What's new

Misconceptions in the Language Usage of the 1810-1820

johnnyrev

Full Member
Joined
May 30, 2023
Messages
104
Reaction score
30
Golden Thread
0
In about 1822, Morriss received a box containing letters that had been written around 1820. If you examine the Declaration of Independence, which was created around 1776 and used to decode the C2 in the 1800s, you'll notice that the language is quite different from what we use today. If you are trying to decipher the Beale Ciphers and your text contains 2001 words, there might be an issue!

Wiki ref
The letters also contain several English words, such as "improvise", not otherwise recorded before the 1820s in English but used from French from 1786 in the New Orleans area, and stampede (Spanish) "an uproar". Beale's "stampeding" apparently first appears in print in the English language in 1832 but was used from 1786 to 1823 in New Orleans in French and Spanish.

The French and Spanish languages were spoken in the area West of the Mississippi River for 300 years before Beale wrote a letter to Morriss. You will discover a few words that represent the place where you have been living for the past five years, whether you realize it or not!

giphy.gif
 
In about 1822, Morriss received a box containing letters that had been written around 1820. If you examine the Declaration of Independence, which was created around 1776 and used to decode the C2 in the 1800s, you'll notice that the language is quite different from what we use today. If you are trying to decipher the Beale Ciphers and your text contains 2001 words, there might be an issue!

Wiki ref
The letters also contain several English words, such as "improvise", not otherwise recorded before the 1820s in English but used from French from 1786 in the New Orleans area, and stampede (Spanish) "an uproar". Beale's "stampeding" apparently first appears in print in the English language in 1832 but was used from 1786 to 1823 in New Orleans in French and Spanish.

The French and Spanish languages were spoken in the area West of the Mississippi River for 300 years before Beale wrote a letter to Morriss. You will discover a few words that represent the place where you have been living for the past five years, whether you realize it or not!

giphy.gif

Context.

But weren't the Beale party from back East?
We'd also need/want to know who created and who used the code to cipher.
Then or firstly where they were writing/coding from to answer your question and if location mattered more than who was doing the writing.

Then...What was the source of an alleged document used to code by?.
A government document copied by hand doesn't account for inflection.
A verbal reading translated to paper could. But wouldn't make it an accurate copy. And who memorized the entire declaration?
THAT would allow some grievous error to creep in.

The Beale parties camp doins are scarcely documented.
The leisure of ciphering and declaration copy and more seems a busy project ignoring the rest of the labor and hair raising environs.
These were back Easterners after all wanting to return home. Not take on the perils of the West for entertainments sake.
Monied folks. Not desperados. And the callouses on thier hands debatable. Right along with the ink stains.
 
Context.

But weren't the Beale party from back East?
We'd also need/want to know who created and who used the code to cipher.
Then or firstly where they were writing/coding from to answer your question and if location mattered more than who was doing the writing.

Then...What was the source of an alleged document used to code by?.
A government document copied by hand doesn't account for inflection.
A verbal reading translated to paper could. But wouldn't make it an accurate copy. And who memorized the entire declaration?
THAT would allow some grievous error to creep in.

The Beale parties camp doins are scarcely documented.
The leisure of ciphering and declaration copy and more seems a busy project ignoring the rest of the labor and hair raising environs.
These were back Easterners after all wanting to return home. Not take on the perils of the West for entertainments sake.
Monied folks. Not desperados. And the callouses on thier hands debatable. Right along with the ink stains.
In the year 1817, New Orleans had been integrated into the United States for a span of 14 years, paralleling the status of St. Louis. One might wonder why there is an assumption that the Beale Party solely originated from the Eastern states. It's important to consider that the guides they enlisted in St. Louis were well-acquainted with the terrain they were navigating, particularly the route leading to Santa Fe!
 
In the year 1817, New Orleans had been integrated into the United States for a span of 14 years, paralleling the status of St. Louis. One might wonder why there is an assumption that the Beale Party solely originated from the Eastern states. It's important to consider that the guides they enlisted in St. Louis were well-acquainted with the terrain they were navigating, particularly the route leading to Santa Fe!

Beale papers account. Eastern group.
Hey I'm open to influence of others on the way West and back. I just don't imagine it as likely.
Given watering and acquiring food and other unanticipated or weather or clime created changes...It's a wonder many others didn't note the activities of such a party. especially heavily loaded wagons and the condition of the stock pulling them.
It takes deliberate effort to keep a horse decent . Mules can be pinched more on feed but they aren't going to kill themselves either.
Any pushing them would mean what? (It would mean people noticing).
Now a guy is waving the D.O.I. around his portable writing lapdesk and trusting others to look out for hostilities and the weather and the route and possibly angry mine owners following the heavy loaded wagons of the group HE was in charge ofs interests ; all while he focuses on multiple ciphers?? So much for secrecy . Yet no one of the group mentioned the D.O.I.? No one along the routes noticed anything unusual?
If they stole a chicken or a manure pile they wouldn't have been noticed? Thin ribs post civil war weren't quite forgotten quite yet.
All that gold and hungry desperate folk were just too ignorant to find it. It took a wealthy group on a Western hunting trip to stumble upon it?



