occams razor

Re: occam's razor

I do not claim knowledge of other peoples thought process's or dowsing methods --- only my own thoughts on the subject and thus this is how I think this method of dowsing works ---explained in rational scientific terms----using the human bio electric feild (or aura) with highly conductive rods -- that there is a interaction between the (nearby) conductive metals in the ground and the aura and via the feed back when this occurs obtained thru the rods into the human nervous system --the dowser is able to close down on and locate the metals --- much the was a shark homes in its preys electric signal in poor visibility waters.

I agree with you Ivan.....I know for a fact that after I had a stroke my dowsing didn't work the same. I had to change some of my methods and find ways around the parts that just quite. I no longer had the same voltage between my hands. It was still there but at much lower voltage. The same rods that I had used for years would not work. But my arch enemy the Ideomotor Response was again there so I had to work to control it again. I am not saying that using Ideomotor Response is wrong as I know people who use it with great success. I know you are right about fish and birds. Look at humans….Without maps we are not able to go anywhere. Now we have GPS and voice machines in our cars so we can locate Home Depot. ..Art
 

Re: occam's razor

Urban: Thanx for setting me straight on magnetic vs "objects attract". I must've been smoking crack when I posted that. Yes, I was confusing 2 different forms of attraction. You're right on that. My bad.

But I do want to point out that magnetic fields would only be for objects (iron) that respond to magnets. And even then, their effect is minimal, and can't help dowsing. Even those super powerful magnets used in hospital scanning devices scarcely work to a few feet away. Ie.: get within a foot of the opening, and the doctor or nurse can start to feel their buttons from their uniforms being pulled.
 

Re: occam's razor

But I do want to point out that magnetic fields would only be for objects (iron) that respond to magnets. And even then, their effect is minimal, and can't help dowsing. Even those super powerful magnets used in hospital scanning devices scarcely work to a few feet away. Ie.: get within a foot of the opening, and the doctor or nurse can start to feel their buttons from their uniforms being pulled.

I also think the signals lines I use are not Magnetic. The only thing I know is that I can only pick them up in the 4 cardinal directions on the compass. As the magnetic north pole has moved east over the years these signal lines have moved right with it. It seems that some how it is aliened with the magnetic lines around the earth…Art
 

Re: occam's razor

OHIO JERRY: Where have you gone? sniff

A few posts coming up to think over and cross sabers with me on, regarding dowsing, testing, fields involved and possibility of measuring these fields. Yes, they are pastes from some previous posts that I have made regarding the possibility of dowsing.

As mentioned, I was born lazy and have successfully dedicated my life to not changing.
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hi Yes to minimize, not "ELIMINATE" , hence all such tests are subject to question and intimate review, especially when the emotional/mental/physical aspects of the people are involved. In this type of case, it is impossible to do so. Even if all try to the best of their ability to be impartial or to succeed, it is still impossible, due to what can be called "self delusional beliefs" triggered by perhaps the subconscience from a past experience or reading, or even in being subjected to a feeling of inferiority because of present surroundings and type or attitude of the testers. Hence any conclusions based upon pure statistics in this type of test, is at best a semi-educated guess.

For a dowsing test to be "VALID", the SAME dowser should be subjected to a large no. of tests in the same exact manner in many different conditions and under (A) all testers that believe in Dowsing , (B) All of those that do not, plus (C) an equally divided group. Only under these conditions can one draw a "reasonable" conclusion.

Anything less is completely unacceptable as true Scientific testing since we are dealing with a complex interwoven group of Psychlogical as well a Physiological feeds all intermodulating each other.. Any of which can be altered easily by the present testing conditions


Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Re: occam's razor

I can't take exception to anything you've said, but you didn't address the primary thrust of my argument. When these migrations do happen, they are done as a group. Almost all the animals travel together to the same destination. Dowsers claim to be heading to the same destination, but none of them can say they take the same route. My primary concern is this: It's dowsing, right? Why don't dowsers dowse the same way? I'm not talking about using two rods as opposed to three, or walking forward as opposed to backwards, but why do some folks just use the rods, and why do some put coins in their mouth, and why do some stick magnest in their shoes. There's a vast sea of methods that dowsers employ that have no scientific purpose, but why do these folks swear by them?
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Unexplained Phenomina is something I can't personally explain,or do (yet?). But I ain't afraid to hypothesize.1st Animals aren't necessarily traveling together. Salmon for instance travel over a vast area of sea but as they swim upriver they are bottle necked into a group simply by the confinement of space (area).This would give the impression of grouping. Crows fly in small groups and join with other groups along the way to form flocks.There is a Pecan tree in my yard that is one of those way points and I watch them coming in from different compass points to meet there as do the Parrots.
"Why don't dowsers dowse the same way?"(quote af) I would argue they do, they use the subconscious to take them to an unknown destination.Methods/ techniques vary, from what I read, but the underlying task is the same.To perform a task I use what I feel will work, confidence in success is a important part of success.The little dowsing I've done so far I notice I feel self conscience about people looking a the nut job walking around with wires flailing from his hands and it stifles my concentration or more to the point my lack of it. If my mind isn't a blank page I see that that I've written before and dowsing is uncharted territory.My premonition is that I could just hold my hands up an get the same input of info as the rods would give.My feeling is it comes from the brain or "Mood".That probably sounds crazy as my sensible deductive reasoning brain function says so too. But this is, again, unexplainable, like premonition.The hardest part for me is listening to or "hearing" that little silent voice, and having the faith to follow it all the while feeling like it's a wild goose chase, yet not wanting to allow those feeling to interfear. Till I find something or repeatedly don't this is something I have to deal with internally and in my own way. I can say that it's enlightening me to new emotions. I'm a hard case that figured I'd seen it all and done it all, dowsing is working it's way to spots under my mental callouses.
One other thing that has been on my mind about dowsing, and again it's a bit crazy to some, that is if God would frown on my new persuit. I have faith but not Religion, I care not what a Church or Religion thinks or says. My relationship with "My" God allows my to go straight to the source so to speak. I seek no help from Him other than to help protect my soul from damage. It appears He's cool with it and it's not offencive or deviant. Again unexplainable yet important, at least to me and again instructive of the varying methods, paths or techniques people use to achieve the same over all goal. It's your road walk it as you will if you have to crawl it crawl like a Marine.
 

Re: occam's razor

For a dowsing test to be "VALID", the SAME dowser should be subjected to a large no. of tests in the same exact manner in many different conditions and under (A) all testers that believe in Dowsing , (B) All of those that do not, plus (C) an equally divided group. Only under these conditions can one draw a "reasonable" conclusion.
Hey Realde…Why would any Dowser want to take one of these so called tests? Most of the Dowsing tests made by Scientist in this century have ended with the same sentence. “ More study is needed.” This seems to be how Scientist conclude most of their tests in the fields they study. It seems they want an “out” in case they are proved wrong later. The only thing one test would prove is that One Dowser could or could not Dowse….Art
 

Re: occam's razor

Till I find something or repeatedly don't this is something I have to deal with internally and in my own way. I can say that it's enlightening me to new emotions. I'm a hard case that figured I'd seen it all and done it all, dowsing is working it's way to spots under my mental callouses.

Again unexplainable yet important, at least to me and again instructive of the varying methods, paths or techniques people use to achieve the same over all goal. It's your road walk it as you will if you have to crawl it crawl like a Marine.

I can’t explain Dowsing as well as you do but I can agree that I feel the same way as you. I used the rods for years before I found out that I was Dowsing ( for lack of another word). I have practiced and perfected my methods into a system that I am proud of. I use the rods because I enjoy it. When I find a gold nugget that no man has every saw I get excited. If that feeling ever went away I would quite and try some thing else…..Art
 

Re: occam's razor

HI peeps: Agreed, but tests are necessary IF you want dowsing to have any creditability, or for science to advance in this direction.. I also agree that if you are successful just go on your merry way without attempting to convince or explain anything to any one, just go do it and have fun..

Similar to religion, female beauty, and politics, "you" are the final arbitrator.

As far as measuring the fields or energies involved ----------->-
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"HI my Friend Carl, agreed, so can dowsing, among other things, "IF" we had the proper measuring devices, we do not! Today we are in about the same status as Galvani would be regarding our latest electronic Nana/bio technology. In his wildest dreams he could not imagine it, nor could he even begin to imagine the instruments necessary to measure it.

We are essentially in the same situation, we are attempting to measure a very subtle energy force, one which we haven't even the slightest idea of what it consists of by applying a purely physical brute force unrelated measurement system.

We haven't the slightest logical idea on how to develop a suitable measuring system. Frankly it is ignorance or ego of a high degree, to continuously quote it over and over again. It does not do Justice to you Carl since you do have an excellent brain, I can understand XXXX and others being addicted to it, but. it does not indicate a progressive or open imaginative mind.

A tremendous work was done by Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose on using Plants as bio instruments to measure subtle energies. He also won the Nobel peace prize on his work in Electronics and physics, in fact he is credited in being the first to send intelligible data via micro waves in th 1800's.

I believe that they are now actively using bio-instruments to investigate telepathy, A fascinating allied Field field if one wishes to research it.

