NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owls Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

[TreasurdiggrNY]

NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

Hey Everyone,
This is ridiculous I just got a notice which is going out to all NYC MD Permit Holders. It states that Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park are now off limits to Metal detecting.

The use of a metal detector in either parks will result in the revocation of your permit, a summons, and other relevant violations.

I asked why, and was told that at Owl's Head park there are erosion problems around mature trees from metal detectorists digging around and cutting the roots of the mature trees.

I asked about Prospect Park and they said that they are enforcing the historical significance of the whole park and are concerned about the impact on the grassy areas.

When asked who I could speak to about this they stated the best thing to do would be to make a complaint via the NYC 311 system and the complaint would be directed to the appropriate person.

I have a feeling this decision was made hastily by the City without much thought and I think if they hear enough complaints they may change their mind.

I urge everyone to give a call to 311 and complain about this, tell your friends and family to do the same, and anyone else visiting the city and let's see if we can get this decision overturned. If they don't overturn it, they may think of other alternatives to the situation instead of just deeming an area off limits.

Glenn

 

[EZrider]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

WOW! thats a big hit! I called it in but doubt it will do much good. Once stuff like this happens it will soon snowball to other places.

 

[Joe G]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

Bummer...

Funny thing is MY permit says I can hunt at both places It'll never hold up in court

 

[Ricardo_NY1]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

Bummer...

Funny thing is MY permit says I can hunt at both places It'll never hold up in court

I'm sure they will not be on next year's list. I'm not familiar with Owl's head park, but I do know that Prospect Park is pretty big a place. I've been there and know that a good portion of it is just running paths etc. That they want to conserve historically significant areas is fine, but to close up the entire park is ridiculous. This is politics and private money and ideas being thrown around. Same thing that happened at Central Park. A Conservancy comes in with private money and all of a sudden private entities with huge bank accounts are making decisions for things that were built on with TAX payer's money.
I'm not sure what direction to proceed on here. On one note I believe, well, if it's limited to these two parks and this doesn't become a trend, so be it. At the same time, the whole thing reaks of stupidity that should be fought. It's a tough fight for many reasons.........

1) It would require the cooperation of all people who metal detect NYC and that would be difficult. How many are willing to take a day off or time from work? And follow up when needed? Most people I think have a take but not give back attitude.

2) And the fight cannot get dirty to the point where the city becomes agitated and pulls the permits out completely. I'm at work, so I'll follow up on this post later.

Ricardo

 

[EZrider]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

Ricardo is about right. What this is called is "Greenway". Its the new thing linking all the parks in NYC. Its not just historical but also about wildlife too. Native plants etc. Remember guys living and working here is like living and working in Disney world, very protected and very expensive. Hey Rick, what was the end result from your fine?

Bob

 

[Silver Fox]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

I received the notice today. When I saw who the envelope was from I thought that I was finally receiving a reply to my (non-answered email) snail mail letter requesting "special dispensation" to detect in Central Park's denuded area of which there are 3 huge areas that have not seen vegetation in many years and will never be seeded as these (at least) 3 areas are used for baseball, etc. As you know, some baseballers wear shoes with cleats which tears up the ground. But I was surprised at the content of the letter since I had never received such a notice before. In the past, the permist would just show less parks than the previous permit.

Since I never received a reply to my email and snail mail from Oneika Meyers who you know processes and issues the detecting permits, I contacted Neil Calvanese who is Vice President of Operations for the Central Park Conservancy. We spoke at length and I asked him that since the denuded areas were never going to be green why we couldn't detect on just the bare soil which, in reality, are sore-looking areas particularly the one across from Mt Sinai Hospital (approx. 99th St. The other 2 areas are right in front of Sheep Meadow (on the north of it), and on West 86th Street. All three ares are clearly shown on google satellite photos. I told him that as long as baseballers were allowed to tear up the turf with their cleats why couldn't we detectorists be allowed to dig and he just said that cleats are illegal! Do you see any Rangers enforcing this "statute"?