But whatever. Who do you have in 1885 creating a cipher ? And where is the individual(s) position on the continent?
A St. Lewis guide later made the cipher? A trader in Santa Fe? A trapper? Charles B. Hayward before he returned back East to Illinois the following year?

[After Beale made multiple trips to stock the hiding place, he then encrypted three messages: the location, a description of the treasure, and the names of its owners and their relatives. The treasure location is traditionally linked ]

When it gets to Sherman and Ward and 50 cents...we're back East.
When Beale secured the treasure he then encrypted.
We don't have accounts of Beale wrassling the Decleration of Independence and ciphers round ye olde campfire tworts Sante Fe.
Treasure secured where per hints? Back East.

We have the "Beale papers" being sold to raise money for the post 1883 fire efforts.
Who sold the "Beale treasure"?

1753680234710.webp
 
Beale papers account. Eastern group.
Hey I'm open to influence of others on the way West and back. I just don't imagine it as likely.
Given watering and acquiring food and other unanticipated or weather or clime created changes...It's a wonder many others didn't note the activities of such a party. especially heavily loaded wagons and the condition of the stock pulling them.
It takes deliberate effort to keep a horse decent . Mules can be pinched more on feed but they aren't going to kill themselves either.
Any pushing them would mean what? (It would mean people noticing).
Now a guy is waving the D.O.I. around his portable writing lapdesk and trusting others to look out for hostilities and the weather and the route and possibly angry mine owners following the heavy loaded wagons of the group HE was in charge ofs interests ; all while he focuses on multiple ciphers?? So much for secrecy . Yet no one of the group mentioned the D.O.I.? No one along the routes noticed anything unusual?
If they stole a chicken or a manure pile they wouldn't have been noticed? Thin ribs post civil war weren't quite forgotten quite yet.
All that gold and hungry desperate folk were just too ignorant to find it. It took a wealthy group on a Western hunting trip to stumble upon it?



But whatever. Who do you have in 1885 creating a cipher ? And where is the individual(s) position on the continent?
A St. Lewis guide later made the cipher? A trader in Santa Fe? A trapper? Charles B. Hayward before he returned back East to Illinois the following year?

[After Beale made multiple trips to stock the hiding place, he then encrypted three messages: the location, a description of the treasure, and the names of its owners and their relatives. The treasure location is traditionally linked ]

When it gets to Sherman and Ward and 50 cents...we're back East.
When Beale secured the treasure he then encrypted.
We don't have accounts of Beale wrassling the Decleration of Independence and ciphers round ye olde campfire tworts Sante Fe.
Treasure secured where per hints? Back East.

We have the "Beale papers" being sold to raise money for the post 1883 fire efforts.
Who sold the "Beale treasure"?

View attachment 2218671
In the fall of 1821, TB made his second trip back to VA, buried the second stash and stayed with Robert Morriss until the Spring of 1822. Four months in Lynchburg would have been plenty of time to create the ciphers, write the letter/story and put it in a locked box.

TB could have used a rolled up copy of the DOI but more likely used a version printed in a book.
 
In the fall of 1821, TB made his second trip back to VA, buried the second stash and stayed with Robert Morriss until the Spring of 1822. Four months in Lynchburg would have been plenty of time to create the ciphers, write the letter/story and put it in a locked box.

TB could have used a rolled up copy of the DOI but more likely used a version printed in a book.
That's what the story indicates which seems plausible. If the story is made up then it was the anonymous friend in Lynchburg.
 
The claim that French and Spanish were spoken in the area west of the Mississippi River for 300 years is not entirely accurate. While both languages were present in the region due to colonial rule and settlement, the 300-year period is more reflective of Spanish presence and influence, particularly in Texas.French influence was significant, especially in Louisiana, but it was not dominant for the entire 300-year period.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

Spanish Presence:
Spain claimed and controlled vast territories west of the Mississippi River, including present-day Texas, New Mexico, and parts of Colorado, for a considerable period.This led to the widespread use of the Spanish language in these areas.

French Presence:

France also had a significant presence, particularly in Louisiana, which included areas both east and west of the Mississippi River. The city of New Orleans, founded by the French, became a major center of French culture and language.

Overlapping Periods:
The Spanish gained control of Louisiana (including the territory west of the Mississippi) from France in 1762, and then the U.S. acquired it through the Louisiana Purchase in 1803. So, while both languages were spoken, the timeframes of their dominance varied.

