occams razor

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: occam's razor

Dell, you say: "You seem to imply that you believe you have proprietary, and censorship rights against people using electronic, or scientific terms without your approval?" No! Anyone can use them! Just let them make sense and be true to pass muster!

Ivan, when you can put out the electric shock of an electric eel, let's talk! And on top of that, you'll have all the electrical components of a metal detector (which maxes at a foot or two?), and I'll be a firm believer! c'mon!

Ivan, what do you do when some extreme occultist takes your explanations (your shark's example) and applies it to their own successes? Do you allow them to use this line of reasoning to distance themselves from things like casting spells? telling the future? If not, why not allow them the same lines? I'm still waiting for an answer on this. Your happiness/sadness test is all the same thing. You (the person waiting to see if the rods rotate or not) are simply subconsciously controlling them. The same thing occurs in md'ing! I've pointed out targets to well-wishing experimenters (people trying a new machine), and tell them "what do you think of this signal?" (knowing it sounds like deep silver on my Explorer). They reply "I dunno, it's kind of mixed" I dig up a deep merc, and they say "I KNEW it sounded like silver!!" Then I move over and flag another deep signal, this one I think is mixed, and might be an iron false. I tell them "what do you think of this signal?" They hee and haw on the same vein "sounds kind of mixed". Then we dig a deep rusty nail and they say "I KNEW it sounded like a nail!" You see how that's just selective memory? Dowsing is the same thing, just wishful thinking, where, when you finally find something, the dowsing did it!

 

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[aarthrj3811]

Re: occam's razor

I enjoy reading and learning from post both pro and con. It makes it interesting. I do not like to put people on my "ignore list". This week is the first time I have used this function. I feel like I have missed nothing and have been able to put some information on the forum that may help some Dowsers. Keep up the good work Urban Prospector...Art

 

[pepper]

Re: occam's razor

I've read this thread as hundreds of others have and I have to
admit I was ignorant but open minded to dowsing before even
visiting this subject.

Although, the more I read about it and the posts from dowsers the
more I'm convinced that there is more to it although there is no
scientific research to explain it just like there is none to explain the
paranormal phenomena although many whom were none believers
at one time then experienced it are now believers.

It's at this time I think I'll side with Albert Einstein of what he thought
about the authenticity of dowsing with a quote from him.

"I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as they do astrology, as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time."

My interpretation of the "human nervous system" would be the
magnetic or bio-electric field of the person doing the dowsing.

Pepper

 

[ivan salis]

Re: occam's razor

I am solely speaking of close range detection of conductive metals only---via the interaction of the human electrical feild (known to many as a arua) and conductive metals in nearby ground via conductive copper rods alerting the human nervious system to their location -- I have no interest in other types of dowsing -- I am merely stating that metal detectors use electrical feilds being disturbed to find metal (a well known fact) --- then why can't humans do the same thing basically -- via the electrical feilds & impluses our bodies produce and thru highly conductive metal rods in direct contact with their body feeling the disturbance in the feild thus seeking out and find nearby metals also? I mean for this to be a most freindly --respectful and scientific & serious dabate on this subject -- Ivan

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: occam's razor

Instead of pretending your poindexter incarnated as a bully learn the difference between EEG and EKG. OOPS may be an appropriate responce.

Name calling isn't allowd be anyone.

You want to Discuse "Dowsing" ?

Discuss "Dowsing"

when it comes to the Members,
IF you have nothing nice to say about them,
Keep it to Yourself, and we will Get along fine.

JEFF

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: occam's razor

Wow, I enjoyed this exchange immensely. Glad no one turned and ran ('cept one?). I have a business meeting in Sacramento over the next two days, and won't be back on my 'puter till Thurs. PM. I'll just add a few replies before I go, and see how badly I get chewed up when I return :P

Pepper, you say you're leaning towards dowsing, and say: "just like there is none to explain the paranormal phenomena" Yes, in that sense, I too lean towards the "it-may-be-able-to-work" side too. If you attribute it to "paranormal", rather than natural or normal abilities, or to scientific (whether known or unknown), then ... Yes, we're on the same page. That's what I've been trying to say all along. Sure, there are spooky (paranormal) things that go on, and yes, they produce!

