Our Obligation to Our Future Generations. What say ye ?? --

[BARKER]

Hi; A few days ago Deft Tones Posted about how he handled being harassed by the local Police & Rangers. I believe that his Actions serve as a strong example of how We here should Act when it occurs anywhere. Here is my reply. What do you think ??
Here is the Link to his Thread as well ok:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...-finally-happened-investigated-detecting.html


Deft, Way to go. It is guys like Us that need to get the Word out that what you did is EXACTLY what everyone of Us here on TNET and elsewhere should be doing. Standing up for our Rights PERIOD.!!! Man, you made my day, Thanks.
I think that Us older guys here need to teach the Newbies to stand up for their Rights like Deft did. That way Our defiance will serve as a great Role Model for them to pass on to future Generations yet to come. That We here really need to make this a National Movement. "A House divided can not Stand." A. Lincoln. His words 156 years ago are still true today.
Today We here, I believe, have an OBLIGATION to Our Future Generations in order for Us to Protect and Provide a more Perfect Union.!!! So Sayeth We ?? What do you guys think I think that it is now becoming much more prevalent that We here are being harassed by those in Power but better yet that the word of these Events are starting to be told at a much greater rate than ever before. That this turn of Events on Our part has or is starting to give rise to a coordinated Civil Act of Defiance to cast asunder the trampling of Our God Given Rights and as are afforded Us under Our very own Constitution & Our Bill of Rights wrought about by that Great Act of Defiance called the American Revolution which Our ForeFathers so greatly and proudly Sacrificed themselves so that We here now may have these very same Constitutional Rights. Hence We here have an Obligation to fight for what is Rightfully Ours today. It would be of the Greatest Tragedy if We here allow these Rights to be cast aside & trampled upon and thus rendered negated by those in so called Power. what say ye Folks ?? To Teach Our Own OR Not. I await. PEACE:RONB

Thanks Deft Tones for your Bravery. PEACE:RONB

 

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[hvacker]

Unfortunately Barker I'm not sure what "Rights" your referring to.
I do know the Government givith and the Government takith away. King James version. (Not really)

We always knew that politicians weren't supposed to accept gifts. Watching 60 Minutes Sunday the former
Gov of Virginia had no problem taking bunches of gifts. OK but then the US Supreme Court ruled he did nothing wrong as "They all do it". Probably if everyone MD-ed there would be no objection as "Everybody does it."

Rights are subject to interpretation by the courts, not by people.
My convoluted point is we really don't know what our rights are until they are tested in court. So many of those in the Bill of Rights are poorly worded and subject to re-interpretation over and then again.
Look how people argue the 2nd Amendment. Better wording and we would have no reason to argue.
Deft might prevailed in an argument on the street but it's not a Court of Law.

 

[BARKER]

Hi; I do not advocate the breaking of ANY Law. I only advocate that We "DO" have the Right to challenge any so called Law that inhibits or threatens Our great hobby FALSELY. I do advocate that We here Teach Our children how to Lawfully stand up for themselves and be willing to take it to Court if need be instead of turning tail and running at the first scram They hear. I do hope that Diplomacy on scene will work out the best ok. I don't care about dirty pols or anything like that. I do care that when We are confronted by the Blue Boys We have no problem defending ourselves. I believe Deft Tones did EXACTLY what We here should ALL do. That my question is "Do We here Teach Our children how to "properly" protect themselves in these situations. THAT is the crux of this Thread ok.
Now, you said Our Rights are subject to the interpretation of the Courts. I agree. Thing is that the Courts can not make interpretations unless they are made aware of the situation at hand. That the Law is NOT open to Arbitrary Interpretation by local Police or Rangers etc.. That their word is NOT the final Word on ANY given subject regarding detecting. So when you call them on their harassment of Us in pursuit of Our Hobby / Sport 99% of the time it has been proven that they are wrong and this problem can be solved rather quickly.
I propose that We here STOP turning tail and running because Mr. Policeman said so. That it is these ARE the very Acts that helped build Our Nation into what it is today ok. YES, I advocate ALL Our TH Rules known to Us All here as well. I just don't want Us here turn and run like sheep to the slaughter ok.
I believe & Advocate that We here have a Duty to Our Future Generations to Teach them these basic principles when in the pursuit of this great hobby ok. That to do otherwise would spell the END of Our great Hobby / Sport as We here know it today. What say ye Folks ?? PEACE:RONB