Linguistic Landscape:
The languages spoken in the area were not limited to French and Spanish. Various Indigenous languages were also spoken, and a pidgin language developed in some areas due to the interaction of different groups.
Therefore, while both French and Spanish were spoken in the area west of the Mississippi River for a significant period, the claim of a 300-year dominance of both languages is an oversimplification. The Spanish presence was more extensive and continuous in certain areas, while French influence was more prominent in others, particularly in Louisiana
 
Beale papers account. Eastern group.
Hey I'm open to influence of others on the way West and back. I just don't imagine it as likely.
Given watering and acquiring food and other unanticipated or weather or clime created changes...It's a wonder many others didn't note the activities of such a party. especially heavily loaded wagons and the condition of the stock pulling them.
It takes deliberate effort to keep a horse decent . Mules can be pinched more on feed but they aren't going to kill themselves either.
Any pushing them would mean what? (It would mean people noticing).
Now a guy is waving the D.O.I. around his portable writing lapdesk and trusting others to look out for hostilities and the weather and the route and possibly angry mine owners following the heavy loaded wagons of the group HE was in charge ofs interests ; all while he focuses on multiple ciphers?? So much for secrecy . Yet no one of the group mentioned the D.O.I.? No one along the routes noticed anything unusual?
If they stole a chicken or a manure pile they wouldn't have been noticed? Thin ribs post civil war weren't quite forgotten quite yet.
All that gold and hungry desperate folk were just too ignorant to find it. It took a wealthy group on a Western hunting trip to stumble upon it?



But whatever. Who do you have in 1885 creating a cipher ? And where is the individual(s) position on the continent?
A St. Lewis guide later made the cipher? A trader in Santa Fe? A trapper? Charles B. Hayward before he returned back East to Illinois the following year?

[After Beale made multiple trips to stock the hiding place, he then encrypted three messages: the location, a description of the treasure, and the names of its owners and their relatives. The treasure location is traditionally linked ]

When it gets to Sherman and Ward and 50 cents...we're back East.
When Beale secured the treasure he then encrypted.
We don't have accounts of Beale wrassling the Decleration of Independence and ciphers round ye olde campfire tworts Sante Fe.
Treasure secured where per hints? Back East.

We have the "Beale papers" being sold to raise money for the post 1883 fire efforts.
Who sold the "Beale treasure"?

View attachment 2218671
Your opinion does not change the fact that Wikipedia has factual references for the two words, which have been used in North America since 1786, particularly west of the Mississippi River. Beale's "stampeding" and "improvise" would likely have appeared in newspapers in New Orleans. By 1803, New Orleans had indeed become a part of the United States. Perhaps you should read the Wikipedia entry; it may help you gain a better understanding of the two words in question and The Beal Papers.
 
Your opinion does not change the fact that Wikipedia has factual references for the two words, which have been used in North America since 1786, particularly west of the Mississippi River. Beale's "stampeding" and "improvise" would likely have appeared in newspapers in New Orleans. By 1803, New Orleans had indeed become a part of the United States. Perhaps you should read the Wikipedia entry; it may help you gain a better understanding of the two words in question and The Beal Papers.

Mu opinion and Wiki.
That's not something you want to hang your hat on.

I asked of you who made the ciphers ,and when and where. Why are you deflecting to my quoting a source of papers in 1885 so not to have it assumed I'm making it up?

Same stuff has been debated long. Yet here you are insisting misconceptions of language usage are a problem.

So far English translated to English are all I've seen.
What words who used where don't matter until you choose who where and when made the ciphers.

Use the search function here and research. That saves more rehashing of the same lack of traction when trying to fit something where it doesn't belong..

 
In the fall of 1821, TB made his second trip back to VA, buried the second stash and stayed with Robert Morriss until the Spring of 1822. Four months in Lynchburg would have been plenty of time to create the ciphers, write the letter/story and put it in a locked box.

TB could have used a rolled up copy of the DOI but more likely used a version printed in a book.
A sober concept.
All winter to defend less (not still be immediately responsible for a groups ability to breath and not leak blood) and the leisure to work a writing and ciphering project.
Even if not back East. But yes per the tale of the Papers ; Lynchburg was expected to be his winter quarters 21-22.
 
Speaking of opinion.

[Apr 11, 2015
For more info, Press Contacts, Film Makers with Shorts, and/or Screenplays for Documentaries in the works and serious inquiries into the company I own and direct, please use the following email address and contact info.

