Julia Thomas had the best chance

[393stroker]

Julia had the best shot at finding the mine but failed. Perhaps her interpretation of the directions was the culprit. Here’s and audio https://creators.spotify.com/pod/pr...chmans-Gold-Mine-Lost-Treasure-Series-e2nggjm

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I would include Rhiney. A shame nobody ever seemed to ask him much...or if they did, they didn't write or talk about what he told them. Other than Bark...

Bark's account is no doubt the earliest "interview" of Julia and Rhiney, and Bark seems to focus on Rhiney when trying to get info on the mine. Bark said that Rhiney's story never changed even after he asked 40 questions sometime later, and Rhiney's answers were the same with the exception of a small difference in how he described the time it took Waltz to get to Adamsville. 3 or 4 days initially, 4 days on the second questioning.

There was no Peralta massacre in Bark's account. But the Peralta story from "Jacobs and Ludi" had already been appended onto Waltz...Replacing Jacob Ludi with Jacob "Wieser" (Weiss most likely) and Bark gives no directions to the mine, although he mentions a parchment map and directions being stolen from Julia. I wonder if Bark ever got the directions and if they differ from Bick's version a few years later.

Rhiney was always described as a "boy" at this time, but he was 25 when he and Julia went into the mountains and saw Bark. He later went on to quite a career in mining, before he took over as caretaker at Besh Ba Gowa later in life.

He did try and find the LDM several times throughout his life. But very rarely with his dad or brother, or any partners. I've always wondered what Rhiney knew and never told anyone.

 

[Idahodutch]

I would include Rhiney. A shame nobody ever seemed to ask him much...or if they did, they didn't write or talk about what he told them. Other than Bark...

Bark's account is no doubt the earliest "interview" of Julia and Rhiney, and Bark seems to focus on Rhiney when trying to get info on the mine. Bark said that Rhiney's story never changed even after he asked 40 questions sometime later, and Rhiney's answers were the same with the exception of a small difference in how he described the time it took Waltz to get to Adamsville. 3 or 4 days initially, 4 days on the second questioning.

There was no Peralta massacre in Bark's account. But the Peralta story from "Jacobs and Ludi" had already been appended onto Waltz...Replacing Jacob Ludi with Jacob "Wieser" (Weiss most likely) and Bark gives no directions to the mine, although he mentions a parchment map and directions being stolen from Julia. I wonder if Bark ever got the directions and if they differ from Bick's version a few years later.

Rhiney was always described as a "boy" at this time, but he was 25 when he and Julia went into the mountains and saw Bark. He later went on to quite a career in mining, before he took over as caretaker at Besh Ba Gowa later in life.

He did try and find the LDM several times throughout his life. But very rarely with his dad or brother, or any partners. I've always wondered what Rhiney knew and never told anyone.

Howdy Jim,
In the past, I remember pondering why Julia would have memorized the monumented trail directions, except at Waltz’s bidding.
They must have been written down at one time, maybe on an old Peralta map, but to me, it was saying that the whatever had the directions, did not survive.

She was able to recite the directions back years later, to Bicknell, except for if the tributary canyon comes into the north south canyon, from the East or from the West…. That part she was unsure of.

I don’t remember Julia ever attempting the monumented trail after the initial failed attempt.

After that, the starting point seemed to be moved to over by the board house.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Morning Russ,

You always seem to nail the pertinent points...I know you've been thinking about this and kicking around those mnts for over fifty years or so... The only thing I would say is that Bark stated there were some sort of written directions:

Written directions is about all I can think of when Bark says "...and how to get to it"

There was also a story from Tom K. about Herman. Herman said the first time he went out there with Julia and Rhiney, they came in from the Mesa/Lehi road, wound up ditching their wagon, and entered the mountains around First Water...they headed towards Weaver's Needle, searching that area and the west side of Bluff Springs Mtn.

This tells me they had some sort of map and understood how to get to the area from either the northwest, or the south/board house...and probably walked right by the site you've been describing on this forum.

There was the one article (A Queer Quest) about Julia's search, but when you take all the different stories together it seems obvious to me that Julia made several trips into the mountains with Rhiney. More than one, anyway. The clear break comes in Sept of 1892, when Ol Pete takes two other guys into the mountains without Julia, Herman or Rhiney. Julia marries Albert Shaffer not long after, and I would speculate Shaffer made a few trips in there before and after their marriage. But from the searches we know about, it sure sounds like they were focused on Needle Canyon...