But then you go and quote Einstein for the un-explained science view. That would not be the same as the paranormal explanation. Einstein's quote, and "paranormal", are not the same thing. "Para" means "outside". Just as "supernatural" and "natural" are not the same thing. If it is scientific (whether known or unknown), then it IS within the realms of normal. So .... you want to clarify where you're at?

Pepper, you cite: "magnetic": Sure, there's a magnetic pull in all objects. We learned that in high school: "objects attract". The larger the object, the bigger it's magnetic field. That's why when an apple falls off a tree, it falls to the ground, rather than the earth being pulled up to the apple. Since the earth is larger, it has a larger magnetic field. So likewise, any magnetic properties that a coin in a field may have, is zillions of times negated by the earth's magnetic power. The rods and coin can never have any magnetic cross-talk, as the earth negates them. The rod points straight down (or swings) towards the earth, before it will ever point at a coin, when it comes to magnetics. Understand?

Ivan, I read your paragraph no less than 3 times, trying hard to honestly understand, fairly, the progression and possibility of what you're saying. I just don't see how the human system and coins in the ground can do those things you're saying. You describe a sort of electronic metal detector, and then describe parts of the natural human body - like, they can be similar to those components of the detector. Then say: "why can't humans do the same thing basically?" My answer is, because it's been shown that they can't. It's been shown schematically that these functions don't do what you're saying, in the natural way you say.

Ivan, take for example that I look at all the purposed designed actions of my microwave oven. I can try all I want to match up my body parts to various parts of the microwave oven. And then I can try, with my body, to pop popcorn, cook a pot roast, etc.. But it's just not going to happen, no matter how much I think my body matches up to parts of the microwave oven. My body is simply not a microwave oven, even if I added electrical parts to my body (rods, etc...).

Dell, you say "Since it's already being done".... First, let's assume you have a true story, explainable in no other way than the success/truth of the dowsing. Sure, I'd buy that. But I would classify it under supernatural, paranormal, spiritual, or whatever you want to call it. Then yes, I'll give that to you. "It's already being done" So too are other spooky things all over the world, whether the partakers do it knowingly or unknowingly. But I have my doubts that it's anything less than random chance, gut feelings, detectors to "pinpoint", etc... for most. Read my post titled "How do you discount the testimonials" (have you read that?) on the "why I don't believe" section.

Ok, see you guys Thursday night. Hoping for direct answers to these items I leave.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: occam's razor

BUT physics are indeed used -- the study of bio - electric and bio - magentic energy are both forms of physics and the study of which is accepted science -- highly respected well funded scientist study the way a shark "detects" the electrical feild put out by its prey to help it hunt ---and other scientist are studying how animals use magnetic feilds to navigate long distances --- thus these are valid scientific theories not "crackpot" ideas --- Ivan

 

[Urban Prospector]

Re: occam's razor

Instead of pretending your poindexter incarnated as a bully learn the difference between EEG and EKG. OOPS may be an appropriate responce.

Name calling isn't allowd be anyone.

You want to Discuse "Dowsing" ?

Discuss "Dowsing"

when it comes to the Members,
IF you have nothing nice to say about them,
Keep it to Yourself, and we will Get along fine.

JEFF

I offer my apology's to the members of this forum , the moderater and specifically Jerry for using the analogy of a bully Poindexter. At the time I specifically thought that by not capitalizing it it was not a comparison to the actual character but the characteristic.Thus not name calling but comparing.I do not have any ill will or dislike of Poindexter and in fact feel that some of the traits and indeed the intelligence of that character are admirable yet fallable as are all humans.I stand corrected.
Further more I am not now nor have I ever been a Dowser, at the most I am Dowser curious and even at that for a very short period of time.So if indeed Jerry is addressing me when he states " I was trying to cover all the options I've heard you dowsers claim as a usable range for your gadgets." in the post containing my quote he is calling me a dowser in the derogatory context of "you people". This conclusion comes from his obvious disrespectful opinion of dowsers. If it was meant in a derogatory fashion is a moot point as it was not taken that way.I am not easily insulted even by physical attack, verbal and written wrangling are welcomed. Respectfully submitted Urb.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Re: occam's razor

Hey Urb....Most of my methods of Dowsing are posted on this forum...If you want to learn how I use Dowsing read Want to try Dowsing...http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,19537.0.html

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: occam's razor

Jeff of Pa, The post I quoted from is no longer there. If you didn't delete, it may have served a strategy and was deleted by the author.