 

[Tom_in_CA]

As much as I am an advocate for "just go" and "don't ask silly questions", yet .... I'm not so sure about this "stand up for your rights stuff". Yes there have been great posts from members, like you linked, that did indeed get their "scram" reversed (like Scuba's adventures, for instance too).

But this should be the last resort, if you ask me. No one should have a defiant belligerent "give me a ticket" attitude. Because, while it's true that our actions are innocuous (we'll cover our spots and leave no trace), yet IN THE EYES OF THE PERSON WHO'S GRIPING, they might envision "holes" or some such nonsense they think applies. And sure, you can "prove them wrong" at times (like in various adventures we've read).

But the problem becomes, what if it backfires ? What if "making a stink" and "standing one's ground" actually LEADS to a rule ? (ie.: to "address this pressing issue"). Thus I would advocate lip service, and just come back later when said lookie-lou isn't around. Sure, there are times when this isn't possible. And yes, there are times to fight a scram. But if it's just an isolated fluke, then .... sometimes it's better to "pick your battles".

 

[BARKER]

Hi TOM; agree with most of it. I think it is always good to avoid these situations when possible. Thing is that I think that everyone of us here have at one point or other have had times when none of this is possible. That it is during those times that We "MUST" stand up for Our Rights. Yes there is a right way and a wrong way to do this. Being belligerent NEVER helps. But being a sheep only makes matters worse because then every Blue Boy will begin thinking that EVERY person with a detector is breaking the Law. Before you know it detecting is Banned everywhere. That it is during these times that We here MUST stand up for Our Rights. This can be done in a civilized controlled manner. If Our defiance is done in this manner then We will surely win the day and prevent repeats of this same type of incident from happening again.
As far as being Right or Wrong Legally We here must be willing to allow Our Courts to make those decisions. NOT every Blue Boy or Ranger anywhere. Anyways, What say ye Folks?? PEACE:RONB

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....We here must be willing to allow Our Courts to make those decisions....

Trouble is, that even those "courts" could make a "decision" that is against us. Thus, again, sometimes better not to swat hornet's nests whenever possible. It's gotten to where I do most of my turf hunting at night nowadays. So peaceful. So serene. NOT that I think I'm "doing something wrong", but just that I recognize that there are "connotations".

Thus, better not to be seen spitting in people's holy water, rather than trying to prove to them that it's "not really holy". Like nose picking: sometimes it's better to pick discreet times, EVEN though not illegal.

Love your posts Barker

 

[Terry Soloman]

This is a tough debate. Should you KNOW your rights, and "stand up" for them when challenged by Law or City Enforcement?
Should you comply with the LEO, and accept the citation, and or the order to leave? Can you do both?

In 40-years, I have been challenged by Police or National Park Rangers, seven times. In all of these encounters, I was courteous and professional. I smiled, produced identification, and answered questions quickly and honestly. I was allowed to continue detecting five of the seven times, so I feel like I'm ahead in karma so far.

I have been ordered to vacate a City Park, and a County Park. The County Police Officer told me he had no choice, as detecting is not allowed on County property. I could have asked him to cite the law to me, I could have "stood up" for my "right" to metal detect, but I chose not to. Instead, I smiled and complied. I also gave the Officer my business card and told him to call me if he ever wanted to get into the hobby, emphasizing his ability as a LEO to access places civilians could not. About six-years later, he swings a CTX 3030, and we do hunt places I could NEVER get to on my own. More flies with honey? Maybe.