I couldn't convince Mr Calvanese and he actually told me that if it was up to him we wouldn't be able to detect in any of the 25 parks (after the 2 deletions). His reasoning was illogical. But, get this. After our conversation was over about detecting in parks, he actually picked my brain about the hobby of metal detecting asking where else I did it, what I found, etc. He said that his son was interested in getting a metal detector. Some chutzpah!

While it may sound noble to try to raise a stink about the deletion of Prospect and Owl's Head Parks, it won't come to any good. There are "powers" that we just can't go against, big socialite names in the city that feed the Parks Conservancy most of their dough. All that these people need is just a few photos of some sloppy retrievals, as I have witnessed in the past mostly from New Jersey detectorist who would come in groups, to show the judge and, bam!, all parks off limits.

So, while I'm not a loser, I'd rather lose 2 parks than the other 25. Although I was starting to research those historical areas of Prospect Park to visit it once again. Oh, well.

Erosion problems, yeah, right! How about dogs digging and no Ranger ever sees them? How about the impact of millions of pulltabs, screwcaps, cans, etc.? Call 311? The person answering will go bananas trying to direct such a call!

It's a nice thought, Glenn, but in our hearts we know better. Even if we were to file a complaint about dogs digging, cleated shoes tearing up the turf, parks vehicles driving on the grass and leaving deep ruts when it's muddy, or the mounted Rangers and cops also leaving deep holes from the combined weight of the horse and rider, etc., they still won't see us as deserving of permission to detect and will probably admonish us that we are fortunate in the first place and if we continue to raise a stink, permist will cease to be issued. I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Silver Fox

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

Sheesk I'm glad I'm not out there in NY right now Out here in our city parks, we are "off the radar", (not addressed either way. Either that, or no ones given it much thought). Best that it stays that way! I'd be afraid by fighting some lone instances, that it would rouse up more rules "to address this pressing issue!", etc...

 

[Ricardo_NY1]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

Hey Rick, what was the end result from your fine?
Bob

Hey Bob,
I'm still waiting on their response. They don't tell you right there and then, and instead mail you the decision. I could not "Read" this judge. No clue or hint as to her disposition. I do have a bad feeling about it, but it's a waiting game.

Regarding this parks getting yanked off the list...........I seriously hope it doesn't become a trend. This is why we need to do our best to erase our traces and use common sense in choosing where and when to hunt. Not to say let's hide from the public, but it would be good sense to avoid the more crowded parks during the summer, or position yourself away from view, as we do in places like PBP. I normally go straight into the woods. For this part of the year, I've been hitting some small quiet areas. The areas where we know there will be alot of people, we've made plans to hit them early or later in the evening. Also keep in mind that these parks people usually end their shifts at 3-3:30pm. After that, it's only the cops, and they don't give a flying F about us. But seriously, we need to use common sense and we need to erase as much evidence that we were there as possible. Leaving plugs behind with no grass or huge ones that look like crap will give these people all the ammo they need. For now, I think the best thing to do is wait and see where this goes next. Hopefully, somewhere down the line, if it is really necessary to approach these people, or as PHIL O said, to literally picket in front of the arsenal building, I hope we can all come together and show up. I have a feeling it would be a handful of people.

 

[Ricardo_NY1]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

I couldn't convince Mr Calvanese and he actually told me that if it was up to him we wouldn't be able to detect in any of the 25 parks (after the 2 deletions).

