean (line H in the image) and the geometric mean (line G). The geometric mean, when displayed, produces a line that cuts right through Great Britain on the Mercator map. It's own mean (half way point) produces a location that falls close enough to Stratford-upon-Avon to suggest it. And so the nice coincidences piled on...Bacon described all this in his own way in his lifetime, but it was not given overtly. He used illustrated references to constellations/asterisms that are at zenith at two locations to give a significant triangular relationship (to him in mathematical terms) on the Mercator map. Cyngus of the Swan and Triangulum (the perfect miter of St Peter, as if was observed and named by the Greeks) are his end posts for OI and the area near Alexandria. The third location in the triangular relationship was just N and E of Hispaniola at a location Bacon referred to as the Great Turks (near Grand Turk, Caicos today). This triangular relationship was in the form of an elongated isosceles triangle and it's actual height to base ratio equaled Tau (the Great Tau is an important theme in Bacon). This was done to demonstrate mathematical cunning. The Great pyramid at Giza has a side triangle of height to half-base ratio equal to Phi. Bacon's Mercator triangle shows a ratio height to half-base equal to Pi. Pi and Phi are the two great mathematical constants of the Pythagoreans. They were symbolized by silver and gold, or moon and Sun. This symbolic coincidence allowed Bacon to marry Sun and Moon together symbolically again (the famous alchymical wedding) and point to an actual rare eclipse that had not yet occurred, the total eclipse of 1651 that was to occur exactly at Sunrise just North of OI and Nova Scotia. This was a massive level of coincidence to Bacon. Esoterically, it was equated to the darkening of the sky at the time of the Crucifixion and to a mythical time when a living human could ascend directly into heaven like Enoch and Elijah. It's a wonderful story, but it's all built upon clever coincidences, mathematical and literary. It has no real meaning. Haliburton understood that and cautioned in his allegory that the mystery in Chester Bay was not the type of search that most believed (French or Pirate treasure). He warned ominously that men would die in shafts looking for the wrong thing at the wrong place if they did not go at it wisely. That is in fact what ensued with OI. OI is a staging ground for a story. At one point is was surveyed by colonials and markers were put in place to reflect the symbolism and the geometry Bacon once employed only on paper. Why? Because Bacon is a very important philosophical figure to some, and probably because they misunderstood what he left behind cryptically.

Bacon has nothing to do with OI except that he saw fortuitous coincidences in geometry coming out of the area there. Someone at some point chose an island and made it reflect Bacon's ideas. That person is likely Charles Morris and some of the early military/masonic figures of NS. Haliburton points to Irish individuals (or their ancestors) associated with Scottish rite Freemasonry from the 61st regiment who came to NS in 1758 for the protection of the colony as perpetrators of treasure stories. It is debatable whether they would have themselves included a symbolic treasure of simply suggest one as some sort of masonic fool's errand.

 

[franklin]

Was your Charles Morris any relation to Samuel Morris or Alpheus Morris born 1742?

 

[DaveVanP]

SSR - Mathematics is fascinating enough, with the thousands of interesting and often profound correlations one can find in numbers and nature - however too often there are those that take these naturally-occurring coincidences and assign imagined importance to them. You observation of the ratio of the distances of Giza to Gibralter to Oak Island being "equal to about Phi" (1.618...) can be said about an INFINITE number of other ratios that can be calculated. If I had the time and inclination, I could come up with a mathematical correlation between France, St. Louis MO (patron Saint of France) and Pierre, ND ("Pierre" is a French name), and then tie it all together with some esoteric knowledge of Chateau Montségur, the Priory of Sion, and the origin of the Merovingian line of Kings...all based on coincidental mathematical ratios and formulas. What you have presented above would be more intriguing if perhaps ALL the ratios and proportions had the EXACT same constant or conversion factor, rather than requiring different divisors or multipliers to get the numbers to match up....and "ALMOST equal" doesn't really add much credibility, either.

