marks on antique box

[Red-Coat]

here is the other box, gold? with turtleshell and miniature painting and signed

This box appears to be a compact that would have held something like rouge, or possibly a ‘patch-box’ (boîte à mouches or 'box of flies') that would have held small pieces of paper, silk or velvet, often in fanciful shapes such as hearts or stars, stuck to the face as a form of make-up. These were used by ladies as artificial beauty spots on the cheek, chin or forehead, and also to conceal things such as smallpox scars or acne and popular between the 16th – 18th centuries.

Although the painting on the box has the inscription “Peter Als. Copenhague 1763" the date is spurious and it's not a signature as such. The painting is based on a work by the French artist Jean-Honoré Fragonard titled “Le Chiffre d'Amour” (also known as “The Souvenir”). It depicts a young woman engraving her lover's initials onto a tree trunk while her faithful dog looks on:

Fragonard painted the original scene sometime between c. 1775–1780, so the 1763 date cannot be correct. The attribution is for the Danish artist Peder (Peter) Als (1725-1775), and note also that ‘Copenhagen’ is written in French. I would be sure that this is a rather later piece produced in imitation of earlier boxes, with the inscription as a homage to (not a forgery of) the works produced by Als. My guess is that it’s from the 1800s, and I see no sign of any marks to indicate it might be gold. Still a very nice box though.

The box may have well have also been produced in Germany, or possibly in France. It was common for German boxes to be finished by enamellists and decorators in France.

 

[rockcollect]

This box appears to be a compact that would have held something like rouge, or possibly a ‘patch-box’ (boîte à mouches or 'box of flies') that would have held small pieces of paper, silk or velvet, often in fanciful shapes such as hearts or stars, stuck to the face as a form of make-up. These were used by ladies as artificial beauty spots on the cheek, chin or forehead, and also to conceal things such as smallpox scars or acne and popular between the 16th – 18th centuries.

Although the painting on the box has the inscription “Peter Als. Copenhague 1763" the date is spurious and it's not a signature as such. The painting is based on a work by the French artist Jean-Honoré Fragonard titled “Le Chiffre d'Amour” (also known as “The Souvenir”). It depicts a young woman engraving her lover's initials onto a tree trunk while her faithful dog looks on:

View attachment 2259113

Fragonard painted the original scene sometime between c. 1775–1780, so the 1763 date cannot be correct. The attribution is for the Danish artist Peder (Peter) Als (1725-1775), and note also that ‘Copenhagen’ is written in French. I would be sure that this is a rather later piece produced in imitation of earlier boxes, with the inscription as a homage to (not a forgery of) the works produced by Als. My guess is that it’s from the 1800s, and I see no sign of any marks to indicate it might be gold. Still a very nice box though.

The box may have well have also been produced in Germany, or possibly in France. It was common for German boxes to be finished by enamellists and decorators in France.

question remains who is copying who. many artists made the same depiction prints oils etc. here is another example : https://helenstoreyantiques.com/pro...y-french-engraving-miniature-dog-and-mistress must have been a popular depiction.

 

[Red-Coat]

question remains who is copying who. many artists made the same depiction prints oils etc. here is another example : https://helenstoreyantiques.com/pro...y-french-engraving-miniature-dog-and-mistress must have been a popular depiction.

Fragonard's original painting “Le Chiffre d'Amour” is known to have been painted sometime between 1775 and 1780 and is in the Wallace collection in London. It’s quite a famous picture and took inspiration in part from a best-selling novel titled “Julie, ou la Nouvelle Héloïse” by Jean-Jacques Rousseau that had been published in 1761. In the story, the heroine Julie carves her lover's initials into a tree and Fragonard adapted this moment for his painting, with the lady carving a letter ‘F’ as a hidden signature.

Anything later than that is a copy or an adaptation of Fragonard’s work by another artist (of which there are many such works all the way through to Victorian times, often unsigned and unattributed), or a copy of a copy. Note that the one you linked is mirror-imaged and from the late 19th Century, around 100 years later than Fragonard's original. The inscription on your box is not a signature. As far as I know, although Peder Als is and was known by his German and Anglicised name “Peter”, he signed with his actual Danish Christian name “Peder” or just abbreviated it to a "P", with his surname.

 

[rockcollect]

For the first box, I can only repeat what I already said. I believe these are marks for a Berlin piece, probably from the first half of the 1800s, with the second mark likely being a tax-related Prussian mark used for precious metals. As far as I know, marks like this would have been used on both silver gilt and gold, but there is no specific mark to say the piece is gold, or a maker mark that that can be specifically attributed the Berlin makers Francois-Claude Théremin and Frères Jordan.

It’s common to see serial numbers stamped on these kinds of boxes, either as an inventory/style number, or to ensure that individual component parts were properly matched during their final assembly (in which case the same number usually appears on all of the parts.)

To go further, you need it to be looked at by an expert.

Hello Red coat, well i got big news. I showed the boxes to a well known local antique dealer and they have taken a look at them and said it was 100% certain gold and that i found something very rare. They did an big offer but i am thinking about it.

 

[Red-Coat]

Hello Red coat, well i got big news. I showed the boxes to a well known local antique dealer and they have taken a look at them and said it was 100% certain gold and that i found something very rare. They did an big offer but i am thinking about it.

That's great! If he knows it to be very rare then he must have at least some idea who made it, when, or what the marks mean. What did he say?

 

[rockcollect]

That's great! If he knows it to be very rare then he must have at least some idea who made it, when, or what the marks mean. What did he say?

I was quite impressed by the offer. And forgot to ask further questions. But we are still in negotiations. First, they want to determine if it could have been stolen. If they give the green light, I will ask about the carat and age and maker. I have decided to keep the blue box, though, because it is the most valuable. I will sell the one with the painting on top because it contains less gold and has a lesser value.

 

[rockcollect]

That's great! If he knows it to be very rare then he must have at least some idea who made it, when, or what the marks mean. What did he say?

AI-overzicht



A maker's mark featuring "crowned crossed laurels" most often indicates a late 18th-to-early-19th-century origin, frequently associated with high-quality European luxury goods such as Hanau goldwork or French export and guarantee stamps. [1, 2, 3]
These motifs point to a few specific possibilities:

• Hanau (German) Gold Boxes: Many late 18th-century gold and enamel snuff boxes feature a cartouche with crowned and crossed laurels. These were often produced in Hanau, Germany—a major hub for luxury gold and enameling. [1, 2, 3]
• French Import Marks: In the post-1838 era, French import and guarantee stamps often incorporated elements like crowns, laurel branches, and other civic or master smith hallmarks. [1]
• Custom Maker's Signature: In some antique pocket watches and jewelry, crossed laurel branches topped with a crown symbolize victory, and were used as a personal maker's signature. [1]