Jesuits / Franciscans Reccomended Reading

[Randy Bradford]

Trying to better understand the differences in the Jesuit and Franciscan orders as they relate to the American Southwest and it's history. Trying to better understand their motives, how they carried out what they did and what impact they had both on the native populations and their respective communities. Also trying to understand the competing nature of the two orders and how they may have been influenced by, or themselves influenced the French movement west as well. Understanding the Franciscan expulsion would be ideal too.

Given all of this, what book(s) would you recommend for necessary study?

 

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[mdog]

Here's something you can start out with.

http://www.americanjourneys.org/pdf/AJ-092.pdf

 

[mdog]

Here's another one.

https://books.google.com/books?id=h...EINTAE#v=onepage&q=aulneau collection&f=false

 

[mdog]

Read whatever you can find about this guy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/René-Robert_Cavelier,_Sieur_de_La_Salle

La Salle hated the Jesuits and claimed that they had attempted to assassinate him, one time by poison and once again by sending a killer squad of Iroquois after him.

 

[mdog]

Then there are the Jesuit Relations which will probably keep you busy for the rest of the winter.

 

[sdcfia]

Thanks for the links, mdog.

 

[mdog]

Thanks for the links, mdog.

You are very welcome.

 

[mdog]

Something else that might help you Randy are the trails that connect New France and New Spain. The Sac Trail was an important trail but it didn't stop at Rock Island , Ill. It continued west on the south side of the Mississippi to a ford across the river at Muscatine, Iowa. From there it went almost straight west to Des Moines where there was a southwest branch, later called the Dragoon Trace, that cut down to the Fort Leavenworth area to join the network of trails that would later be called the Santa Fe Trail.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Fascinating reading MDOG, you have earned a cuppa coffee.

 

[mdog]

Fascinating reading MDOG, you have earned a cuppa coffee.

Merci beaucoup, mon ami.

 

[Randy Bradford]

mdog, enormously appreciative of the links...should keep me reading a while. It's been a gap of ignorance I've long meant to remedy. Thanks so much for the help...

 

[mdog]

mdog, enormously appreciative of the links...should keep me reading a while. It's been a gap of ignorance I've long meant to remedy. Thanks so much for the help...

You're very welcome.

 

[deducer]

Trying to better understand the differences in the Jesuit and Franciscan orders as they relate to the American Southwest and it's history. Trying to better understand their motives, how they carried out what they did and what impact they had both on the native populations and their respective communities. Also trying to understand the competing nature of the two orders and how they may have been influenced by, or themselves influenced the French movement west as well. Understanding the Franciscan expulsion would be ideal too.

Given all of this, what book(s) would you recommend for necessary study?

Franciscans were not expelled from the SW.

Here is a good primer:

Difference Between Jesuit & Franciscan | People - Opposing Views

On second thoughts, read this thread from page one. There is a tremendous amount of information here:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/jesuit-treasures/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real.html

 

[Oroblanco]

Franciscans were not expelled from the SW.

Here is a good primer:

Difference Between Jesuit & Franciscan | People - Opposing Views

On second thoughts, read this thread from page one. There is a tremendous amount of information here:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/jesuit-treasures/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real.html

Not exactly the same way the Jesuits were, however the Franciscans were ordered to surrender all property as all missions were secularized 1823, and all non-Mexican priests were given one year to exit the country of Mexico, which included most of the American southwest. Spain had ordered a partial secularization in 1813, for any missions that had existed for ten years or more (which was most by definition) and the Secularization Act of 1833 completed the job.

But during the Mexican revolution in the beginning of the 19th century the Franciscans were expelled and replaced by secular priests, the consequence was a great lack of priests. In the year 1823 as Mr LB Prince states there were only five Franciscan Fathers and six secular priests in all New Mexico.

<The Franciscans Missions of the Southwest, vol 6, pp29>

Can you imagine how the padres would feel, being ordered to abandon their flock and their homes, leaving ALL of the "Church" property (which would include treasures) to thus be seized by the government? How would you feel about it? A handful of priests remained, had to be Mexican-born (by law) which meant a great shortage of priests. Anyway to me this Secularization Act (actually several of them over twenty years) looks like the smoking gun for a strong motive to conceal treasures held by the missions. I would propose that a fair percentage of treasure tales that can be traced to "old Indians" in the late 19th century, are probably referring to Indians that had lived under the Franciscan friars and witnessed them concealing the 'Church' valuables rather than allow them to be seized by the State.

Very good suggestions posted BTW.

 

[deducer]

Roy, you are correct. It seems my fatal flaw is that my interests in the SW goes up to 1767 and then picks up again in 1949.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Franciscans were not expelled from the SW.

Here is a good primer:

Difference Between Jesuit & Franciscan | People - Opposing Views

On second thoughts, read this thread from page one. There is a tremendous amount of information here:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/jesuit-treasures/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real.html

Couldn't remember who was expelled, the Jesuits or the Franciscans...but at least now you know why I'd like a broad overview of the orders and their activities. The Jesuit Treasures thread is likely a good source of information but holy cow if a 260 page thread isn't overwhelming. I'd like to know which way is up before I tackle that.

 

[Oroblanco]

Couldn't remember who was expelled, the Jesuits or the Franciscans...but at least now you know why I'd like a broad overview of the orders and their activities. The Jesuit Treasures thread is likely a good source of information but holy cow if a 260 page thread isn't overwhelming. I'd like to know which way is up before I tackle that.

Randy - both Jesuits and Franciscans were expelled, at different times and different methods. The Jesuits were literally "rounded up" in what was supposed to be something like a 'sting' operation, although in our southwest they simply sent word to the priests to come in and they did. By comparison, the Franciscans were ordered out of the country if they were not Mexican born, and everything belonging to the various missions was to be turned over to the federal government, "secularized" and the priests to be replaced by "secular" priests. The end results were similar though, the priests were run out of the country, the Jesuits with virtually no advance notice and the Franciscans were allowed a year to exit.

Wishing you and everyone reading this a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, I wonder why ??

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro, I wonder why ??

Would you care to expand/expound on this issue amigo? <Some of our readers here may not be aware of what led to this episode of Mexican history> Thanks in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, yer passing the buck.