James Simpson
Eldorado Enterprises Inc.
(802) 923 - 6838
blueexplorer76@hotmail.com

In November, of 2014, while investigating numerous cyphers and codes, Amateur Codebreaker and Forensic Archaeologist James William Simpson, of Eldorado Enterprises Inc., from Princeton, NJ, deciphered sequences in numbering systems hidden in the Beale that correlate to the measurements of distances and degrees of inclination from a starting point, to locate the two troves. Finding direct relation to a converging point in the west, the starting point they charted their journey from, Simpson tracked the location to a well known area of Arizona, in the Superstition Mountains.
There in the mountains of AZ were found a series of stones, the ‘Peralta Stones’, that had been carved into a series of maps featuring a code scribed into the bottom of one of the stones, 2 = 3 – (mine symbol) – 18 = 7, a code that had eluded searchers for years. These numbers were found by Simpson to be the exact times that Beale’s men went on a 2 year contract, in a ‘perilous enterprise’, leaving for the mine in the 3rd month of March, arriving at the mine to dig for 18 months, returning one trove to VA, then returning to mine for another 7 months to return a second trove to VA, to return to be massacred in the valley, now named for the bodies found there. On these stones were statements in poorly translated Spanish that also said ‘Esto Bereda Es Muy Peligrosa’ (Perilous Enterprise), and ‘Busca Por El Mapa’ (Look For The Map), and also ‘Busca Por El Corazon'(Look for the Heart). Simpson discovered these were not all the same type of stone, or the same trail, as there were variances added to the map stones that matched in AZ, yet the heart stone descriptions did not match. It matched elsewhere, at the end of a 4 mile trail.
As the rest of the information at hand was given due value, the other codes on the stones and the images scribed became more apparent, including a western brand that read 8 BAR n BAR P, or 8 – n – P, which was found to be a code to signify a particular western cattle rancher’s brand. When formed into the metallic branding iron shape, this coded brand formed an image that appeared to look like the letters TJB, a family name brand from the area near the mines in AZ.
Seeing the direct coded markings etched into these stones, as derived from statements in the Beale Codes, and interpreting the stones as a map to the mine areas in AZ and the locations to ‘Walk The Line’ in VA as well, Simpson easily located the entire series of 8 mines in the Superstitions and the Vault that held the hidden troves they had robbed, while charting the direct course to the two locations in VA using codes in the Beale, listed as mileage and degrees of inclinations. Once the individual arrived at the location in VA, the trail stones were then followed from the church in Bedford, VA, to the area of the Heart. There the Latin Heart Stone is used to locate the two troves from the different terrain found described in Latin, and from the inscriptions (I) for the first grouping of stashes, and ((I)) for the second grouping of stashes. Note the unique marks on the stone has two different sets and individual counts for a number of personal stashes in each of the two areas in roman numerals denoting weights in pounds of gold and silver.
As the trail of mounting evidence was followed through the entire series of clues of the numerous carved mapping stones, and while using the Beale Codes as a guide to describe the actual affairs going on in both of these 150+ year old mysteries, these markers became more obvious to Simpson, matching a trail of stones that were laid by thieves, who were making their getaway from the area, after murdering their own labor, leaving the stones in scattered areas along a trail, yet planting others in key locations, to seem like they were attacked by Apaches. The other problem was they were crafted from a fairly modern era of tool making, from after the Apache made peace and surrendered, and one stone, the Horse Stone, was crafted from a type of White Granite that was only known to be found in VA. After reviewing the names in the Beale and their history, and noticing that all of the directions and charts were scaled and coded in a very cunning way, to leave hints for the simple minded to understand, and to confuse the intelligent, Simpson was able to pick up on their intended trail of deception, as they were planting information along the way to hide their identities behind a historical, and a faulted timeline of events, as one finds in the Beale. These overly obvious statements at times were clearly integrated into the Beale Codes in certain places to make the common man who wrote them seem more affluent, and from an older era, using types of records and information that were easily referenced by clerks in their offices and other locations around the country at the time in books.
Drafted to seem as if it was from an earlier time, the Beale was pre-arranged by the ringleader of the Arizona Land Grab, James Reavis, who both used the native Apache Tribes as a scapegoat for the murder of their 30 men while in AZ, and attempted to lay claim to the title to the land charter that was once owned by New Spain. In a failed effort to continue the affairs of Manifest Destiny in the west, during the eras of John C. Calhoun and Andrew Jackson, the KGC’s roots were being founded in a secret military order just outside of DC in the foothils of Bedford, VA, and were laid there in a Confederate Union, in ceremonies surrounding burning effigies, mocking the death of the Knights Templars of France. Using pseudo-religious occult ceremonies, and military orders and hierarchies, the Knights of the Golden Circle took archaeological stone carvings found in Bedford Basin, Nova Scotia, thought to be the works of early explorers found in the early to mid 1800’s, and crafted a faux Charing Cross legend surrounding a few acclaimed new ‘biblical discoveries’, to convince their followers they were God’s Chosen, following a trail of golden ‘speaking stones’ out west, in a religious order that was being guided to take over the entire southern US, and parts of Brazil, using Christianity as a guise.
While fueling vengeance for the Spanish American Wars, and filling thousands with a craze for gold, their intention was to remove the entire Native population from their lands, and relocate them to other areas, to secure certain areas for mining the richest claims in the country, like in Dahlonegha, GA, and the Spanish and Apache Mines in AZ. They sent numerous families out to the west using the printing press as a tool to inspire the ‘Gold Rush’ in California, while their intention was to relieve the gold and silver mines of AZ of their stores, while using this ‘Treasury’ to form a series of 8 Slave Trade Colonies, under the guise of numerous leaders and diplomats, businessmen, and even members of Congress and the White House Cabinet.
Having been employed as a Confederate Soldier and travelling to both Santa Fe, and to New Orleans, Reavis became familiar with the coding and mapping techniques of the Spanish and the markings in the cliffs, and the historical image of the previous Commanders of the times who were involved in laying the roots of the Secessionist movements were passed along amongst fellow Confederate Soldiers as tales to pass the time. Using these identities as covers for his post-Civil War affairs, Reavis was part of the operation to continue the secret order they were pledged to, under the strictest of terms, which were even listed word for word in military format in the Beale. Reavis swore an oath to the death with these men to keep their secrets. Although terms in the Beale can be used in a certain context of timeperiods of dialects and linguistic tastes in spelling in the Beale, leading one to believe they were much older affairs, the specific words ‘stampeded’ were used, while including a branding iron symbol in the stones. This is part of the hinting of the fact these are two different timeperiods discussed, and that the operation occured at a certain timeperiod closer to the later 1880’s, when cattle were brought out to the areas to be raised in ranches, not when New Spain was in control over the territories in the 1820-30’s.
Reavis was known by the Federal Authorities investigating him afterwards as a fraudulent Real Estate Agent working in St Louis, MO area, who concocted the entire “Don Peralta” story, and planted faked charters and land claims in city clerks’ offices around the country, including crafting faked identities of Spanish Nobility, so that when others were cross-referencing his filed claims for authenticity purposes of issuing the new US Titles, he would seem to be in the legal standing to be the person to inherit the entire valley of Phoenix, and parts of the lands taken from the Apache in the Tonto National Forrest during the expusions of the 1860’s. Arranged all on behalf of his previous argreements with Confederates, he was subservient to a higher group that never revelaed its identity, and commanded him through hidden coded messages in his division of the KGC after the Civil War. He was able to make one trip to AZ to secure the old Peralta Ruins, and from the work in the old Spanish Stone Cross maps found there from 1791, he was able to track the locations of their mines and vaults there. After he returned to St. Louis, he finished the rest of these tales, and prepared to hire each of the 30 men himself, with a few that were not keen to the execution of the offered contract in their perilous enterprise.
As they mined out west, they first crafted the map stones to show their trail, then returned to VA to select a place for their troves, carving the area’s terrain into the stone in Latin, to make all of the stones appear as if they were old Spanish Miners who were doing the digging and were found dead with the stones nearby, slaughtered by the Apache. This was the heart stone to be placed inside of the map stones, and marked with the locations and terrain descriptions on one side of the stone, as they placed a single trove in VA. Gathering the White Granite from the ridge in VA to craft the Horse Stone for an additional map overview of the areas, they returned for their second leg of their three part journey. When they formed their second location in VA, and buried the trove there, the second letter was delivered to the office of Mr. Morris, who then had in his possesion, the final coded map to the 2 areas, and the locality of the mines out west as described in the dates listed in the second letters. By reversing the movements on the US map to the focal point, one finds the “Locality of the Vault” they mined from to be located in AZ.
As they were searching for a way to show a whereabouts of the location to the person reading the Beale Codes, as Reavis feared the possibility of death or even arrest, they combined hints and direct cyphers into a storyline that could be published and sold to anyone in VA, while secretly alerting the families of these men and others in the area, so they could continue their agendas using the amounts left behind for their next of kin. After reading the tale and finding the bodies, they were to begin a new phase of driving the indian out, being inspired to continue to fight the ‘Savages’ with a cleverly crafted tale of their deceased children left for them to ponder. The Witch Stone can easily be seen as a reference to the invention of numerous Superstitions to keep people clueless.
When looking from the point of view of the Beale Codes alone, you see they created a “Key” that was hidden as the word SINJ, formed by the capital letters of a sentence that described the key to finding a location, a “Direct Object” to look for when in the area, being the ridgeline and the keyhole shaped area found at the end of the 4 mile path, where you are to insert the Heart Stone into the Map, to guide you to the final location via the english translations of the shapes they describe. While seeing this in a clear path, Simpson was able to interperet some markings, as well as finding a series of boulders along the way that featured unique carvings, showing these direct objects spoken about in the Key, formed in the shape of the areas’ surrounding treelines and rivers, complete with a few other terra formed workds thrown into grooves in the ground. When they chose the areas, they crafted the trails as seen from the tops of ridges, and from previous maps made from the times, showing the exact likeness of the terra-formed rivers, ridges and valleys as described in the Latin Heart Stone.
The physical clue to show you the direction to find the Heart, can be located through the charting of the course taken from the mines, using the stones and the decipherments that are printed in the letters, and if by chance the searcher was looking from the discovery of the box delivered to PA, by using the key by itself, combined with clues from tears in the original document, one could locate the series of markers and chart through the areas to the final locations, but would have trouble locating the two final troves. A person but was later verified scientifically to be chemical of origin, and not from the ink of the document. This was a hole chemically singed into a specific copy of the Declaration of Independence, hidden in a box with an actual skeleton key, with a single lens from a set of antique glasses in a leather pouch. Inside of the box, a false bottom was made to house the DOI, the key and eyepiece. This was a symbolic coded system to hint to the finder to ‘see through’, to show the location revealed, as the DOI was laid over the map of the area near Bedford County, VA. The rest of the cypher leads you through the clues using mapping directions to find all points of reference to the 2 troves’ final resting places.
Although they were able to make two trips to VA to bury the plundered ore that was mined quickly during their brief monopoly, and they were able to pass along hidden maps and clues, these troves were never recovered, until now, as the singed copy of the DOI was found in the late 1960’s at a Pennsylvania Flea Market, sold as a novelty and kept for years until a faded watermarked signature was noticed and the tears were further examined. The Peralta Stones were not found until the 1950’s, with numerous men losing their life searching blindly for these troves and mines in AZ, only to be scared off by the invention of the Confederates themselves, the Legend of the Apache Thunder God and the Black Hand, ‘protecting’ the mines. The KGC were so worried about loosing their territorial mines and funding resources in the area, that they crafted numerous legends around the mines, reporting through military reports, the deaths of many of their own men, who were actually killed in secret at the hands of the US Army. One legend was the feared ‘Black Hand of the Apache’, which was created by the KGC from a symbol dating to the latin phrase Mano Negro, as a fear tactic, so that Spaniards and Mexicans would think it was the Jesuits guarding their mines, and so that white settlers would fear the Superstition of an unknown enemy of ‘Angry Savages’, which was never actually verified to exist. This was made to intimidate all who saw it and were close to their operations.
Through further reseach into the numerous affairs of the KGC and the Confederate Army in the Southwest, it became apparent that the agent in charge in St. Louis was none other than the above mentioned James Reavis. The final clue derived from the ciphers messenger, implicates the famous Jacob Walz (Waltz), as an accomplice of these men, as the acclaimed Agent that delivered the final segments of the Beale Letters, James B. Ward himself, the same extremely tanned gentleman featured in tales in the Beale.
It is well known that there was an extensive ‘Business Plot’, and a Black Hand, another name for the extortion rackets they formed to take over these lands. This by no means was a single person’s plot though, as Reavis was acommpanied by a few other associates locally, who were known to hide a stash of magical ore and plated gold bars, without ever having filed a mine claim in the area. After seeing the levels of secrecy, the anonymity practiced, and the use of rotating shifts of men, Simpson was able to interpret these ciphers as a cover story, and completely document the movement of every stage of their illicit operation, including the murder
Click to expand...
]
 