The City park ejection was more painful, as I had dug Indian Heads, Seated silver, match cases, Civil War button - Uuuugggghhhh! That one hurts. City Councilman lives across the street in a luxury high rise and called the Parks Commish and rats me out one morning. One of the City guys drives over and the first words out of his mouth are, "I know you're cool and don't mess up anything, but the Park Commissioner told me you can't do that here."

Now I have a dilemma, because I know there is no law, no regulation, currently in effect that would limit my ability to detect this City park. I have a good friend on the City Council, that has helped me gain meetings with the City's Historical Society, and access to period maps of the Revolutionary-era battles fought in and around the City. What do I do?

I took off my glove, put my hand out, he took it and I told him I understood. He told me about the "pain in the.." City Councilman across the street, I said I'll see you around, and now I hit the park at dawn when the old bastion of society is sleeping. Call me a rebel.

My point? A dull one. Use your head, don't lose it. You may be right, you may be wrong, you should always pay close attention to the individual(s) challenging you. Is there room for conversation, negotiation? You always have time to note the Officer's Badge number, and or report the incident if you strongly feel you have been mistreated by the LEO, and your rights denied.

Personally, I like to go around 'em, rather than rolling over them. You never know! Some of them may end up as your detecting buddy.

 

[Honest Samuel]

Any problems with police, complain to the police chief and the mayor. Good hunting and good luck.

 

[Deft Tones]

Barker, I appreciate the kind words. I honestly wish that thread would die as I've moved on. Being held as an example or role model for anyone makes me feel uncomfortable. I've never easily accepted being told what to do because it's in my blood. I don't wish to reveal publicly our family surname but it's connected and noted in all the important struggles of American history from the Declaration through the US civil war and even into WW2. Our patriotic roots do run deep in this land. We stand firm in our principals to the bitter end if required.

I'll PM you.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... and now I hit the park at dawn when the old bastion of society is sleeping. Call me a rebel....

Terry, good post. Sometimes we "can't convert every last person on the planet". So rather than spend the rest of our lives trying to "prove them wrong", sometimes out-of-sight is out of mind.

 

[4x4x4]

Hi; A few days ago Deft Tones Posted about how he handled being harassed by the local Police & Rangers. I believe that his Actions serve as a strong example of how We here should Act when it occurs anywhere. Here is my reply. What do you think ??
Here is the Link to his Thread as well ok:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...-finally-happened-investigated-detecting.html


Deft, Way to go. It is guys like Us that need to get the Word out that what you did is EXACTLY what everyone of Us here on TNET and elsewhere should be doing. Standing up for our Rights PERIOD.!!! Man, you made my day, Thanks.
I think that Us older guys here need to teach the Newbies to stand up for their Rights like Deft did. That way Our defiance will serve as a great Role Model for them to pass on to future Generations yet to come. That We here really need to make this a National Movement. "A House divided can not Stand." A. Lincoln. His words 156 years ago are still true today.
Today We here, I believe, have an OBLIGATION to Our Future Generations in order for Us to Protect and Provide a more Perfect Union.!!! So Sayeth We ?? What do you guys think I think that it is now becoming much more prevalent that We here are being harassed by those in Power but better yet that the word of these Events are starting to be told at a much greater rate than ever before. That this turn of Events on Our part has or is starting to give rise to a coordinated Civil Act of Defiance to cast asunder the trampling of Our God Given Rights and as are afforded Us under Our very own Constitution & Our Bill of Rights wrought about by that Great Act of Defiance called the American Revolution which Our ForeFathers so greatly and proudly Sacrificed themselves so that We here now may have these very same Constitutional Rights. Hence We here have an Obligation to fight for what is Rightfully Ours today. It would be of the Greatest Tragedy if We here allow these Rights to be cast aside & trampled upon and thus rendered negated by those in so called Power. what say ye Folks ?? To Teach Our Own OR Not. I await. PEACE:RONB

Thanks Deft Tones for your Bravery. PEACE:RONB

.....Thanks for putting all together in cohesive experiences.....very good.
Mark.

 

[hvacker]

It's tough to be a cop today. A cop often doesn't know if they are dealing with a nut case or not.
A cop has something few of us have over much of human behavior, Authority.