 

[sdcfia]

The Oak Island Legend

 

[SSR]

SSR - Mathematics is fascinating enough, with the thousands of interesting and often profound correlations one can find in numbers and nature - however too often there are those that take these naturally-occurring coincidences and assign imagined importance to them. You observation of the ratio of the distances of Giza to Gibralter to Oak Island being "equal to about Phi" (1.618...) can be said about an INFINITE number of other ratios that can be calculated. If I had the time and inclination, I could come up with a mathematical correlation between France, St. Louis MO (patron Saint of France) and Pierre, ND ("Pierre" is a French name), and then tie it all together with some esoteric knowledge of Chateau Montségur, the Priory of Sion, and the origin of the Merovingian line of Kings...all based on coincidental mathematical ratios and formulas. What you have presented above would be more intriguing if perhaps ALL the ratios and proportions had the EXACT same constant or conversion factor, rather than requiring different divisors or multipliers to get the numbers to match up....and "ALMOST equal" doesn't really add much credibility, either.

Bacon did not see real world significance in that coincidence, so certainly not profound significance either. He wasn't that easily impressionable. You seem to be thinking he did. It's what is called coincidence by us and that is what he would have called it too, and coincidence is everywhere in the world as you say. What coincidence allows is for anyone to build a story that has no bearing on inductive reasoning; it would be just a story using a coincidence. Please do not think that I am implying Bacon was tricked in thinking nonsense. He simply observed that there was a linear projected line that went from Giza through the Pillars of Hercules to the NA coast. No one can deny that that is doable! To project beyond two points to a third is not a massive leap in theorizing. That gave him an area in NA to build an interesting symbolic narrative with. It's an area that is under the Swan in celestial globes of this era. This is exactly as it would have been done in ancient times when people actually observed natural coincidences and used them to base their religions in (erroneously, of course). Bacon wasn't trying to rewrite History here.

The ratio is 0.6103 if I use my graphing tool, but Bacon would not have had such precision. Like we both say, that's purely coincidence. It's as much coincidence as the Earth and moon's diameter working out to give almost perfect overlap in total solar eclipses. The distances of both from the Sun form a ratio that are mirrored in the diameter ratios. Problem is those distances are ever changing in geological time. It just so happens that during humans' lifetimes the distances work out to an almost perfect 1:1 eclipse coverage. In truth, what we do get are annular eclipses, but the match can appear quite remarkably perfect when you think about it. Similarly, the distances on the globe between two points changes with moving continents. It would be insane to claim that an observed ratio was God given if it is always changing. Mercator maps in 1620 were not that precise either. All Bacon ever observed was an approximate value of Phi, which would have tickled his fancy and started him off.

If it does appear strange that he would be looking at this sort of thing think again. He is known to have been laboring quite a bit to use the charts and maps of Elizabeth I to try and devise a geometric system to determine longitude using Thales' intercept theorem. One actually came out of this period. The "Great Circle" method of navigation requires one to draw lines around the globe from which the straight bearings of Mercator maps could be related to allow a working out of position. The line from Alexandria to Gibraltar already had a very long and Ancient history of having been used to sail the Mediterranean and could be sighted with constellations on the ground. All that Bacon would have done is projected it to the North American coast. It's useful as a reference line because it is in proximity to two of the colonies Bacon was already involved with, the Virginia colony and the Cuper's Cove colony in Newfoundland.

What I think is particularly clever for him to have done is use the observed Phi ratio to then define a large isosceles triangle with a third location in order that it's height to half-base ratio be Pi. That he certainly did not observe; he made it happen on paper by choosing the third location at the Great Turks. That's not a coincidence. That's a willful act. At that point you have a very tidy bit of symbolism to start to write allegories with that involve pi and Phi, Sun and Moon, and silver and gold symbolism. Let's not forget that Bacon was an allegorical writer too. He wrote a fanciful allegory of a Utopian island that we all know at one point based on the old Atlantian myth of the Greeks. With Pi and Phi signaled on his charts, the lead is there for all the allegory that follows, his and and those that came after who have built on it. All of it just comes out of an observation and a bit of basic calculation.