Same stuff has been debated long.
Yep! I remember!

The presence of these words in North America contradicts the expert's claim that they didn't exist before a certain time. Essentially, he made a hasty statement based on minimal research after visiting a library, which has now exposed his lack of thoroughness.
 
That's not something you want to hang your hat on.
  • Samuel Johnson’s Dictionary (1755): Johnson defines “to improvise” as “to compose or utter without premeditation,” indicating the word was recognized in English by the mid-18th century.
  • Literary Usage: The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) cites examples of “improvise” in English as early as the late 17th century. For instance, John Dryden’s 1697 translation of Virgil’s Georgics uses “improvise” in the context of spontaneous poetic composition.

The term "stampede" derives from Mexican Spanish "estampida," meaning "an uproar" or "crash," and was adopted into English in the early 19th century, specifically recorded from 1823 according to sources like Etymonline and the Oxford English Dictionary. This timeline suggests that "stampede" and its variant "stampeding" were not part of standard English vocabulary before 1823. Given Beale's alleged presence in the West in 1822, it's unlikely he encountered the English word "stampeding" in that year, as it was not yet documented.
 
The claim that French and Spanish were spoken in the area west of the Mississippi River for 300 years is not entirely accurate. While both languages were present in the region due to colonial rule and settlement, the 300-year period is more reflective of Spanish presence and influence, particularly in Texas.French influence was significant, especially in Louisiana, but it was not dominant for the entire 300-year period.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

Spanish Presence:
Spain claimed and controlled vast territories west of the Mississippi River, including present-day Texas, New Mexico, and parts of Colorado, for a considerable period.This led to the widespread use of the Spanish language in these areas.