Anyway, I think the stories were wrong about Rhiney's relationship to Julia. We're told that Julia was Rhiney's "adoptive mother"...but Julia was only 4 1/2 years older than Rhiney. Rhiney was already 18 y/o when his brother George died in 1885 and the Petrasch family splits up...this was just before Julia and her husband Emil came to Phoenix... Rhiney was no child that needed mothering. When Emil ditches Julia, Rhiney sticks to her like glue....but then Rhiney splits for good when she gets serious with Albert Schaffer. Not too hard to figure out what was going on there.

 

[Idahodutch]

Good morning Jim,
Wow, lots of great tidbits to digest. 😁

“the parchment map of his mine, and how to get to it” …. That short snip from Bark seems to paint an image in my mind. One of a parchment map (one that fits into her handbag, repeatedly, without getting destroyed) “and how to get to it” certainly sounds like written directions.

> Were the directions written on the backside of the map?
Or
> was there a separate item of some sort that contained the “and how to get to his mine” part?

It does sound like (2) separate parts of (1) item. But if someone had a map and then wanted to write a series of directions for “how to get to it” to go with the map, then logically the backside would be a convenient place.

The other thing that has been bugging me, is just what exactly is “parchment paper”?

I looked it up to see when was it invented ….. and for what purpose.
Here is what came up…..

So it was invented as a “writing material”.
> If it was material used for the making of a map that had ended up years, or maybe even decades later, in the possession of Julia, it must have been “durable” parchment paper. 😉👍

If had some regular paper maps that don’t last very long if used regularly. It would fall apart, get wet. … but parchment paper from the 1800’s might have been more than one thickness to select from 🤷🏼‍♂️.

Maybe the material used for some old Mexican treasure maps (that I have seen only lousy photographs of 🤓) were considered parchment material. 🤷🏼‍♂️

If the maps attributed to Mexicans of the 1700’s - 1800’s (leather appearing ones) were not some form of parchment paper, and were/are some other material, it would mean that Waltz might have been the maker of the map … 🤷🏼‍♂️🤓

So … you bring up an excellent point … a map for being able to come in from different starting points, to get to the same area.

The Waltz map is a plot map of a small region, and does not contain directions for getting to the region.
> Is that why there was the “and the way to find it” statement.
> Was the statement referring to the “monumented trail” directions that Julia had at some point, memorized.
> Maybe Julia wrote down what she could remember …. (Onto the back of the map, or as a separate item 🤷🏼‍♂️)

I only got to the first couple of tidbits. 🥴
Great post Jim. 👍

 

[Idahodutch]

Jim, I think you are right, in that Julia and cohorts must have gotten a copy of whatever map of the mountains they might have been able to obtain, for learning of finding different ways to go in, and find “weavers needle” anyway.

Good question on what map(s) might have been available at that time.

Here is a snippet of one from 1875, but not much good for superstitions area.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Russ,

As far as I know, there wasn't a widely available map of the Supes that showed the pertinent canyons in much detail until the Florence Quadrangle was published, I think the first version was in 1902. It was surveyed in 1900.

There were military maps that showed some trails through there, but I don't think there were any floating around where the average citizen could get their hands on such a map.

By them having some sort of a map, I mean that someone told them they could access the area/get down around Weaver's Needle from the NW. It may have been drawn out for them on a piece of paper. It could've been Waltz, or someone after the fact like Bark or one of his cowboys. There were plenty of people around Phoenix who could've explained how to get in from the NW, and how the canyons were the same ones they were trying to access from the south.

This is just speculation based on Tom K.'s story about Herman's first trip in with Julia and Rhiney. But the route described by Herman leaves no doubt that they planned on heading in from the NW, and managed to do so without any trouble. (except finding out they couldn't get their wagon all the way in there, LOL).

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Tom K. wrote a couple different versions of this story, most of which can be found on his blog or AJPL:

"Early during the mount of August 1892, shortly after Hermann’s arrival, the three began the organization of the expedition. Julia bought a team, wagon, and camping gear. Later they would find out the wagon and team was a mistake. The group departed from Phoenix on August 11, 1892 with little fanfare. At the close of the first day the party was camped along the Salt River south of the old Maryville crossing on the river. The second day they traveled eastward across the desert toward the western façade of Superstition Mountain arriving in the area south of Bull Dog Peak somewhere. At this point they realized the team and wagon would be useless in the mountains. They abandoned the wagon and decided to pack the team. The next morning they packed up the horses and started toward the northwestern end of Superstition Mountain in search of “La Sombrero.” According to Hermann Petrasch they camped in Needle Canyon just north of Weaver’s Needle for three weeks. Spirits were high among the three when they began their search, but the torturous summer heat began to take its toll.