Ed,
I commend you on taking your time to reach these people. I've quoted you on the above, because it raises a question.........if not him.......then who is in charge? I doubt it is the person who processes and issues them. Personally, I would not share any information on what is found. The moment they realize what we find is the moment they'll consider things like modern silver archeological items or historical significance, and they'll yank the permits on those grounds. The biggest issue here is that there really aren't enough of us. If this was something affecting water bottle toting joggers in central park, there would be a huge yuppie attack on city hall and voices would be heard. When push comes to shove, I doubt we could round up a handful of people. There are many ideas to be thrown around on how to possibly reach some form of compromise with these people, but it would be difficult at best. One possiblity, as crazy as it may sound is to get an amount of media attention by something like the NY Post or a channel like NY1............with a charity event............I would pick any charity.......specifically the PBA (Police Benelovent Fund) or something for our FDNY. Something where a group of detectorists would get together like we did for the Tri-State area hunt, hunt out some clad neatly, and donate it to that cause. If we did something like that every year........guess what?.......we'd be in a great and better position to talk. It's not kissing ass........it's showing that the hobby is not just take and about digging holes. Revision: I think an even better approach would be to just get a permit to hold an event to present the donation, invite the charity over etc. Everyone could show up with their clad finds and bring it all together. I think the other idea could work against us if we get scrutinized on our digging So imagine this..........NYC Detectorists present donation to "Charity Fund X". I honestly believe that this would capture some media interest if it is done in the right way and for the right charity cause. The right way in my opinion would be to acquire an event permit for one of the parks listed on the MD'ing permit, and inviting our charity of choice to receive the donation, and inviting any interested media. If this is done for something that would go towards the police, FDNY or similar city charity, it would generate interest. Hell, we could even try getting coin star to chip in and match our donation by 8%

 

[TreasurdiggrNY]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

My only worry is that if nothing is said about these changes already made, they will not think twice about taking away more spots. If we make it known in numbers that we want our recreational space just like any other special interest group is entitled to, they may think twice about a lame decision in the future. I still encourage everyone to call 311 and make a complaint about it, if you know anyone else in the 5 boros, ask them to call too.
Glenn

 

[Silver Fox]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

Ricardo: When I originally wrote an email, and later a snail mail, I directed it to Oneika. I asked questions such as who do I contact to find out who and how writes up the Permits and agree on the conventions. I wanted the background on the process to see how they think and to use that to counter any grievances that limit us. I did not receive a reply to my email after waiting for two weeks. I called Oneika and she told me that did not receive the email (convenient reply!). So I printed the email and sent it off and waited again. About two weeks later I called her to find if she received the letter and if I was going to receive a reply. Her answer was that she first had to find out who to forward the letter to.

While waiting for her never-to-arrive reply I called Michael Dockett, Chief of the Urban Park Service. I waited a few days but he didn't return my call. I called him again and he directed his assistant to give me Neil Calvanese's name and phone number. I followed a chain of command instead of going over anyone's head. I would say that Neil is the last person on the list that is approachable, anyone higher either will not want to be bothered or will refer one back to the lower echelons. Metal detecting in the parks is a subject no one wants to address as far as giving us more than what has been given. Of course, this leads one to think: "Well, someone must have spent time on this issue if they went to the trouble of issuing permits with allowances and restrictions." But finding out who those people might be and trying to change their mind seems to be the holy grail for us. Maybe in a social situation where one can corner any of these individuals and present a well thought out case based on our experiences might you find a friendly ear that could result in favorable action. But sweet dreams are made of this!

I did not tell Neil that I detected for almost 20 years in Central Park and received only a couple of warning visits from the Rangers and I also did not reveal my thousands of coins, etc., retrieved in Central Park. I could have done so and then crowed about my never having anyone complain about properly-covered areas as that was one of my prides thanks mostly to pinpointing to almost a zero signal and then probing. I rarely had to cut a plug as the coins were almost always retrieveable with the probe.

I gotta be honest with you. While a lot of detectorists have learned to retrieve a coin without digging an unnecessarily large plug and afterwards make the area look good again, there are more detectorists who do not know proper plug cutting, proper retrieval and, worst of all, how to leave the dug area looking like no one dug there. I know that there are times when one can't be as careful as one might want to be but what I see in a lot of detecting videos is what the Parks Department could rail against even though it hasn't, so far, been stated. Besides, one can counter, what is the difference between a detectorist being a little bit sloppy and the parks' use of aerating machines? "Aerating machines remove plugs of soil from the turf area, thereby creating an artificial system of large or noncapillary pores by which moisture and plant nutrients can be taken into the soil. They also provide a breathing system through which carbon dioxide can escape from the soil and oxygen can enter the soil. A rapid intake in movement of water and air is recognized as a prime necessity in correcting damages to the turf caused by compacted soils." An area just serviced by one of these machines is a strange looking area with all of those open holes and the short, cylindrical dirt plugs lying all over the place.