Tropical; Tramp"

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Re: occam's razor

Steven77, I'm not a psychiatrist, but your question about why the naysayers continue to haunt the forum can probably be traced back to their early childhood. Their parents ingrained into them that things like dowsing are evil and can't possibly work. This forum provides a support group for them to reinforce their subconscious programming. It's no different than the bully who picks a fight to show the other guy he is tougher, when in reality he is trying to prove it to himself. And if someone else agrees with him, he gets his fix even if it is phony.

I guess I grew up in a time when we were encouraged to reject tradition/parent's beliefs, etc. It's not just parents, it's religious leaders, peer pressure, etc., and don't forget school teachers. You'd think being liberal they would have an open mind.
 

Re: occam's razor

Mike(Mont) said:
Steven77, I'm not a psychiatrist, but your question about why the naysayers continue to haunt the forum can probably be traced back to their early childhood. Their parents ingrained into them that things like dowsing are evil and can't possibly work. This forum provides a support group for them to reinforce their subconscious programming. It's no different than the bully who picks a fight to show the other guy he is tougher, when in reality he is trying to prove it to himself. And if someone else agrees with him, he gets his fix even if it is phony.

I guess I grew up in a time when we were encouraged to reject tradition/parent's beliefs, etc. It's not just parents, it's religious leaders, peer pressure, etc., and don't forget school teachers. You'd think being liberal they would have an open mind.
You're right, Mike. You're not a psychiatrist..... ::)
 

Re: occam's razor

Mike,

They remind me of an online poker player who sits at his PC in his jammies and upon losing a big hand immediately post cursing words knowing they are in the safety of their home whereas if they did that at a live poker table they would be picking up their teeth off the casino floor! Some of the things I've seen them post in this forum I'll bet they would not have the cahones to say in person to any of the pro dowsers.

Did you notice neither one of them replied to my question asking if the were atheists?.

Take care,

Steven
 

Re: occam's razor

Steven77 said:
Did you notice neither one of them replied to my question asking if the were atheists?.



Steven

just as your question is Off Subject, so is the answer.

Has nothing to do with Dowsing.

I'm not even sure occam's razor does either
 

Re: occam's razor

When is this thread and dowsing like unto a stick in the mud?
 

Re: occam's razor

HI AA mi budy:


Quote
If you don't believe me, just try and get one of them to work without having the operator hold it so the ideomotor response can make it move.

Ideo motor response

Ideo motor response is a concept in hypnosis and paranormal research. Based upon the precepts of the words 'ideo' (thought), 'motor' (action or activity) and response (in meaning respondant to stimuli) - the phrase is most commonly used in reference to the psychological activities that result in the muscular reaction, in humans, that may be presented as an abortive motion or even a reflexive reaction. It is strongly associated with the practice of hypnosis, whereby 'yes' or 'no' answers may be given by indication of a physical manifestation rather than a verbal one; such results are produced by 'pre-suggesting' the correct response and attaching ito either the left or right hand side of the subjects body.
It is generally considered to be an unconscious activity that the conscious brain has no true control over, but in various hypnotic theories - this statement may be taken to be actual hetero suggestion or role-playing to the contoller or therapist.

[edit] An example of IMR
If you were to be asked to imagine doing up your shoelaces as vividly as possible, your brain would consciously fixate on the task and work through it as vividly and as logically as possible. The theory of IMR would imply that your muscular memory asscoiated to your hands, would then attempt the task physically, but abort the process unless it was truly necessary and curtail the events that would unfold if you were actually willing to send the complete information along your nervous system to your hands. This may therefore involve an involuntary 'twitch' or movement of the associated digits are placed into preparation of function, processed against reality and then given the signal to not actually act.
In hypnosis, this may be circumvented by dissociating the particular thought-process-response-abort of a digit or entire limb; and therefore give control to the unconscious mind to enable (by suggestion) the route of conscious thought-unconscious process-conscious process (of the fact)-conscious response (do not act)- unconscious response (dissociate from conscious)- ignore abortive conscious attempt- unconscious unabort... Which would then display a reaction or response in a physical manner or behavioural context.
Body language may be considered the most commonly visible aspect of IMR, but may also include such unconscious activities as doodling or art - as the conscious thought is sublimated into a different type of activity in unconscious expression.
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sheesh, Your author could have explained that in just three or four sentences.

However essentially it is correct.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Re: occam's razor

Hey Don Jose de La Mancha…So we are being told that someone else can control the Ideomotor Response. {under hypnosis}….We also are being told the we have no control the sub-conscious mind.

Is there not people who deal with psychological problems and help people chance these sub-conscious acts?

In my opinion these sub-conscious movements can be trained to only react to the stimuli that I want them to react to. ..Art
 

Re: occam's razor

HI JERRY: quote--->

The "human electrical field" you said was made by the body is not a real field. It is not something we can measure with conventional instruments
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You got it Jerry, so we "need new measuring devices", starting to get into the
bio-detector fields.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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