French Presence:

France also had a significant presence, particularly in Louisiana, which included areas both east and west of the Mississippi River. The city of New Orleans, founded by the French, became a major center of French culture and language.

Overlapping Periods:
The Spanish gained control of Louisiana (including the territory west of the Mississippi) from France in 1762, and then the U.S. acquired it through the Louisiana Purchase in 1803. So, while both languages were spoken, the timeframes of their dominance varied.

Linguistic Landscape:
The languages spoken in the area were not limited to French and Spanish. Various Indigenous languages were also spoken, and a pidgin language developed in some areas due to the interaction of different groups.
Therefore, while both French and Spanish were spoken in the area west of the Mississippi River for a significant period, the claim of a 300-year dominance of both languages is an oversimplification. The Spanish presence was more extensive and continuous in certain areas, while French influence was more prominent in others, particularly in Louisiana
Do France and Spain share a border? Do you think the languages are very different in areas where they overlap?
 
  • Samuel Johnson’s Dictionary (1755): Johnson defines “to improvise” as “to compose or utter without premeditation,” indicating the word was recognized in English by the mid-18th century.
  • Literary Usage: The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) cites examples of “improvise” in English as early as the late 17th century. For instance, John Dryden’s 1697 translation of Virgil’s Georgics uses “improvise” in the context of spontaneous poetic composition.

The term "stampede" derives from Mexican Spanish "estampida," meaning "an uproar" or "crash," and was adopted into English in the early 19th century, specifically recorded from 1823 according to sources like Etymonline and the Oxford English Dictionary. This timeline suggests that "stampede" and its variant "stampeding" were not part of standard English vocabulary before 1823. Given Beale's alleged presence in the West in 1822, it's unlikely he encountered the English word "stampeding" in that year, as it was not yet documented.

Spanish was the coin of the realm.
Mexican independence was a strong undercurrent.
The Santa Fe trail barely established.
The N.W. was known (Pidgin helpfully mentioned prior) for Pidgin dialects more than farther South.
Hard to deny more existed elsewhere on perceived frontier which was basically the area occupied by Spanish speaking and native tongues though. Crossroads were/are crossroads. Trade was trade.

By the time the particular alleged time in /near Santa Fe is considered...Potential use of given words is less troubling. Mangled Spanish presented y non Spanish people? Had to have been. And the other way around.
As in given the turbulent political and social clime....The West Coast and S.W. under the undercurrent of coming war; stormy skies there were a long ways from Virginia.

Given the alleged load ; that jumping of to the West springboard town of Independence (or the other side of Mo.'s border even) would have been far enough from being hounded by ones backtrail to start caching.

I haven't settled on any papers being genuinely original and unedited.
Those sold for 50 cents were far removed from Sante Fe. At least until evidence any were sold there exists.
If written there why not sold there? Right to avoid being sliced by blades and dying. So why get caught writing them or carrying them there then?
A D.O.I. on your person when Mexico is teetering unrestfully on the edge of wanting independence could be taken as something more than guys out on a hunt for big game. Not everyone wanted Mexico to be one way or another. One encounter with the wrong Spaniard would be one too many.
 
Do France and Spain share a border? Do you think the languages are very different in areas where they overlap?
Did you take geograghy and social studies in your schooling?
 
A crude time line of red flags for the Spanish.
louis and Clark. Followed by the French letting the U.S. acquire Louisiana.(A big version .)
Pike. Pike stirred up more than dust.
General Wilkinson's shenanigans.
Distrust was prevalent.
How many Sabine river crisis's were there?
Adams Onus Treaty and former neutral zone.
Florida gone from Spain and the end of Spanish colonialism in sight. What did that due to Spaniards that were here for the cha ching? Right. Many of them hot footed back to Spain with thier cha ching.
Leaving Mexicans not exactly floating in wealth. But likely to be able to smell it.

Mexico fighting for independence.
Mexican suspicion would have to have been on high alert if D.O.I. wielding foreigners were encountered that were supposed to be hunting but were not.


1822.
What was Clark up to per President Monroe? (That almost relates to some claim of massacre.)

What does the timeline do for creative writers of the era?
Into the clouds of dust ; some created by men and others by uproariously brisk trotting buffalos's strode our Virginians.
Scratching in the earth unnoticed and loading wagons with gold. Emerging from the dust clouds to cross the Missouri river unscathed. Then after a detour back to Virginia to hide the gold ; go back to be obliterated..
 
A crude time line of red flags for the Spanish.
louis and Clark. Followed by the French letting the U.S. acquire Louisiana.(A big version .)
Pike. Pike stirred up more than dust.
General Wilkinson's shenanigans.
Distrust was prevalent.
How many Sabine river crisis's were there?
Adams Onus Treaty and former neutral zone.
Florida gone from Spain and the end of Spanish colonialism in sight. What did that due to Spaniards that were here for the cha ching? Right. Many of them hot footed back to Spain with thier cha ching.
Leaving Mexicans not exactly floating in wealth. But likely to be able to smell it.