Toward the end of the third week the expedition collapsed from exhaustion, lack of food and water. The search for the Waltz’s mine was abandoned and [the] three returned to Phoenix defeated and unsuccessful."

The Origin of the Lost Dutchman Mine Story - Apache Junction Public Library

By Tom Kollenborn 1979, 1999 The Superstition Mountain has served as a beacon to treasure hunters and the curious, attracting them from around the world. Fortunes have been made and lost in the search for the Dutchman’s Lost Mine, however the mine has never been found. Some claim the majestic...

www.ajpl.org

 

[Idahodutch]

Russ,

As far as I know, there wasn't a widely available map of the Supes that showed the pertinent canyons in much detail until the Florence Quadrangle was published, I think the first version was in 1902. It was surveyed in 1900.

There were military maps that showed some trails through there, but I don't think there were any floating around where the average citizen could get their hands on such a map.

By them having some sort of a map, I mean that someone told them they could access the area/get down around Weaver's Needle from the NW. It may have been drawn out for them on a piece of paper. It could've been Waltz, or someone after the fact like Bark or one of his cowboys. There were plenty of people around Phoenix who could've explained how to get in from the NW, and how the canyons were the same ones they were trying to access from the south.

This is just speculation based on Tom K.'s story about Herman's first trip in with Julia and Rhiney. But the route described by Herman leaves no doubt that they planned on heading in from the NW, and managed to do so without any trouble. (except finding out they couldn't get their wagon all the way in there, LOL).

Jim,
I don’t remember seeing any early map either, and I think you are correct. Maybe a military map showing some routes, and some waterways.

Coming in from the NW, it wouldn’t be to hard to follow weaver’s needle visually, into the core area, north of weavers needle …. Perhaps in the flat area just off the NW part of Bluff Springs Mountain, and Needle Canyon Creek, where I think you were talking about.

In 2009 we camped in that flat area. It was a nice spot for a campsite. Pretty out in the open though. The runoff wash (usually dry) from Bluff Springs mountain goes past on the north, as it goes west over to tie in to needle creek.

Needle Canyon is wide open through that part. It would be hard to hear someone breaking rocks, in that section of needle canyon.
A narrow section of canyon that has high flat walled cliffs as a backdrop, would be more like the area where Waltz and his partner would have been able to hear someone breaking rocks. 😉

Julia’s group may have went in towards Weaver's Needle going through the Parker Pass vicinity, and bushwhacking cross country, south of Palomino Mountain, keeping the needle in view as much as possible. 🤷🏼‍♂️

They could have gotten around the south end of Blacktop Mesa, and then went North…. down Needle canyon.
If there were no trails back then, that would probably have been a tough hike. 🥵

They would have been trying to work the monumented trail directions, but from the back end. The directions would have been in the back of their mind while hiking in there. They might have argued even 😂

From the monumented trail directions, they would have been wanting to be in a canyon going NORTH of weaver’s needle, looking for some tributary heading off to one side or another. They did not find the tributary.

If something similar to that is what happened, I can see why they missed finding the tributary, unless they actually hiked up Needle Canyon, and walked right passed it. 😩

It could have happened that way also. I remember going into the vicinity of the map, and everything looking different than I was expecting.

They literally could have hiked right passed it all.
According to Waltz, he left no trace of the digging.

And too bad about their wagon, 🥴
They had a tough trip 🥵🥸

On a side note, I am thinking like you, that Rhiney had been taking care of Julia, in every way he could 😁.
She was maybe looking for some financial security that Rhiney was not able to furnish 🤷🏼‍♂😟.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hey Russ,

There was a pretty good trail in existence from the First Water area to where they were going in Needle Canyon. Probably started as an Indian trail from Marsh Valley out to the First Water area. There was also the trail to and from Garden Valley, both to 1st water and also down to Marsh Valley...Black Mesa trl...here's a military map from 1868:

They wouldn't have had this map, but someone could've told them about the trails, or drew them a map. The "military trail" going west from the Frog Tank area actually went thru the Usery Mountains to the Ft McDowell ford over the Salt. Based on Tom K's description, that's the trail Julia and the Petrasch boys took after they left Maryvale (the Salt crossing over by the old Beeline Dragstrip). That old military trail went by within sight of Bulldog Peak, which Herman says they passed.

There were also some Mormon families that settled at Mormon Flat and Garden Valley for a short time, in addition to the cowboys, prospectors, explorers and military guys that would have been able to tell them about the trails in there.

Re: Rhiney and Julia, I think Bark may have just been being polite when describing their close relationship as an "adoptive mother" thing. That's how Bark was. But Rhiney had left AZ not long after his brother George died, and was off on his own, mining up in Washington when Emil left Julia. Rhiney high-tailed it back to AZ, and started helping her at the bakery. He was also on the Phoenix vol. fire department during this timeframe. Not a mere "boy" by any means.

I haven't ever heard it mentioned, but Rhiney wound up essentially owning the bakery (everything in it, but not the building space as it was rented) because Julia couldn't pay him $320 in wages due him, he also loaned her $140 on top of the back wages she owed him...Julia was in a bad spot and he helped her by taking ownership of everything in the bakery including the tables and chairs, candy jars, etc. in lieu of wages, and then loaning her money...if anything, Rhiney was an "adoptive father"

Somehow Julia was out of debt within a year....it's all documented...so the story of Waltz giving her gold as she was about to go bankrupt, sure sounds like it was true.

 

[Idahodutch]

Wow,
The military map shows a lot more than the one I remember showing.
You’ve done some fantastic research, and file keeping. I’ve had numerous mishaps with my research materials, and have lost much of what I used to have.

I’m grateful for what all you are sharing. The stories start to become more than just tales.
I didn’t know most of the info about Rhiney and Julia. I also have a little better view of Bark. (It wasn’t bad before… neutral I guess 🤓)

In looking at the military map, the trail was going East over Bull Pass and on down towards Marsh Valley, so they probably did NOT hike right passed his mine, but probably went over Bull Pass. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Some folk like to go see the wagon ruts of various parts of the Oregon trail, and I get it.
For me it was going and finding and/or seeing the parts of the LDM saga, out in the mountains.

The research you have been sharing, in my opinion, adds much to bringing the stories to life. 👍😁

Thanks Amigo.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Russ,

It's the stories about the people involved that always hook me...I don't know why but I find it interesting. One time I took the old Globe city directories and spent a day driving around to every address for Rhiney I could find in them. Sadly, all the places are gone now...but there was one house next door to the address from his naturalization papers that was sort of like company housing for the Old Dominion Mine...so you can see what the house he lived in must've looked like. The houses were all the same. He rented a room from some lady there. I don't know why the house is gone, just a blank lot now, maybe it burned or was condemned/bulldozed.

I've always been impressed that Julia stuck fast in Phoenix after being left there, in debt, by her husband. She could've ran out on her debts, but she stayed there and sorted it all out. I have no idea how she did it, other than Waltz really did give her some gold. But she had a hard time of it there for a few years. As far as I know, she paid all the debts that her husband no doubt incurred. By her actions, she seems to me to have been a decent person.

So, getting back to 393Stroker's point...that Julia had the best chance and perhaps her interpretation of the directions was at fault...this seems to have been the case with the Petrasches as well...sounds to me like Rhiney knew what Julia did, and Old Pete swiped Julia's map, and no doubt Herman saw this material as well...

It seems to me that there was something very important missing from those directions...OR...as 393Stroker indicates, some critical part of those directions was badly misinterpreted by all four of them.

 

[Idahodutch]

Russ,

It's the stories about the people involved that always hook me...I don't know why but I find it interesting. One time I took the old Globe city directories and spent a day driving around to every address for Rhiney I could find in them. Sadly, all the places are gone now...but there was one house next door to the address from his naturalization papers that was sort of like company housing for the Old Dominion Mine...so you can see what the house he lived in must've looked like. The houses were all the same. He rented a room from some lady there. I don't know why the house is gone, just a blank lot now, maybe it burned or was condemned/bulldozed.

I've always been impressed that Julia stuck fast in Phoenix after being left there, in debt, by her husband. She could've ran out on her debts, but she stayed there and sorted it all out. I have no idea how she did it, other than Waltz really did give her some gold. But she had a hard time of it there for a few years. As far as I know, she paid all the debts that her husband no doubt incurred. By her actions, she seems to me to have been a decent person.

So, getting back to 393Stroker's point...that Julia had the best chance and perhaps her interpretation of the directions was at fault...this seems to have been the case with the Petrasches as well...sounds to me like Rhiney knew what Julia did, and Old Pete swiped Julia's map, and no doubt Herman saw this material as well...

It seems to me that there was something very important missing from those directions...OR...as 393Stroker indicates, some critical part of those directions was badly misinterpreted by all four of them.

