Natural formations or artifacts?

[Scoob]

My dog was digging around a creek bed, playing in the water and she dug these up...any ideas? The two circular stone pictures are the same stone. I had to include the pup. She likes the exposure anyway

 

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[Scoob]

At the very center it seems as if there is a small ledge. The hole is surely tapered on both ends, wider on the outside gets skinnier towards the center

 

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[quito]

ok. let me see if I understand the ledge. does it terminate more like this ] like that ) or like this one turned sideways V

Which one of those 3 symbols resemble the center of the hole?

 

[Scoob]

More like a (

 

[quito]

Ok, we are getting somewhere now. Is it a sandstone or a hard stone? Sandstone will be kinda light and grainy, hardstone should be dense, heavier and smooth.

 

[Scoob]

I believe it's hard stone

 

[Charl]

Might not the nipples be water worn impressions of fossil crinoid stems?

http://www.catnapin.com/Fossil/Echinoidermata/crinoid_stem_impression_small1.jpg

Photo came from this page:

http://www.catnapin.com/Fossil/Echinoidermata/ffCrinoids.htm

There is also a class of artifacts known as donut stones, at least called that in California:

http://www.pcas.org/documents/Donut-shapedArtifact434.pdf

 

[quito]

Thanks Charl. I think you nailed it on the one piece. Chrinoid impression!

I still don't think from what I have learned of the other that is a whorl either. The ledge scoob tells of shouldn't be there. Should look more like the known piece in the last link you posted.

 

[GatorBoy]

It was immediately being dismissed as natural and stated as such..matter of factly by someone who the poster would have likely belived on the very first post..with no questions asked.
I thought that was not what should happen...either did TearsoftheMoon... so I did my best to not let it.
Sure glad I did.

 

[GatorBoy]

Regarding the rocks, I am going to say natural, none are man made. Cool, but natural.

The last one however while not manmade, has had mans hand involved.

Look familiar?
Calling something a rock when someone thought enough of it to get an opinion.... "rightful so" and not even explaining why is pretty rude especially to someone new.

 

[GatorBoy]

I should add that the whole report on the "doughnut stones" should be taken as a guess and concidered suspect.
They have a nearly exact duplicate of one of my atlatl weights labled as some magic religious stone..LOL.. good ole California.

 

[GatorBoy]

 

[GatorBoy]

Look at the "ledge" on any gorget...or similar object.
Its common knowlage in the archaeolical world that drilling through an object like that was done by starting on one side and finishing from the other.

 

[Charl]

Look familiar?
Calling something a rock when someone thought enough of it to get an opinion.... "rightful so" and not even explaining why is pretty rude especially to someone new.

i'll disagree on this point. If a person thinks it's a natural rock, I think it's fine to render the opinion that it's natural, a rock. As far as explaining why it's a rock, it is extremely difficult to actually do that in as few words as possible, without giving lessons in geological processes. If it's a fossil, sure, ID it as such. I do think one of the rocks showed fossil crinoid stem impressions, so might as well relate that possibility. Unless you are teaching differences between a geofact and an artifact in person, hands-on demonstration, it can be extremely difficult to explain why it is just a rock. I have experience and usually know right away if it's a rock. But no long mental deductive exercise in my mind is involved, I don't have to think about it. And that is what is so tough to teach, namely the understandings that are second nature to experienced eyes, but not so obvious to newbies. It's tough, sometimes telling someone it's a rock is the best one can do unless you are a geologist. JMO.

No one should feel obligated to explain the difference between a particular rock and rocks worked by man in an internet format. It isn't impossible, but when trying to educate a completely inexperienced individual, it is asking for a great deal.

 

[quito]

Bigger YAWN!!!!! Show me one banner stone cane drilled with a ledge in the middle then big shooter.

 

[Charl]

I should add that the whole report on the "doughnut stones" should be taken as a guess and concidered suspect.
They have a nearly exact duplicate of one of my atlatl weights labled as some magic religious stone..LOL.. good ole California.

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View attachment 775519

It was posted simply to point out other similar looking possibilities. In fact, we have such artifacts in New England as well,where they are simply called Hole Stone or Perforated Weight. The hole is always countersunk from both sides, and the artifact is usually interpreted as a type of weight. Nor would I simply dismiss the particular study from California, without much further study. They had logical reasons for their observations, which could be mistaken of course, but dismissing California archaeology because one item resembles your bannerstone is rather weak. Grooved weights, for example, had many uses that are not always apparent, bolas stones, net weights, etc. if you have done a study that provides evidence as to why we should raise our eyebrows on "good ole California" in the instance of this one report, just present it.

And of course, in fairness, the study represents an interpretation by human beings based on the evidence they obtained, as well as ethnographic evidence in all likelihood. It can be disputed, as most any interpretation can, but dismissing it as "good ole California" isn't really an argument against the particular study.

 

[GatorBoy]

Bigger YAWN!!!!! Show me one banner stone cane drilled with a ledge in the middle then big shooter.

Will a gorget work for you..YAWN!!

 

[quito]

I'm waiting. Btw that gorget is drilled in a different fashion. :-)

 

[quito]

You should quit while you are behind. You are just digging yourself a bigger hole now.

 

[Charl]

So, with this one comment, we go political and irritate every member left of the political center. For absolutely no reason at all. Your a good man, quito, you're better then that.
Your a good man as well, GB, there is no good reason for anyone to get personal. Stop and think guys. I don't know of any other forum where threads devolve so frequently as they do here.

This nation is in the midst of the most divisive culture/political war since the Vietnam era, making it real easy to generate anger between left and right. Such attacks in this climate, on an artifact forum no less, are provacative and out of place.

 

[GatorBoy]

Brilliant .. that's class!
I said nothing insulting.