Your idea for holding an event, etc., and Glenn's idea of calling 311 on the surface seem to have merit. But the reality is that there is no audience for our kind of thinking. Instead, we ought to use an idea already in effect in New York City and other cities across the nation: Critical Mass bicycle ride to the Arsenal and when we arrive in front of the arsenal with the Police hot on our trail, everyone pulls out their metal detectors and scream: "We want detecting rights in city parks!" The Police will confiscate the bicycles and issue citations, the Parks Department will cancel Permits, and while we stew in jail we can tell the press how unfair the New York City Department of Parks and Recreation is toward our hobby. Maybe we can have manufacturers' representatives get jailed with us and eventually, detectorists from all over the nation will have a sit-in in their parks ...

I know I got carried away for a moment there but I just don't see a favorable solution to our dilemma. Look, at least us here in New York City, we can still detect in 25 parks (out of 1,700!). When it gets down to one park, I'll be the first one there at the crack of dawn to reserve my swinging space!

Silver Fox

 

[Rd2nowr]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

After spending the last 10 minutes of my life, of which I will never be able to get back, I have just one thought for you poor souls living up North of the Mason-Dixon line...........STAY THERE!!!! No one has ever bothered me about digging a hole around here in my 175 year old town. Good luck!! Tim

 

[LI Tom]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

The best way to put pressure on the parks people is to complain to elected politicans,especially the city council(this really applies to NYC residents).Call them and write them.If there are up for election this year ,they will be more toady to you.If you call you will get an aide ,be insistant that they help.In these situations the squeeky wheel gets the grease and they will put the pressure on the parks people.

 

[EZrider]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

EZ there tim, im from Eagleville TN

 

[I_Dig_NYC]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

"Why don't they just mail us each a jar of Vaseline?" That's how my old union rep would start off the monthly meetings whenever the beauracrats tried to "stick it to us" raw. So assume the position fellas and take it like a man. And if anyone thinks that hosting some obscure charity event and contributing 30 bucks worth of rusty quarters and pennies to the billion dollar budgets of the fire department or police unions is gonna make a difference or attract media attention then you need to rethink the way this city works and was founded many years ago.

Unless each of us is willing or is capable of rubbing elbows with the powers that be, and contributing thousands of dollars to election campaigns, and helping to line the pockets of the powerful with some green, then don't even bother wasting your time. Or perhaps we could collect a million dollars for some fancy playground or monument installation.? Let's get real guy's. Not any one of us, or even all of us combined for that matter, has the power to influence the minds and decisions of the all mighty "MACHINE" that runs this city. Even if I had Bloomberg's billions I would not contribute $100,000 or even $10,000 to sway the minds of the parks department for the so called privilege of digging through trash for hours just for 1 silver quarter, a Wheat penny or a couple of silver dimes at best. I mean really, where are the Spanish Reales and the Colonial Coppers that guys across the country are digging up? What are we fighting for and crying over really? It's spilled milk. Where's the BIG loss here? When was the last time any one here found a Silver Trade Dollar or anything from the 1700's or early 1800's in one of the city parks? Few and far between, from what I have seen. And I for one sure am not impressed by whats being found in the ground of our parks. I have yet to see even one object of historical significance. All the real relics are buried forty feet below the skyscrapers of Manhattan.