Good morning Jim,
There are a couple things that I think came into play, that messed up their efforts.

There is a third, but I don’t really give much weight to it, and that is the part of the legend where Waltz gave Julia one set of directions, and gave Holmes a different set of directions.

On this 3rd thought, it has to disregard the fact that Waltz was doing everything possible to get Julia to the spot.
In the months that Waltz was getting Julia tutored on how to find “his mine”, he apparently forgot to tell her about the clues from the Holmes manuscript ….. or did he. 😉

The view of 4-peaks lining up to look like one peak ….. there are the “German Clues” that hit on that one. That 4-peaks clue is the confirmation clue. It confirms to the viewer that he IS in the correct spot, and that the hidden camp IS in the canyon below.

So it isn’t due to Holmes getting different directions 🧐🥸

Here are 2 things that might have hindered things for them.

> After the failed attempt to follow the monumented trail, it appears they went around, never again to attempt the monumented trail.

If they didn’t follow the trail over the spine of the mountain, and then back down into a north/south canyon ….. past weaver’s needle.
Not before…….

Had they picked the wrong north/south canyon to follow northward, they might have hit a dead end, at the NW end of Bluff Springs Mountain.

Or

They might have picked the correct north/south canyon, but the fact that Waltz buried his mine EXTREMELY well, that he literally left no trace. They like many others after, perhaps simply walked right past his mine site, never recognizing it. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Julia and cohorts perhaps never made it to the view spot ….. for confirmation 😵‍💫.

The mine was concealed to well, that it doesn’t look like anything is there.

The one thing Waltz said HAS to be found, in order to find his mine.

His hidden camp.

The view spot confirmation must not have happened for them, and hence no hidden camp, and hence no gold 😩

We are talking about this, only because I saw the directions from Holmes manuscript.
To go through the saddle on up to the low ridge, and look north to see the view.

Once site confirmation happens, then it’s just a matter of uncovering his mine…
The mine is directly below the marker Waltz put on top of the burial site. He shows the marker drawn in on the Waltz Map.

Julia didn’t find the confirmation view spot, is my best guess. My speculations as to why, are speculative 🥴😁

 

[rk85044]

soooo many things seem strange about the chain of events regarding Julia's only outing to find the mine...like who was the doctor she went to get......who was the child born that day the Dutchman died....and why the time lapse between the Dutchman's death and this only excursion.....was it strictly finances?.....And why did Julia have to sell the one thing the Dutchman saved for her?...her store?.....what....she couldnt get a loan with collateral against it?....to fund the trip? Really...I read the days after the Dutchman died....the entire town nearly dug up his land...leaving holes every where trying to find a cache....So her getting anyone to back her was not on the table? Really?.....And just what did she get for selling her business..that she owned outright.....How much?...Anyone know?.....and was it only worth some horses....a wagon....food...guns and ammo and supplies?...Anyone know what this cost was?.....And why wait until August?...as everyone knows here...it is the densest...hottest...the most humid time of the year.... with rolling monsoons popping up all over....and you know they knew about the weather....So...were they in a race with another person or party to get there first?....This seems more believeable...as the other party had to be Holmes....and what did Rhiney and Hermann really know about the Supes?....nothing?....If so..they could not find a trusted packer to hire or cut in?......maybe...maybe not...but the route they chose seems to be one of secrecy....as they avoided the Bark ranch completely....a lot of questions that would be great to have answered...but i dont think we will ever really know....just saying.....

 

[Idahodutch]

Good morning Jim,
There are a couple things that I think came into play, that messed up their efforts.

There is a third, but I don’t really give much weight to it, and that is the part of the legend where Waltz gave Julia one set of directions, and gave Holmes a different set of directions.

On this 3rd thought, it has to disregard the fact that Waltz was doing everything possible to get Julia to the spot.
In the months that Waltz was getting Julia tutored on how to find “his mine”, he apparently forgot to tell her about the clues from the Holmes manuscript ….. or did he. 😉

The view of 4-peaks lining up to look like one peak ….. there are the “German Clues” that hit on that one. That 4-peaks clue is the confirmation clue. It confirms to the viewer that he IS in the correct spot, and that the hidden camp IS in the canyon below.

So it isn’t due to Holmes getting different directions 🧐🥸

Here are 2 things that might have hindered things for them.

> After the failed attempt to follow the monumented trail, it appears they went around, never again to attempt the monumented trail.

If they didn’t follow the trail over the spine of the mountain, and then back down into a north/south canyon ….. past weaver’s needle.
Not before…….

Had they picked the wrong north/south canyon to follow northward, they might have hit a dead end, at the NW end of Bluff Springs Mountain.

Or

They might have picked the correct north/south canyon, but the fact that Waltz buried his mine EXTREMELY well, that he literally left no trace. They like many others after, perhaps simply walked right past his mine site, never recognizing it. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Julia and cohorts perhaps never made it to the view spot ….. for confirmation 😵‍💫.

The mine was concealed to well, that it doesn’t look like anything is there.

The one thing Waltz said HAS to be found, in order to find his mine.

His hidden camp.

The view spot confirmation must not have happened for them, and hence no hidden camp, and hence no gold 😩

We are talking about this, only because I saw the directions from Holmes manuscript.
To go through the saddle on up to the low ridge, and look north to see the view.

Once site confirmation happens, then it’s just a matter of uncovering his mine…
The mine is directly below the marker Waltz put on top of the burial site. He shows the marker drawn in on the Waltz Map.

Julia didn’t find the confirmation view spot, is my best guess. My speculations as to why, are speculative 🥴😁

I got carried away, and misspoke a little bit. 😵‍💫
After seeing the view of 4-Peaks looking like one peak, there is the little thing of finding his hidddn camp, that Waltz said is below the view spot, down in the canyon….

The hidden camp is part of measuring out the distance to the mine….. not more than 200’ from the camp directly across the canyon.

Then it’s just a matter of uncovering his mine.
It took quite a few years to locate the hidden camp. Like almost 15 years. It was not until after discovering the Waltz Map, that the hidden camp was found. The Map shows locations of things in relation to each other, when applied to the region in the field.

So really there are (2) things …..
> the confirmation of being in correct region is seeing the view of 4-peaks as one peak.
> locate the hidden camp below the view spot down below in the canyon.

Then the measurement can be applied …. Directly across the canyon not more than 200’ to his mine.

It certainly lays out just as the directions say.
I was not able to be there on site the last trip, but it looks like maybe the logs collapsed enough for some of the rock pile to slip down into the tunnel opening.

Last I heard, the guys were going to clear away some more loose material around the tunnel opening, to prevent more big rocks from sliding down into the opening.

I suspect the vertical tunnel is about 8’ (give or take) down where it reaches his mine.

Waltz had enlarged the opening of the tunnel by about a foot, all the way around, to leave a shelf, down about 5’ - 6’ down. Maybe a foot or so more of support rock under the shelf.

My health is preventing me from going in anymore.
SpartonOC was part of the last trip, and wants to go back in. I can’t do it.

It’s a free country, anybody can go see or go move rocks. Just remember it is a wilderness area, and there can be consequences for lack of adherence to it.

I’m my mind, it is sort of splitting hairs …. If we’re just removing loose rock from a pile of rocks, then we are not really digging, but just moving some rocks, that someone else previously stacked up. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I didn’t ask, because I was just moving some loose rocks. I am confident that the rangers or whoever, would not see it the same way. 😬🥸
——————————————————————-
rk - I saw your post, and the story is a mess. 😵‍💫😁

I think everyone can relate to your frustration, and those still here, have all had to decide …. to like it, or lump it … but it is what it is. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I hope you find some peace about it. 😁👍
Idahodutch

 

[PotBelly Jim]

RK85044,

We've all been there...but rest assured that the answers to most, if not all, of your questions exist either on this forum, in books, or in public records that you can access.

For example, consider this timeline compiled from various sources that can be compiled without relying on old legends or stories, which can be confusing and contradictory...

Early 1885 – Julia owns a coffee shop and ice cream parlor called “Phoenix Coffee Stand and Ice Cream Parlor”

August 1885 – Julia helping with new business opened by her husband Emil, and Alex Steinegger, Emil’s brother in law, called “Vienna Bakery”

17 Apr 1886 – Arctic Soda Fountain ordered on credit for the Vienna Bakery from Tuft & Co. of Boston, MA (the one that Waltz supposedly helped Julia pay off later)

01 March 1887 – Steinegger buys out Emil Thomas. He is now sole owner of the Vienna Bakery. The soda fountain (and responsibility to make payments on it) stays with Emil Thomas, as he plans on opening a new store.

April 1887 – Emil and Julia open the “E.W. Thomas Ice Cream Parlors” which was also listed as a confectionary.

September 1889 – Emil changes the name of his store to the “Phoenix Restaurant”.

