mrs.oroblanco
Silver Member
- Jan 2, 2008
- 4,356
- 427
- Detector(s) used
- Tesoro Lobo & Garrett Stinger
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
What a surprise, huh?
Personally, though, I prefer quality over quantity.
B
Hello RoyOroblanco said:gollum said:No way to know for sure Roy.
Read Waltz' statement to Rhinehart Petrasch where he said that:
.........but he would point out the trail over the mountain from there and Julia and Rhinehart would have to go in by themselves to get the CACHES.
That tells me that at the time of his death he still had multiple caches hidden just over a mountain from the Board House.
Best-Mike
Hmm, then what about this, quote
Chapter 8 Page 98 of Ely's Book <1966 edition>The mine and cache are in those mountains you see over there to the east, the Superstition Mountains. My partner and I took the gold out of the mine, as I've told you, and we made three caches-two of them small, one large. Before leaving the place, after I saw my partner was gone, I removed the gold from one small cache. And I went back once-long after the Apaches killed my partner-and brought the gold away from the other small cache. But the large cache is still there.
Isn't it possible that someone simply added an "S" to "cache" in your extract? Remember, Ely was one of EDIT only two VERY FEW of our published sources ever to actually interview both Julia and Reiney, and as a general rule the older sources are usually correct. I wonder where and why the one remaining cache became multiplied?
Roy
FEMF said:Hello Roy
You keep asking for Ore samples for you to match up with Dick's gold in white quartz match box, Right! But Jacob Waltz said that he had never seen anything like that Ore! You just had to hit the Ore with a hammer and the gold simply fall out. Now me all know gold in quartz has to be pulverized to retrieve it. Just asking? Was there multiple reasons why Jacob gave that Ore to Dick, if he did?
FEMF
P.S. I think the number of cashes has been answered by first hand information!
<Full article online at http://www.superstitionmountain.info/chronicles/2008/01_14_08.html>Contemporary storytellers and Dutch hunters talk about surviving samples of Waltz’s ore. They talk about comparison tests and the documents associated with these tests. There has been a tremendous amount of credence placed on the comparison of samples supposedly belonging to Jacob Waltz or those allegedly to have been found in the Superstition Wilderness Area. The stories and their source are based on faith. If facts are to be based on subjective information, at best then, objective information is generally lost. The question still remains, is everyone telling the truth? When an honest man accepts the story of another person and he bases it on trust this is still subjective information. Is this why nobody has found the infamous Dutchman’s Lost Mine? Basically this has always been my thesis.
<snip>
Just maybe the candle box of rich high-grade ore under Waltz’s death bed was nothing more than a prospector’s cache for hard times, not proof of the existence of a fabulous gold mine in the Superstition Mountains.
Hello RoyOroblanco said:FEMF said:Hello Roy
You keep asking for Ore samples for you to match up with Dick's gold in white quartz match box, Right! But Jacob Waltz said that he had never seen anything like that Ore! You just had to hit the Ore with a hammer and the gold simply fall out. Now me all know gold in quartz has to be pulverized to retrieve it. Just asking? Was there multiple reasons why Jacob gave that Ore to Dick, if he did?
FEMF
P.S. I think the number of cashes has been answered by first hand information!
Hola amigo,
To your first part, while I would be thrilled to have a sample of the ore in hand to personally examine - I would prefer a geologist to do the comparison; I am not an expert in geology and could be fooled. There are many types of gold ore, even some that are considered somewhat "exotic" and it would be entirely logical for Waltz to state that he had never seen ore like he got from this mine, as this type of ore is not common in Arizona at all. The most common type in AZ is epithermal siliceous, which is also most often in shallow pockets that pinch out. I have heard that the University of Arizona has quite an extensive library of gold ore samples from Arizona mines, almost complete, against which any "possible" ore sample could be compared for a match.
The gold ore in quartz that you can just "hammer" to remove the gold was referred to by the old-timers as "free milling" gold; other types are well known but more difficult to extract the gold, such as sulphates, refractory ores, tellurides etc.
As for the reason(s) why Waltz gave the ore to Holmes, of course we only have Holmes word on this but he was to use it to finance his search for the mine, with the understanding that he would do the right thing by Julia and Reiney. Perhaps there were other reasons as well, but it would be pure speculation on my part to guess what they would be.
I get the impression of a little frustration over my "demand" for an ore sample but really amigo this is the only way this mystery can really be solved in a scientific way. Early Dutch-hunters dug holes in so many places where they believed their "clues" or some hot tip would fit that it often happens today that someone finds one of these old prospect holes and concludes it must be the Lost Dutchman mine. There are also real mines in the Superstitions, especially off to the east but silica and gold within the official "Wilderness Area" (which is against the Wilderness Act by definition but I digress) so it is very easy to make a mistaken conclusion about the Lost Dutchman. Plenty of folks disagree with me on this point (needing an ore sample) and my word doesn't carry so much weight, so if a particular site seems like a winning candidate the issue doesn't hinge on my personal standard.
To give an example, the lost Breyfogle mine has been mentioned before; an expert compared Breyfogle's ore to high grade ore from the Amargosa gold mine (in CA) and stated it is identical, so for ME, this settles the question of where the lost Breyfogle was. It may be hopeless to get an ore sample from the LDM, especially with the legal constrictions on any rock collecting in the Wilderness area, but perhaps good photos would do if someone were to find some. Side note here for lost mine aficianados, but the ore from Breyfogle assayed even higher in gold than Waltz's did. <Breyfogle's assay came back 50% gold! The Amargosa mine produced a LOT of gold before it shut down. >
Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco
Oroblanco said:For the benefit of our readers whom are not posting, here is what we are talking about.
Waltz's matchbox and a piece of similar ore
Compare to a sample of Epithermal gold ore, this example from the Olinghouse mine in Nevada but has typical characteristics, note color
Another example of Epithermal gold ore, this from New Zealand
Epithermal gold deposits can be VERY rich too, like this example shown, the big drawback being that they typically pinch out at shallow depths. A good number of 'skeptics' dismissed Waltz's mine as an epithermal deposit which would most likely be just a rich pocket, which he emphatically denied, and the actual mineral grain size tells the difference and shows Waltz was correct. Hypothermal gold deposits do not commonly pinch out at shallow depths, most often they run to considerable depths, like the old timers' "chimney" description.
Oroblanco
Hi Roy
That Ore from the Olinghouse mine looks waxy like its gold in chalcedony? not quartz? Look close on the upper left side between two gold bands.
That's funny because I was wondering last week if gold is ever found in metamorphic rock? Thank you again Roy
FEMF
cactusjumper said:Mike,
"I have been told (a couple of years ago) that occasionally what Tom K states publicly is not necessarily the same as he says privately. I think the same can be said of most Dutch Hunters (actually any treasure hunters) who write books and articles on the subject."
While that may be a true statement about Tom, I would say it only applies to his opinions, not any facts he may publish. As a historian, Tom can, in many cases say......"Hell, I Was There".
Assumptions that people make about Tom Kollenborn, based on what they hear from others, can be pretty far off the mark.
Take care,
Joe
Hi Roy
That Ore from the Olinghouse mine looks waxy like its gold in chalcedony? not quartz? Look close on the upper left side between two gold bands.
That's funny because I was wondering last week if gold is ever found in metamorphic rock?
Hmmmmmm he he he An actual author in our ranks, hmmmm again!
Oroblanco said:So what about those caches? How many are there still to be found? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco