olive jar rim marking I.d. Help
- Thread starter GatorBoy
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Darren in NC
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I thought we all knew of the assayer's mark all along. AL mentioned it early on. The mystery is why is it being stamped on something other than a coin? Chagy, any photos of bale seals used on silver bars? I thought the bars themselves were stamped. I agree that it fits the assayer's mark the most, but until provenance is given, we simply don't know.
I also agree with elle, AL - you should have pointed to other websites where discussions had already been made. Did you mention this came from the beach and not a shipwreck site?
From The Treasure Beaches Report From Florida's Treasure Coast. Metal Detecting For You.: 3/13/12 Report - Whatzits, Bale Seals and Beach Conditions...
According to Sewall Menzel, the D assayer initial was used for Mexican minted cobs 1598-1599 (Francisco de Quintana Duenas), 1618-1634 (Diego de Godoy) and 1724-1729 (Domingo Garcia de Mendiola).
I don't see any evidence of this object being a coin. I don't see any shield, cross, or monogram.
Could it be that a die was being tested? Or perhaps the mint and assayer mark used to certify something other than a coin as being official?
While I'm far from reaching a conclusion, right now to me the most likely of the alternatives that I've considered, is that it is a broken bale seal.
The OMD on the object really looks a lot like a maker's mark though, like you might find on silver jewelry.
Sometimes research like this only yields results over a period of months or years.
I also agree with elle, AL - you should have pointed to other websites where discussions had already been made. Did you mention this came from the beach and not a shipwreck site?
From The Treasure Beaches Report From Florida's Treasure Coast. Metal Detecting For You.: 3/13/12 Report - Whatzits, Bale Seals and Beach Conditions...
According to Sewall Menzel, the D assayer initial was used for Mexican minted cobs 1598-1599 (Francisco de Quintana Duenas), 1618-1634 (Diego de Godoy) and 1724-1729 (Domingo Garcia de Mendiola).
I don't see any evidence of this object being a coin. I don't see any shield, cross, or monogram.
Could it be that a die was being tested? Or perhaps the mint and assayer mark used to certify something other than a coin as being official?
While I'm far from reaching a conclusion, right now to me the most likely of the alternatives that I've considered, is that it is a broken bale seal.
The OMD on the object really looks a lot like a maker's mark though, like you might find on silver jewelry.
Sometimes research like this only yields results over a period of months or years.
E
elle
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Bill, no problem, just glad Chagy helped confirm. And no apology as you wrote. I can speak for Chagy, Darren, myself,and so many others who LOVE TO HELP PEOPLE with our research. It’s our passion, so why not do random acts of kindness when we can. Besides, we also learn in the journey.
It is interesting how many assayers used “D.” TreasureGuide wrote on March 13, 2012:
“ OMD is a common combination found on Mexican minted cobs, indicating the Mexican mint and assayer ‘D.’
According to Sewall Menzel, the D assayer initial was used for Mexican minted cobs 1598-1599 (Francisco de Quintana Duenas), 1618-1634 (Diego de Godoy) and 1724-1729 (Domingo Garcia de Mendiola).”
So we are going to talk about Diego de Godoy. The era he lived fits perfectly, not only with the lead seal, but with the olive jar remnant.
Based on John M. Goggin’s groupings, the rim fell into the Middle Style ranging from around 1580 to1780. You have a rim mark, though, and that fact changes the whole story. Research has found there is a great possibility the marks were done to identify the owner (or who it was going to) rather than revealing the name of the artist. Anyways, marks were extremely rare and were only used for a short time era. Only wrecks in the early seventeenth-century revealed rim marks (studies recorded what was discovered on the San Antonio, the Atocha and the Concepción). Olive jar rims were also lacking on collections pre-1588. None were found anywhere in the last half of the 17th century (based on research that includes a wreck in Barbuda from 1695).
You have a “D” on your rim that was also shown on recovered pieces from the Atocha and the San Antonio. Sometimes the owner’s initials displayed on the pottery were also found on other objects, like silver bars. An “O” and “D” on your rim seems very close to what was just posted and discussed. So the time frame of your rim puts it at 1600-1650 based on the pottery research. The “OMD” research puts the dates at 1618-1634.
Looks like you have an answer.
Sources used: John M. Goggin, The Spanish Olive Jar: An Introductory Study, 1960.
Mitchell W. Marken, Pottery From Spanish Shipwrecks 1500-1800, 1994.
Bill…Good luck and God Bless!
***Chagy, seriously, we should work together again … soon…on another project. I miss your cleverness and our solving mysteries...
It is interesting how many assayers used “D.” TreasureGuide wrote on March 13, 2012:
“ OMD is a common combination found on Mexican minted cobs, indicating the Mexican mint and assayer ‘D.’
According to Sewall Menzel, the D assayer initial was used for Mexican minted cobs 1598-1599 (Francisco de Quintana Duenas), 1618-1634 (Diego de Godoy) and 1724-1729 (Domingo Garcia de Mendiola).”
So we are going to talk about Diego de Godoy. The era he lived fits perfectly, not only with the lead seal, but with the olive jar remnant.