Mexico fighting for independence.
Mexican suspicion would have to have been on high alert if D.O.I. wielding foreigners were encountered that were supposed to be hunting but were not.


1822.
What was Clark up to per President Monroe? (That almost relates to some claim of massacre.)

What does the timeline do for creative writers of the era?
Into the clouds of dust ; some created by men and others by uproariously brisk trotting buffalos's strode our Virginians.
Scratching in the earth unnoticed and loading wagons with gold. Emerging from the dust clouds to cross the Missouri river unscathed. Then after a detour back to Virginia to hide the gold ; go back to be obliterated..
Pack trains (what Becknell used in 1821): Becknell's 1821 pack train followed the Mountain Route via the Arkansas River through Kansas to near present Trinidad, Colorado, crossed through Raton Pass into New Mexico.
Wagon trains (introduced in 1822): In 1822, Becknell altered his route to find a trail more suitable for wagon trains so he could transport more trade goods

First Trip (November 1819) - 4,826 pounds total:


  • At 200 lbs per animal: 24-25 pack animals
  • At 250 lbs per animal: 19-20 pack animals

Second Trip (December 1821) - 3,195 pounds total:


  • At 200 lbs per animal: 16 pack animals
  • At 250 lbs per animal: 13 pack animals

The movement of goods on the Santa Fe Trail in 1821 proves that such journeys were possible.
 
Historical examples from that era provide valuable insight into the timeline of word documentation.
  • "Locomotive"**: This term originated with early steam engines in the 1800s, but it wasn’t widely recorded until the 1820s or 1830s, indicating a delay of about 10 to 20 years.
  • "Telegraph"**: While the term was utilized in the 1790s for optical systems, it appeared in dictionaries by the 1810s, suggesting a lag of approximately 10 to 15 years.
  • "Stampede"**: Though likely used in spoken language earlier, it was first documented in 1828, reflecting a possible delay of several years or more.
Based on these examples, it can be estimated that in 1820, it typically took around 10 to 30 years for a new word to be officially recognized in English after it began to be used. However, this timeframe is not absolute—it could be shorter for highly visible words or extend longer for obscure ones.
 
Pack trains (what Becknell used in 1821): Becknell's 1821 pack train followed the Mountain Route via the Arkansas River through Kansas to near present Trinidad, Colorado, crossed through Raton Pass into New Mexico.
Wagon trains (introduced in 1822): In 1822, Becknell altered his route to find a trail more suitable for wagon trains so he could transport more trade goods

First Trip (November 1819) - 4,826 pounds total:


  • At 200 lbs per animal: 24-25 pack animals
  • At 250 lbs per animal: 19-20 pack animals

Second Trip (December 1821) - 3,195 pounds total:


  • At 200 lbs per animal: 16 pack animals
  • At 250 lbs per animal: 13 pack animals

The movement of goods on the Santa Fe Trail in 1821 proves that such journeys were possible.

Sure.
A remuda of riding horses 2 per man. Then draft animals per wagon? Plus spares.
Plus grain. Or else rest at almost every decent grazing area. Of which there won't be enough quiet unnoticed ones.
Plus shoeing and maintaining harness of the draft stock and maintaining wagons. Not having them stolen at night or killed.
While the horses/mules could be eaten the party size would be demanding for groceries. Firearms to secure meat? Good way to get noticed.
Set up shop for weeks on end to scratch in the dirt or rest hungry overworked stock? What rich pocket of nonmigratory/nomadic game did they settle in unnoticed? Well monied Virginians did all that work and still hid the evidence of any buffalo they quietly killed ?

Say/guess a minimum of 75 equestrian animals. Passed off as a hunting party?
Besides the man and beast grocery requirements , you need meat you already have it.
You want to kill animals you don't have back East you don't need a wagon West to the ocean almost to do it.
During the alleged perilous adventure there were still woods bison and elk East of the Mississippi.
Once across the river numbers increased.


The tale isn't bad. But designed either by committee of cheap novel readers ; or a bottle a day of inspiration slightly plagiarized for multiple days. Nothing wrong with making up a story depending on the purpose.

When Morris is introduced the failed attempt at being clandestine is introduced and it gets worse from there. Logistics of outfitting the multiple trips , sustaining their crews and stock, and likelihood of going unnoticed seem to escape the author.
Networking with stock exchange or replacement and securing needed staples at intervals all expose traffic.
Then were the dwellings and camps along travel routes that would not miss the traffic of 75 plus sets of four feet and wagon rumbles and the attendant dust.
More than just homestead dogs would whistle.
Off trail discreet movement of such a party? Not hardly very farly.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom