Springfield
Silver Member
Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?
Good post. This legend is completely based on hearsay, purportedly much of it from Waltz himself. Waltz told people things about the origin of his hoarded gold, even on his deathbed, but we can't know (yet) if any of those things were the truth or all of it was disinformation. You can bet those he told things to were not totally forthcoming later.
There does seem to be circumstantial evidence of pre-settlement Mexican mining in a number of locations in central Arizona, perhaps in many locations including today's Superstitions. The ore from all these early discovered oxidation zone deposits were likely rich or very rich. Waltz certainly was aware of this, and if he wanted to deceive, he would have had an easy time of it, pegging 'his mine' to a hidden Mexican workings, 'in the Salt River Mountains'. There are probably a number of concealed Mexican mines in the area. One of them may be Waltz's. Even if none of them are, they would still be worth locating.
There is no reason to expect Waltz was any different than other people - he would have lied to protect his secret. Even towards the end, he may have lied to the Julia camp - we don't know. On his deathbed, he may have lied to Holmes - we don't know. We are told he was remorseful and guilt-ridden at the end - if his gains were ill-gotten, perhaps this would have been a further reason to leave the source of his guilt hidden. We don't know. Based on human nature, we have no reason to assume he told the truth to anyone.
mrs.oroblanco said:I would say that, at some point, either Waltz lied, or, much like the conversations here - things that happened have been stretched, turned, things eliminated and god knows what else.
First - one has to to decide just who they want to believe. If you believe Sims Ely (which, by the way, some credit is given by Helen Corbin as to his corroboration), it was Weiser, not Waltz, who "rescued" Peralta and started the old ball rolling for the mine.
If you read the Holmes manuscript - neither Waltz nor Weiser even KNEW a Peralta. In fact, the Holmes manuscript says what about Weiser? Nothing. In fact, what it says (shortened version), is that Waltz was on a prospecting trip to the Picket Post area, decided he didn't like it, started back, met up with Indians, lost his outfit and escaped. Came across some Mexicans who KNEW where there was a mine that Pedro Peralta had made 3 expeditions to, complete with soldiers, wives, children and livestock, who were demolished by the Indians, with only a 12 year old boy escaping (that boy was one of the 3 Mexicans that Waltz met up with after the Indian mess on his return trip from Picket Post to Fort McDowell, and went to the mine with them on his first trip). Oh, and it also mentions Waltz bringing lumber and building a rocker box. It also mentions that Holmes had followed Waltz into the Supes, and Waltz considered killing him.
The story was supposedly told to Holmes and Roberts.
Then, there is the Storm version, complete with deerskin map and Barry Storm's own signature and Rose's version. (and many, many other stories after Waltz died).
So, how do you pick and choose. More than one person has spent many, many years interviewing and taking copious notes and gathered piles of evidence.
As far as I can tell, the best bet is to take only the things that correspond to all reasonable accounts, and put the other things - not out of your mind - but on the back burner.
Keeping this all in mind, yes, there is "more likely" and "less likely", but, really, how can you determine who's story is "more likely" true?
According to the Holmes manuscript, the mine was already dug 4 feet across - and Waltz, after working it, went and cut timbers and placed them 6 feet down, filled the rest with rock, etc, and added a trap to kill anyone who messed with it. I haven't heard of any stories of prospectors with missing body parts. (and traps don't reset themselves).
So----what do all the stories have in common? One of the investigators/writers (and Bark) took notes, and came up with about 40 points that they considered valid and corroborated.
But, again - has it been found?
Beth
Good post. This legend is completely based on hearsay, purportedly much of it from Waltz himself. Waltz told people things about the origin of his hoarded gold, even on his deathbed, but we can't know (yet) if any of those things were the truth or all of it was disinformation. You can bet those he told things to were not totally forthcoming later.
There does seem to be circumstantial evidence of pre-settlement Mexican mining in a number of locations in central Arizona, perhaps in many locations including today's Superstitions. The ore from all these early discovered oxidation zone deposits were likely rich or very rich. Waltz certainly was aware of this, and if he wanted to deceive, he would have had an easy time of it, pegging 'his mine' to a hidden Mexican workings, 'in the Salt River Mountains'. There are probably a number of concealed Mexican mines in the area. One of them may be Waltz's. Even if none of them are, they would still be worth locating.
There is no reason to expect Waltz was any different than other people - he would have lied to protect his secret. Even towards the end, he may have lied to the Julia camp - we don't know. On his deathbed, he may have lied to Holmes - we don't know. We are told he was remorseful and guilt-ridden at the end - if his gains were ill-gotten, perhaps this would have been a further reason to leave the source of his guilt hidden. We don't know. Based on human nature, we have no reason to assume he told the truth to anyone.
*****post.