I won't even bother to show you where he illustrates this very thing in his works. That's not really important. What is important is that others way before our time suspected they knew of these geometric games. This is actually why you have this long literary tradition of Bacon associated with OI that is at least 150 years older than Petter Amundsen's unrelated Shakespearean Ark fantasies. It was written about in Nova Scotia before there were documented excavations looking for the money pit. As far as History goes, a money pit has never been found. It wasn't found because it originates in a story. The story is Enoch's legend and the theme of the allegory of the day which presented it was the quest for immortality, something Bacon was experimentally consumed with and sought to depict symbolically also.

I'm sorry if all this offends you, but the legends at OI are based in events that are themselves about fictions (the writing of stories). What is real that you can look up is the prediction of a symbolic eclipse that occurred in 1651 which occurred precisely at Sunrise. It was written about allegorically before it happened. It's time and place were given in symbolism in "The Chymical Wedding of CR". An American alchemist of note even left Harvard around 1650 looking to find this place as he thought it to be related to the philosopher's stone (another bad assumption). The signaling of the event and the place has a literary tradition. Good luck finding anything there, though. That's what Haliburton also suggests. His exposure to the idea came out of England from his high society relatives, the Burtons, who were in part consumed with the study of Francis Bacon. You will not separate the OI stories from Bacon because they are all written with Bacon in mind. When Haliburton's now famous British niece started writing in 1891 that Bacon was Shakespeare the search at OI shortly morphed into search for a vault of documents. The suggestion of that came well before the purported evidence, which should slightly trouble fans of the ground searches. It suggests evidence was being produced to conform with theories, and not the other way around.

Still there is stuff signaled on OI. I believe that it realistically dates to or slightly after the surveying of the Shoreham grant there by Charles Morris. From that point on it's basically a Nova Scotian recreated Masonic mystery. The modern Bible of OI history was written by a well known NS Rosicrucian. Of course, these same Rosicrucians see Francis Bacon as their Imperator. Bacon has always been close to OI and nowhere in the long story are there Templars except that the symbolism can be used to write new stories involving them with. Please keep Montsegur out of it please. That belongs to another mystery and other versions of story telling.

 

[lokiblossom]

Please keep Montsegur out of it please. That belongs to another mystery and other versions of story telling.

Is it story telling to write that on March 16, 1244, 200 men and women were marched to their deaths simply for their beliefs on the mountain pog of Montsegur?

Cheers, Loki

 

[DaveVanP]

It suggests evidence was being produced to conform with theories, and not the other way around.

At last, a statement that I can agree with...

The stories of Oak Island are a classic example of exactly that happening. Someone comes up with a bizarre story, researches to find "evidence" that "by interpretation" could support that hypothesis, REJECT any evidence that calls it into question, and fabricate evidence as necessary. Not scientific or even logical, in the least - but it attracts viewers and sells books.

 

[SSR]

At last, a statement that I can agree with...

The stories of Oak Island are a classic example of exactly that happening. Someone comes up with a bizarre story, researches to find "evidence" that "by interpretation" could support that hypothesis, REJECT any evidence that calls it into question, and fabricate evidence as necessary. Not scientific or even logical, in the least - but it attracts viewers and sells books.

I'm in no way interested in the recent horseshit suggestions about OI.

Remember that the Haliburton allegorical account is written by a Nova Scotian in the ca. 1840 period and that it predates the searcher activity. It is the literature that inspired the suggestions about the origin of the mystery made to investors, the search "goals" and many of the future theories. All the so-called second hand testimonials about a shaft with platforms and a stone with mysterious symbols appears only after the Haliburton account. There are no trace of these Enochian pit suggestions before. Where some people get everything wrong is when they assume that ALL the OI stories are written after the fact or that there were actual events that lead to stories appearing that then only coincidentally match up very closely with much earlier Biblical myth IF we squint hard enough and force ourselves to see something that really isn't there.