I modified my reply accordingly. If I am out of line, I have never objected to my posts being deleted. I will respect your judgement. Dell

Thanks Dell

That is What I thought. I was sure I deleted it or one like it earlier.

I do not like people acting Superior, or like English Teachers.

 

[Urban Prospector]

Re: occam's razor

Tom in CA's remark about the apple triggered a thought.Now I don't speak in definite science as some wish to. It's more common sense and thinking aloud.In business they call it "brainstorming"
The apple fell due to gravity not magnetic attraction.Gravity is created by the inertial effect of the spinning earth.Inertia would normally throw an object out not in.Due to the volume of spinning mass, the Earth, it attracts or pulls in.Maybe magnetism is closer to correct than I was taught. Every thing is made up of a molecular structure those atoms are held together with a attractant or bonding agent, again a magnetism.Some thing keeps those atoms from merging and mixing or typing would turn into a mush of finger and keyboard stew.That subatomic magnetic glue (polar covalent bonds, a dipole moment , accumulated bond dipoles) must interact, communicate if you will, with the next atomic structure (the skin to the Key) at the point of separation. It seems in my minds eye this is the potential path of communication to locate an item through dowsing.As stated previously I have never tried dowsing but that will change today.It seems dowsing is like sex doing it would be more fun than talking about it and only sometimes is the end result satisfying.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Re: occam's razor

Rhetoric based on assumption, and dismissal of photo evidence presented by others, and twisting others comments to justify your own can in no way be viewedas an open minded scientific approach. Dell

I have to wonder if you've ever read any of Art's posts, Dell?

 

[ClonedSIM]

Re: occam's razor

Rhetoric based on assumption, and dismissal of photo evidence presented by others, and twisting others comments to justify your own can in no way be viewed as an open minded scientific approach. Dell

I have to wonder if you've ever read any of Art's posts, Dell?

The difference being that Art, does not claim to be Scientific, pretend to be scientific, or imply that he is an authority on Dowsing, or physics. In addition, he has posted photos that tend to support his field experience with Dowsing and Prospecting. Dell

No, he's posted photos that shows he knows how to process gold from dirt. But I agree with you in saying he is not an authority on science, physics or dowsing.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Re: occam's razor

The difference being that Art, does not claim to be Scientific, pretend to be scientific, or imply that he is an authority on Dowsing, or physics. In addition, he has posted photos that tend to support his field experience with Dowsing and Prospecting. Dell

Thanks Dell….The only thing I know for sure is how Dowsing works for me. I know how gold is deposited in the gold fields. Some people seem to think that all you have to do is go to one of the areas and dig it up. I have news for them. Most of the gold in the Mother Lode in California has been found in the streams and rivers over the past 100 or so years. If you are looking on dry land it is very hard to find.
I have ask where to find stories of Dowsers digging empty holes and keep being referred to Randi’s web site. We all know that Randi is a self proclaimed charlatan, a liar, a thief and a fake altogether.' http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/nicholls.html
I am not a Scientific person. That does not stop me from doing experiments and deciding what works for me. I put information on the internet in hopes that it will encourage others to post how it works for them.
I agree that Dowsers do not always agree about methods. Where does it say that we have to agree. My dad told me that there was always another way to skin a cat and I take that to mean there is always another way to do the same task
Now that I have started to look for large Treasures I find that it is very hard and expensive. It evolves a lot of travel and research.
When you follow a signal line you never know where it will end. A lot of times it will end in an area that you can not recover it. That is just part of what treasure hunting is about. That’s enough for now…Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