March 1890 – Emil abandons Julia and leaves Phoenix for Centralia, WA. Julia takes over running the restaurant but finds it’s heavily in debt and discovers that her husband hadn’t been making their home and other real estate mortgage payments on time.

May 1890 – Rinehart Petrasch loans Julia $140 and agrees to take ownership of the contents of the restaurant for $320 in back wages owed to him.

Somehow, within a year, Julia has paid all her debts and is successful enough to be expanding her restaurant in a new location:

May 1891 - Phoenix Daily Herald (28 May 1891) Page 3 Column 2

"The soda water, fruit and confectionary business built up within the past few years by Mrs. J.E. Thomas has become so extensive, that her present quarters proved altogether inadequate. The large and commodious rooms between Jacobs & Co. and The Capitol, on Washington street have therefore been leased. Everything in the way of refreshments, mineral waters, ice cream, oranges, lemons, fruits and candies of all descriptions will be found here. Cool alcoves and prompt attention are provided for all who seek rest and recuperation in this most inviting retreat."

In addition to successfully operating her restaurant, Julia takes boarders at her house on W. Jackson St.

August 1891 – Julia files for divorce from Emil, stating abandonment and having to pay off various debts left by her husband, without his help.

October 6th, 1891 – Julia’s divorce from Emil granted

October 25th, 1891 – Jacob Waltz dies in Julia’s home on W. Jackson St. at 6:00 A.M.

October 26th, 1891 – Jacob Waltz is taken to the City Cemetery by Rinehart Petrasch and is buried at 10:00 A.M., about a mile west from Julia’s home, next to the grave of Rinehart’s brother George Petrasch, who died in 1885.

Spring of 1892 – Julia decides to sell her business to Phillips and Legatt, another restaurant across the street from her location. This appears to have been finalized by July of 1892. There is no indication that Julia is in financial distress as a reason for selling out.

August 1892 – Julia is reported in the papers as having just searched for a lost mine.

July 1893 – Julia marries Albert Schaffer

15 October 1894 – Rinehart had left Phoenix some time before and is now mining on the Upper Verde river in Yavapai County. His brother Herman is also there.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Getting back to 393Stroker's OP, about the best we can do is look at 1) The directions she gave to Bick; 2) The maps she used to sell; 3) where Herman reported they looked on their first trip into the mountains; 4) Where Bark reported finding Julia and Rhiney, apparently sometime before #3;

While Julia's map isn't drawn to scale, nor does she have a handle on how far the Salt is from Weaver's Needle, I think we should consider that it's her best reconstruction of either the parchment map and/or directions given to her by Waltz, AND, her perception of where the mine should be, based on the above.

We can also dismiss the map outright as either fake or misdirection, but doing so doesn't give us any insight into where she thought the mine should be...so if we accept the map at face value for purposes of discussion, where does she seem to be placing the mine?

 

[Idahodutch]

Jim,
I never looked at this map, in the light you’re talking about.

Julia found out about the hogs right off. 🥴
But the “start here” spot looks to be where she meant to go on that first trip. I think it represents the location she had in her mind for where the monumented trail head was.

The next opening to the right, might be over by Barks, and the two could converge over by the 3 pines.

The trip with Herman, coming in from the West, or left and above the “hogs”, crossing a ridge shown north of Weaver’s Needle, could represent Bull Pass.

The 3 pines and water, could be near Bluff Springs Mnt, and White Rock Springs.

There are caves in real life at the base of the bluffs at the East wall of Marsh Valley. 😳

That puts the mine off to the area west and north in her mind. 🥸🤷🏼‍♂️
Somewhere in the maze of canyons in that vicinity. 😁

My imagination probably has large amounts of influence in the results. 🤓

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Hey Russ,

There was a pretty good trail in existence from the First Water area to where they were going in Needle Canyon. Probably started as an Indian trail from Marsh Valley out to the First Water area. There was also the trail to and from Garden Valley, both to 1st water and also down to Marsh Valley...Black Mesa trl...here's a military map from 1868:
View attachment 2259752
They wouldn't have had this map, but someone could've told them about the trails, or drew them a map. The "military trail" going west from the Frog Tank area actually went thru the Usery Mountains to the Ft McDowell ford over the Salt. Based on Tom K's description, that's the trail Julia and the Petrasch boys took after they left Maryvale (the Salt crossing over by the old Beeline Dragstrip). That old military trail went by within sight of Bulldog Peak, which Herman says they passed.

There were also some Mormon families that settled at Mormon Flat and Garden Valley for a short time, in addition to the cowboys, prospectors, explorers and military guys that would have been able to tell them about the trails in there.