The way the story developed on OI is with myth as a starting point. Those myths are about the quest for immortality which was a fanatic pursuit of Bacon (in life and in art). I'd separate the stories in three phases. There's the initial creating of an esoteric allegory that involves the area around OI in general as being part of a larger geometric "perfection". That came out of basic Euclidean poking around with Mercator maps and ideas about sun and Moon symbolism that is attached to the earliest religious concepts of civilizations. That got written about in Europe in an faddish fashion (which is in keeping with the times). The second phase comes later when there's an association of the mystery to a specific NS location by someone still unnamed that involves a pointing to related myths and more basic Euclidian geometry. I would have no problem saying the second phase is inspired by the existence of the written record of the first. The third phase of the story is the colonial era with it's rumblings about weird geometric things going on with OI. You' ll find a hint of that in some local German legends about that area. Not surprisingly, it was the local Germans that assisted William Morris in surveying the grant there. In the third phase appears Haliburton's allegory, "The Old Judge". One has to assume he was aware of the rumors about this ground occurrence of suggestions at OI since he was among the leading local antiquarians and he resided not that far from there. It's only after he went to London and discussed many of this with his famous cousins that he produces the damning story that I feel is the one that is tying phase one with phase two. A comparison of ideas must have happened in London. The Baconian suggestion was seen to mesh with the location. The two stories collided and what we have received ever since is part of the next phase, which is people looking to confirm the detail in stories. The story has gone way off the rails, so to speak. It has left it's mythical context and found a home with pseudo historians now. We have Freemasons to blame for this, IMO. They are the ones who have aided in developing this story into more of what helps their made up stories about their own lineages. Now it's being exploited by shameless P.T. Barnum-types. Phase one and phase two still had something to teach you. Later phases are about "there's a sucker born every minute".

Incidentally, the reason OI gets associated with Baroque paintings is that the geometric symbolism is the same. It's all Pythagorean numerology with a polygon given framework for the most part. It is very bad logic to say that any two stories using the same symbolism are in fact the same story. That's the same type of logic that gets you Templars in Nova Scotia with mythical religious relics.

 

[SSR]

Is it story telling to write that on March 16, 1244, 200 men and women were marched to their deaths simply for their beliefs on the mountain pog of Montsegur?

Cheers, Loki

Why these people as the chosen ones for your symbolic hill to die on? You don't even know what beliefs they held. It is still conjecture today as to what exactly they believed. The Catholic Church accused them of being a Manichean sect, the last European bastion of that thinking. That may or may not have been an accurate charge. I have never read one word you have written to that effect. Who is Mani and how does he relate to your preferred prophet, BTW? When you walk down that road you walk down the road of heresy and wanting to know what is heretical and what is not. Good luck with that. It's all a fiction from the point of view of the party that wants to impose dogma. When Haliburton wrote his allegory about "The Old Judge" he was taking aim at all people's beliefs about what God is and what one's judgement day might entail as it relates to immortality. He knew the history of heresy. The Cathars were by no stretch of the imagination the only ones to have been signaled out for that. Bacon, and later Haliburton, make the point that all religion is heretical and far from what it first started off being. Sun, Moon and stars get signaled as some of earliest predecessors. The OI mythology is about an allegorical marriage of Sun and Moon. It is built on the most basic ideas of what God was to the earliest people's and the troubling reality that we cannot possibly know it.

Your Cathars had a kinship with many who were put to death in human History. Being put to death doesn't get you as the subject matter of the OI mystery, though. If you need the fabrication at Reine-le-Chateau and Sinclair or Amundsen's, as it appears from your previous suggestions, to get you to OI start rethinking your suggestions. The Romantic legends around Cathars in Europe were all the rage in Medieval times. Among the most recent legends about them is the stuff that Plantard faked and that Brown and others have popularized. In my opinion you are still only surface deep in a many centuries long narrative you can't begin to untangle at this point. It's that way partly because you're using recent known fabrications as a starting point and you are trying to defend the clumsy position with coconut fiber dating on an island in NS. In fact, you aren't even claiming a literary link. You are claiming a physical link. I don't think even Haliburton would have dared to say that Bacon had ventured to OI. If you want to claim that Cathars inspired ideas that somehow traveled to OI then let's hear what you think they thought to begin with.