Re: occam's razor

The difference being that Art, does not claim to be Scientific, pretend to be scientific, or imply that he is an authority on Dowsing, or physics. In addition, he has posted photos that tend to support his field experience with Dowsing and Prospecting. Dell

Thanks Dell….The only thing I know for sure is how Dowsing works for me. I know how gold is deposited in the gold fields. Some people seem to think that all you have to do is go to one of the areas and dig it up. I have news for them. Most of the gold in the Mother Lode in California has been found in the streams and rivers over the past 100 or so years. If you are looking on dry land it is very hard to find.
I have ask where to find stories of Dowsers digging empty holes and keep being referred to Randi’s web site. We all know that Randi is a self proclaimed charlatan, a liar, a thief and a fake altogether.' http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/nicholls.htmlI am not a Scientific person. That does not stop me from doing experiments and deciding what works for me. I put information on the internet in hopes that it will encourage others to post how it works for them.
I agree that Dowsers do not always agree about methods. Where does it say that we have to agree. My dad told me that there was always another way to skin a cat and I take that to mean there is always another way to do the same task
Now that I have started to look for large Treasures I find that it is very hard and expensive. It evolves a lot of travel and research.
When you follow a signal line you never know where it will end. A lot of times it will end in an area that you can not recover it. That is just part of what treasure hunting is about. That’s enough for now…Art

And again you misquote, Art. You do realize that the skeptics here have all read the complete version of the interview this line has been exerpted from? You realize you're only making yourself look foolish by constantly misquoting Randi, right?

Dowsers do not always agree about methods? HA! Dowsers never agree about methods. How many different ways do you tie your shoes, Art? How many different ways do you start your car? How can you ignore the fact that there have been dozens of different ways listed to dowse and the numerous ways they contradict each other?

 

[Urban Prospector]

Re: occam's razor

To be fair af1733 do you tie your shoes the same way every time,say sitting down Right foot first left over right.If so are you in Marine boot camp? That's the only place I've been that is so regimented.With me some times i sit some times i put my foot on the dresser or the bed( if you tell My Wife I'll deny it).If boots the long laces wrap around the ankle 1st. Some times i sit in the truck to start it sometimes I stand outside or even when dared I reach over from the passenger door.Point is thou that the shoe gets tied and the car gets started differently even if the only difference is the date (one per lifetime)

Do you ever wonder if Salmon agree on a route when returning to the place of their birth to breed and die. How does science explain that they accomplish that with better accuracy then most modern GPS? Do they have little fish compasses or may be there are no fish sceptics insisting it can't be done won't work no way so they don't yet know they can't. Maybe the swallows fly the exact same route to Capistrano so as to not be late? You can follow a horse to water and drink even if he doesn't.How in the World does a Monarch Butterfly find his way from a tree in California to South America then return to that same tree 3 generations later.Do animals Dowse or are there some things we know happen but don't yet know why?

 

[ClonedSIM]

Re: occam's razor

To be fair af1733 do you tie your shoes the same way every time,say sitting down Right foot first left over right.If so are you in Marine boot camp? That's the only place I've been that is so regimented.With me some times i sit some times i put my foot on the dresser or the bed( if you tell My Wife I'll deny it).If boots the long laces wrap around the ankle 1st. Some times i sit in the truck to start it sometimes I stand outside or even when dared I reach over from the passenger door.Point is thou that the shoe gets tied and the car gets started differently even if the only difference is the date (one per lifetime)

Do you ever wonder if Salmon agree on a route when returning to the place of their birth to breed and die. How does science explain that they accomplish that with better accuracy then most modern GPS? Do they have little fish compasses or may be there are no fish sceptics insisting it can't be done won't work no way so they don't yet know they can't. Maybe the swallows fly the exact same route to Capistrano so as to not be late? You can follow a horse to water and drink even if he doesn't.How in the World does a Monarch Butterfly find his way from a tree in California to South America then return to that same tree 3 generations later.Do animals Dowse or are there some things we know happen but don't yet know why?