History lesson #1: VIOLENCE ! It's what this country was founded on and it's what we use to maintain our power and instill the fear of god into the hearts and minds of all the other little countries of the world that are watching. That's what gets peoples attention and the only thing that will get us media attention. So drop the picket signs and bullhorns it will get you no where. You want to make a real change? Get militant. Strap a bomb to your back and they will ALL pay attention the media will have you plastered across every TV and newspaper in the world.

Prospect and Owl's Head are dead, time to bury them and move on. Next time I want to go on a real treasure hunt I sure as hell won't be depending on ANY of the city parks for a pay day. I will just get in my car and drive across the state line, down the shore or into the suburbs.

 

[I_Dig_NYC]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

The best way to put pressure on the parks people is to complain to elected politicans,especially the city council(this really applies to NYC residents).Call them and write them.If there are up for election this year ,they will be more toady to you.If you call you will get an aide ,be insistant that they help.In these situations the squeeky wheel gets the grease and they will put the pressure on the parks people.

That sounds like it would work good if only this was a small hole in the wall town somewhere south of the Mason Dixon line that no one ever heard of but that every one there knows your name.

Come on now, this is one of the biggest, most powerful cities in the WORLD guys. Not some small place where any Joe Schmo can just walk up the steps of city hall and get some satisfaction just because his wife's sister in law is married to the Mayors 3rd cousin.

If anybody plans on pushing the hand, or even getting the attention, of any of our politicians, by placing a phone call and complaining about an issue that affects less than one millionth of one percent of New Yorkers (example; ten guy's with metal detectors). Then I suggest you add this to your speech; Remind them that you or your organization contributes millions to his or her election campaigns. And cap that off by saying that you and your organization controls the vote of a few hundred thousand unionized working people and that there cooperation will guarantee they vote favorably to them. That will get your foot through the door.

 

[Ricardo_NY1]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

F'k it............I'm going metal detecting into Prospect Park with explosives strapped to my back & metal detector. I'll shoot a video before they shoot me!

 

[Silver Fox]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

el sniperoo

Goodbye everyone, thank you for coming but Elvis has left the building. Please take your belongings.

I_Dig_NYC, in a nutshell, you said it as well as it could be said. You, sir, know the meaning of the word "reality." We both said the same thing, slightly different, but the bases are covered. Central Park's been bery good to me but it's time to move on, to the other parks!

Silver Fox

 

[Silver Fox]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

F'k it............I'm going metal detecting into Prospect Park with explosives strapped to my back & metal detector. I'll shoot a video before they shoot me!

Wait! Ricardo, first give me your MINELAB and take my Land Star!

Silver Fox

 

[TreasurdiggrNY]

Re: NYC Takes Prospect Park and Owl's Head Park off the list of places 2 hunt

Well, I still say a voice needs to be heard, I am actually sick of hearing there is nothing we can do. The reasons for the shutdown have nothing to do with our hobby so if they review the reasons and the MD rules there is a chance it can be overturned. I took about 2 hrs out of my time today, elected myself your spokesman and emailed a letter to the Commissioner of Parks and to every NYC council member in all 5 Boros that had an email address posted on this web page.http://council.nyc.gov/html/members/members.shtml click on a Boro and every member is listed, click on each member and see if they have an e-mail. Here is a copy of the letter I sent,

Dear (Council Members Name Here),
I have been asked by a large group of New Yorkers who have a special interest in metal detecting NYC Parks to contact you regarding a recent notice to permit holders. The group I represent has high regards for the parks as a whole and are all permit holders who abide by the rules imposed by said permit. The notice states that Prospect Park and Owl's Head park have been removed from the list of parks we are able to enjoy our hobby at.
The notice had a number on it if you had questions regarding this decision. We called the number and were given various reasons for the decision. The reasons given have nothing to do with our recreational activities and we feel this decision was made unfairly. Many members of the group have lost valuable recreational space.
We, as a special interest group, would like to have this decision reviewed at which time we are sure it will be overturned. I am available anytime to discuss this matter with the appropriate Representative. My cell phone number is (furnished my number).
Sincerely,
Glenn (Last Name)