Re: Rhiney and Julia, I think Bark may have just been being polite when describing their close relationship as an "adoptive mother" thing. That's how Bark was. But Rhiney had left AZ not long after his brother George died, and was off on his own, mining up in Washington when Emil left Julia. Rhiney high-tailed it back to AZ, and started helping her at the bakery. He was also on the Phoenix vol. fire department during this timeframe. Not a mere "boy" by any means.

I haven't ever heard it mentioned, but Rhiney wound up essentially owning the bakery (everything in it, but not the building space as it was rented) because Julia couldn't pay him $320 in wages due him, he also loaned her $140 on top of the back wages she owed him...Julia was in a bad spot and he helped her by taking ownership of everything in the bakery including the tables and chairs, candy jars, etc. in lieu of wages, and then loaning her money...if anything, Rhiney was an "adoptive father"

Somehow Julia was out of debt within a year....it's all documented...so the story of Waltz giving her gold as she was about to go bankrupt, sure sounds like it was true.

What was a day's wages back then?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Phoenix got electrified around 1884 and refrigeration was not a big thing until later. How did she operate an ice cream parlor? NOTE: I fully admit to only a quickie search for that information.

RK85044,

We've all been there...but rest assured that the answers to most, if not all, of your questions exist either on this forum, in books, or in public records that you can access.

For example, consider this timeline compiled from various sources that can be compiled without relying on old legends or stories, which can be confusing and contradictory...

Early 1885 – Julia owns a coffee shop and ice cream parlor called “Phoenix Coffee Stand and Ice Cream Parlor”

August 1885 – Julia helping with new business opened by her husband Emil, and Alex Steinegger, Emil’s brother in law, called “Vienna Bakery”

17 Apr 1886 – Arctic Soda Fountain ordered on credit for the Vienna Bakery from Tuft & Co. of Boston, MA (the one that Waltz supposedly helped Julia pay off later)

01 March 1887 – Steinegger buys out Emil Thomas. He is now sole owner of the Vienna Bakery. The soda fountain (and responsibility to make payments on it) stays with Emil Thomas, as he plans on opening a new store.

April 1887 – Emil and Julia open the “E.W. Thomas Ice Cream Parlors” which was also listed as a confectionary.

September 1889 – Emil changes the name of his store to the “Phoenix Restaurant”.

March 1890 – Emil abandons Julia and leaves Phoenix for Centralia, WA. Julia takes over running the restaurant but finds it’s heavily in debt and discovers that her husband hadn’t been making their home and other real estate mortgage payments on time.

May 1890 – Rinehart Petrasch loans Julia $140 and agrees to take ownership of the contents of the restaurant for $320 in back wages owed to him.

Somehow, within a year, Julia has paid all her debts and is successful enough to be expanding her restaurant in a new location:

May 1891 - Phoenix Daily Herald (28 May 1891) Page 3 Column 2

"The soda water, fruit and confectionary business built up within the past few years by Mrs. J.E. Thomas has become so extensive, that her present quarters proved altogether inadequate. The large and commodious rooms between Jacobs & Co. and The Capitol, on Washington street have therefore been leased. Everything in the way of refreshments, mineral waters, ice cream, oranges, lemons, fruits and candies of all descriptions will be found here. Cool alcoves and prompt attention are provided for all who seek rest and recuperation in this most inviting retreat."

In addition to successfully operating her restaurant, Julia takes boarders at her house on W. Jackson St.

August 1891 – Julia files for divorce from Emil, stating abandonment and having to pay off various debts left by her husband, without his help.

October 6th, 1891 – Julia’s divorce from Emil granted

October 25th, 1891 – Jacob Waltz dies in Julia’s home on W. Jackson St. at 6:00 A.M.

October 26th, 1891 – Jacob Waltz is taken to the City Cemetery by Rinehart Petrasch and is buried at 10:00 A.M., about a mile west from Julia’s home, next to the grave of Rinehart’s brother George Petrasch, who died in 1885.

Spring of 1892 – Julia decides to sell her business to Phillips and Legatt, another restaurant across the street from her location. This appears to have been finalized by July of 1892. There is no indication that Julia is in financial distress as a reason for selling out.

August 1892 – Julia is reported in the papers as having just searched for a lost mine.

July 1893 – Julia marries Albert Schaffer

15 October 1894 – Rinehart had left Phoenix some time before and is now mining on the Upper Verde river in Yavapai County. His brother Herman is also there.