Based on John M. Goggin’s groupings, the rim fell into the Middle Style ranging from around 1580 to1780. You have a rim mark, though, and that fact changes the whole story. Research has found there is a great possibility the marks were done to identify the owner (or who it was going to) rather than revealing the name of the artist. Anyways, marks were extremely rare and were only used for a short time era. Only wrecks in the early seventeenth-century revealed rim marks (studies recorded what was discovered on the San Antonio, the Atocha and the Concepción). Olive jar rims were also lacking on collections pre-1588. None were found anywhere in the last half of the 17th century (based on research that includes a wreck in Barbuda from 1695).
You have a “D” on your rim that was also shown on recovered pieces from the Atocha and the San Antonio. Sometimes the owner’s initials displayed on the pottery were also found on other objects, like silver bars. An “O” and “D” on your rim seems very close to what was just posted and discussed. So the time frame of your rim puts it at 1600-1650 based on the pottery research. The “OMD” research puts the dates at 1618-1634.
Looks like you have an answer.
Sources used: John M. Goggin, The Spanish Olive Jar: An Introductory Study, 1960.
Mitchell W. Marken, Pottery From Spanish Shipwrecks 1500-1800, 1994.
Bill…Good luck and God Bless!
***Chagy, seriously, we should work together again … soon…on another project. I miss your cleverness and our solving mysteries...
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Darren in NC
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No one said anything about exact locations - simply that it was from a beach find and discussed elsewhere. No need to bite hands that are trying to help.
E
elle
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Darren, I just wanted to thank you again for introducing that religious order to me from yesterday's post...The Order of Poor Clerks Regular of the Mother of God of the Pious Schools.
I enjoyed so much reading about their foundation, it really made my weekend memorable and deepened my faith. Thank you again
from the bottom of my heart!
I enjoyed so much reading about their foundation, it really made my weekend memorable and deepened my faith. Thank you again
from the bottom of my heart!
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Darren in NC
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Laura, your thirst for history always inspires my own. Even though the order likely has nothing to do with the lead seal, it was indeed a fascinating look back at yet another facet of religious history. Religion gets a bad rap these days - and sometimes deservedly so. But the Piarists work in educating the handicapped was a bright spot for me. I love seeing people give of themselves in selfless ways. Everything we learn finds its way intertwined in the facts that all of us ultimately have the same dream for a better life and to enjoy the mystery of it all. I, for one, believe God is center of that mystery and history gives me fun clues in my enjoyment of His creation.
All the best to you. I hope you and Luis will indeed put your minds together again to peel back another layer of history!
All the best to you. I hope you and Luis will indeed put your minds together again to peel back another layer of history!
Darren in NC
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AL - keep smiling and keep the pics coming as you find more. I love digging into history as much as I dig in the sand.
Chagy
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Diego de Godoy was Ensayador Mayor de la Plata (Mayor Assayer of the Silver) from 1632 to 1634, could this seal be one of those seals used to stamp and seal letters?
Chagy
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Elle, any time!!! Thanks for your nice words!!!
AL, Darren is like a brother to me and he is one of the most honest man I have ever met. I am sure he does not even care about the "X" spot he is just trying to figure out the scenario to understand and help you. I will say this in a very humble way; you may consider your self lucky to have them here trying to help you because they do have the knowledge. I know both of them personally as a matter of fact we have been on a few trips all together (that being treasure hunting and diving trips) and I know they don't want or need to know where you honey hole is because I know both of them have bigger fish to fry. And please don't get me wrong with this said, it doesn't mean your site is not interesting, its interesting enough to have us here helping you!!!!!!!!!
All the best,
Chagy.......
AL, Darren is like a brother to me and he is one of the most honest man I have ever met. I am sure he does not even care about the "X" spot he is just trying to figure out the scenario to understand and help you. I will say this in a very humble way; you may consider your self lucky to have them here trying to help you because they do have the knowledge. I know both of them personally as a matter of fact we have been on a few trips all together (that being treasure hunting and diving trips) and I know they don't want or need to know where you honey hole is because I know both of them have bigger fish to fry. And please don't get me wrong with this said, it doesn't mean your site is not interesting, its interesting enough to have us here helping you!!!!!!!!!
All the best,
Chagy.......
GatorBoy
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oh I do appreciate this very much. and I am sure everything you say is true. and thank you in advance for any further help. with all the respect I could possibly put on a computer screen.. I say I believe you.. I will still be cautious. I too have a close knit group of acquaintances so putting myself out there like this feels a little uncomfortable I can't help it it's just me.
GatorBoy
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I believe there is a lot of history mixing together there. I think denser items something with a higher specific gravity might be more of a true marker.
divermark
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An interesting note:
I am based in Anglesey, a small island off the coast of wales in the UK.
The house is on the beach and we get the almost exact same plates in the form of broken bits washed up all the time.
After storms, the wooden beams of wrecks show themselves for a tide or two only to again disappear into the sands.
One of Odyssey's year books has a great discription of this type of very common whiteware.
Mark
I am based in Anglesey, a small island off the coast of wales in the UK.
The house is on the beach and we get the almost exact same plates in the form of broken bits washed up all the time.
After storms, the wooden beams of wrecks show themselves for a tide or two only to again disappear into the sands.
One of Odyssey's year books has a great discription of this type of very common whiteware.
Mark
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