There is one right we all have, the First Amendment Right of Redress.
The approach Terry S. took on the occasions he mentioned works for both the officer and Terry.
I'm suggesting that there is a Best Place to challenge an authority and it's probably not confronting a cop.

Now about where to challenge those confrontations from that in your eyes have no authority.
A man who's thinking is he owns it all. The woman who's bun is a bit too tight. Those confronting you
that should have stayed home. These controlling attempts pi$$ everyone off.
I've always been the square plug being forced into the round hole. Not by choice, just how I turned out.
I think there are other square plugs on T'Net. Some of us have confrontation as part of our composition. Not that
it's what we seek, and there are those that thrive on confrontation, they live for it. Personally I avoid that type. It's just
our nature to challenge/confront those that present controlling issues. Live free or die I guess.

I see a huge difference between neurotic controlling personalities and an Authority.
A neurotic person I define as one who knows 2+2=4 but can't stand it. They think everything is their business. If you
ignore them they just get closer even in your face. They are who your most likely to be confronted by, either in person or when they call a cop.
Pain in the butt types and they breed uncontrolled.

Whatyagonnado? We were born into a world with these people and their problems . A possible solution to this type might be
to look so inherently dangerous only a cop would dare challenge you.
And take Mean Lessons!!

 

[BARKER]

Hi Folks; I hereby wish to draw this Thread away from Deft Tones and instead make the point I've stated and advocated for. The Point I made IS: Do you think We here should Teach Our younger generations on how to personally deal with these situations involving the denial of Our Rights I stated that I, for me, Personally believe that We here ALL have a Duty to teach Our younger generations these very strategies as are and have been espoused here MANY times. I also asked if you Folks feel the same way ok.
Yup Tom, The Courts sometimes DO make decisions that are not in Our favor. THAT is their Right and which I agree We obey. But not to cow tail to every Blue boy that comes along and that if We see or hear about a Law or Resolution that is against Our hobby that We here should work to have it Rescinded ok. So it is with this all said, What say ye Folks regarding my Points I await. PEACE:RONB

 

[hvacker]

BARKER, I'm still not sure what "Rights" your referring to. Like the Congressman that carries a copy of the constitution in his pocket, carrying a copy of the Rights you said you have might be an idea.
Your Rights have been and will continue to be amended. What was once written is not necessarily what is now law/rules/regulations.
Please though, what Rights?? Public lands are not w/o rules. Authority is given to agencies who write rules that supersede supposed Rights. Even in the wild West it didn't take long to create rules about Land Grants, trespass after the range wars.

 

[BARKER]

Hi hvacker; We DO have the Right to enjoy Our parks and beaches as We see fit as long as no harm is being done to them. We paid the Taxes for them to be created in the first place. In metal detecting yes We dig holes but they are, supposedly, filled back in thus showing no sign of damage or harm anywhere. Thus the Hobby of metal detecting creates absolutely NO cause for concern in these matters. It is a matter of Arbitrary choice when an Officer comes and tells Us that We can NOT detect there anymore. Explain to me the Justice in the banning of detecting Our local beaches & parks. There is NONE. Unless it is disturbing a "KNOWN" Historical area. NOT to have detecting banned just because some bureaucrat thinks it's a good idea. To me THAT is just plain Tyranny any way you cut it and it is THIS that I deign to fight against regardless of where it occurs ok. I await. PEACE:RONB

 

[BARKER]

Hi TOM; I understand your points and agree with most of it but strangely I got to thinking today, it happens sometimes Folks, that ya knows, If We keep tip toeing through the Tulips of Life then We will soon be pushing Daisy's Ourselves.!!! lol. PEACE:RONB

PS: Another words if We keep trying to appease everyone We will NEVER get anywhere ok.

 

[hvacker]

Barker, you and I maybe should have been born 150 years ago. Thinking of the simplicity of the Constitution compared to my lawyer's office with the book shelves filled with rules and rec's. I didn't take long to complicate things.
Once an infraction might get you busted, today it might get you shot.