 

[SSR]

The Oak Island Legend

They get very close on that site to what Haliburton says when they finger the Nova Scotia Archibalds in a possible scam to defraud Nova Scotians.

I have suspected the two Archibalds associated with this mystery are the inspiration for the characters of the "old general" and the "old admiral" in "The Old Judge". When you compare to their actual backgrounds you find one was an officer and one was in the Royal navy. The family is Irish in origin. Haliburton ties the story to the 61st regiment In Ireland (which was tied to Scottish rite freemasonry) that came to Nova Scotia in 1758 for the defense of the colony. He may be theorizing on that bit, but the Archibalds are likely candidates. So many of the other people involved are either acquaintances of theirs or relatives. It's even possible they were duped into defrauding Nova Scotians by themselves falling prey to a mystery that has symbolism sure to attract Masons like them. A possible scoundrel to have exploited them is Vaughn (who is tied to other treasure stories in New Brunswick later). It is not until John Smith died that Vaughn started to recall events occurring on Smith's property 40 years earlier (very convenient). They then got published in local papers at about the same time shares are being offered. Haliburton's Chapter two is titled 40 years earlier. It's a likely reference to Vaughn's fantastic accounts of an Enochian-type pit with levels and a stone with mysterious symbols. Haliburton named a character in his account Enoch Pike to poke fun at that. His chapter I dealt with idea origins and how to get to OI from Halifax.

There's a judge involved in this allegory too. I lean on him being inspired by Charles Morris who was, in his youth, the man who surveyed the grant that contains OI with the help of the early German population. He later became a Provincial Justice. He had a real life nemesis in another judge named Belcher. Halliburton gives his old Judge character with a nemesis named Beler. That's a solid link for a suggestion if you ever study the allegory. Local German legend had spoken of strange geometric goings on in Chester Bay. IMHO, Haliburton is marrying that legend with the later fraud. If it wasn't clear enough that Haliburton was allegorizing about OI he gives you a planted settler named John Smith also that is given the not so common attributes of Francis Bacon. It's a clever mish-mash of story telling.

Critical inquiry is a bit all over the map with their skepticism, much of which "could be" fine criticism if it wasn't so shallow and in need of logical leaps. The best type of skepticism is not just to point out the a mountain of possibilities of this being duplicitous, but to show exactly how things are being twisted. They do emphasize quite a bit that fraud was long ago alleged at OI. I would say they are right, but that they are short on details. That may not interest anyone, though. knowing that there's plenty of doubt to go around works to undermine the other types of suggestions about treasure and pseudo History claims.

 

[Ryano]

I think it was Carl Sagan who wrote that if he were a religious man - understanding what we know now about the astronomical chances of natural forces producing just the right relationship of size and distance between our Earth, Moon, and Sun to produce perfectly proportioned lunar and solar eclipses - is evidence enough of a guiding hand or creator.

 

[franklin]

Amen.

 

[SSR]

I think it was Carl Sagan who wrote that if he were a religious man - understanding what we know now about the astronomical chances of natural forces producing just the right relationship of size and distance between our Earth, Moon, and Sun to produce perfectly proportioned lunar and solar eclipses - is evidence enough of a guiding hand or creator.

We actually know it is just a coincidence. It's not a perfect coverage either. The distance between Earth-moon is slowly growing, and the Sun-Earth's distance is changing also. It appears to have significance now. A day will come when there are no total eclipses on Earth. What I take from Sagan's take on "if" is: since we can explain why it's a coincidence there's no need of religious men. Nature is littered with symbolic coincidences because the laws of nature are fundamentally geometric. Some of the first neolithic God concepts were associated with circles for a reason. Their cohorts became polygons in geometric relationships, often triangular. The world was seen as a four dimensional entity with square relationships. Squaring the circle came signify making the two ideas mesh somehow. All great fun, and solid proof that spirituality, although a human constant, is ever changing in its religious expression.

 

[SSR]

Amen.

Why are you invoking the Egyptian sun God Amen, King of all kings? As I suspected a lot of you pseudo-Historians are actually religious fundamentalists looking to prove your stories.