Ahh, but the analogies you've drawn here all have one thing in common. Making exceptions for sickness or injury, all the salmon return to the same location, all the butterflies make the same trip, and the swallows follow the same route year after year. So why do dowsers employ a hundered different methods to dowse?

Essentially you've strengthened my argument. When a process works, truly works and is repeatable with the same results, the process to achieve those results is the same.

 

[Urban Prospector]

Re: occam's razor

The analogies I've drawn do indeed all have something in common they are unexplained Phenomina.Not occult or supernatural but known, scientifically unexplained, fact.The main point which you seem to have skipped over is that these species do not follow one set unwavering routine and go with the flow of weather and climate.Just as You af1733 do not tie your shoes the same way each time. Your method changes with your circumstance and surroundings. Deny that if you must but the odds are vastly in my favor.
In the case of El Nino ,La Nina and Arctic Blast from the North the migratory paths, stopping points and final destinations vary greatly from year to year.I can't go to the same place year after year to harvest ducks or doves because they are unpredictable,. Surely you see the holes in your argument that "all the butterflies make the same trip, and the swallows follow the same route year after year". If they did they would not have survived this long,especially in the case of a fragile creature like the Monarch, one frost = death.We both know the weather can change rapidly.
In the case of your quote "Making exceptions for sickness or injury, all the salmon return to the same location" yes agreed.The surviving Salmon, sick or injured being relegated to food chain, do not follow the same path and migrate over many thousands of miles to millions of locales. They do not stay schooled up waiting for the years to pass living their lives solely to swim upstream.After doing so they die their entire life span is between their leaving and returning or Physically dowsing their way home.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Re: occam's razor

The analogies I've drawn do indeed all have something in common they are unexplained Phenomina.Not occult or supernatural but known, scientifically unexplained, fact.The main point which you seem to have skipped over is that these species do not follow one set unwavering routine and go with the flow of weather and climate.Just as You af1733 do not tie your shoes the same way each time. Your method changes with your circumstance and surroundings. Deny that if you must but the odds are vastly in my favor.
In the case of El Nino ,La Nina and Arctic Blast from the North the migratory paths, stopping points and final destinations vary greatly from year to year.I can't go to the same place year after year to harvest ducks or doves because they are unpredictable,. Surely you see the holes in your argument that "all the butterflies make the same trip, and the swallows follow the same route year after year". If they did they would not have survived this long,especially in the case of a fragile creature like the Monarch, one frost = death.We both know the weather can change rapidly.
In the case of your quote "Making exceptions for sickness or injury, all the salmon return to the same location" yes agreed.The surviving Salmon, sick or injured being relegated to food chain, do not follow the same path and migrate over many thousands of miles to millions of locales. They do not stay schooled up waiting for the years to pass living their lives solely to swim upstream.After doing so they die their entire life span is between their leaving and returning or Physically dowsing their way home.

I can't take exception to anything you've said, but you didn't address the primary thrust of my argument. When these migrations do happen, they are done as a group. Almost all the animals travel together to the same destination. Dowsers claim to be heading to the same destination, but none of them can say they take the same route. My primary concern is this: It's dowsing, right? Why don't dowsers dowse the same way? I'm not talking about using two rods as opposed to three, or walking forward as opposed to backwards, but why do some folks just use the rods, and why do some put coins in their mouth, and why do some stick magnest in their shoes. There's a vast sea of methods that dowsers employ that have no scientific purpose, but why do these folks swear by them?

 

[ivan salis]

Re: occam's razor

I do not claim knowledge of other peoples thought process's or dowsing methods --- only my own thoughts on the subject and thus this is how I think this method of dowsing works ---explained in rational scientific terms----using the human bio electric feild (or aura) with highly conductive rods -- that there is a interaction between the (nearby) conductive metals in the ground and the aura and via the feed back when this occurs obtained thru the rods into the human nervious system --the dowser is able to close down on and locate the metals --- much the was a shark homes in its preys electric signal in poor visability waters.