Ozark Well/Cistern Update, Part II

[MiddenMonster]

OK, back to the action...

This is a shot from about 7'-8' away. You might not be able to see it, but the opening to the well is covered by the cooling radiator from a refridgerator or something:

Note the strange concrete extension in the upper left on the concrete. Not sure what its function was, but it looks like a flowerbox. It's broken now:

A shot of the opening with my foot in the frame for scale reference. Just to the right of my foot you can see the reflection of the flash, and you can almost see the pin-head sized deer ticks crawling up the leg of my jeans. Ain't Lyme disease great... You can also see how difficult it might be to get more than one person down the hatch and into the well. I think the inside it gets a bit wider, but not wider than the outer span of the concrete:

These last two pictures are from a different angle, showing the well and opening with the grill cover off:

Hope that this feeds your jones and holds everyone till fall. I doubt I'm going to fight this brush in the summer months. It's probably for the best since it gives me more time to come up with a good and safe way to do this right. I'm open to any and all suggestions as to how to go about it. If anyone can determine dating on this from the pictures I'd be interested in that, too. You can never do too much preliminary investigating, and dating it would go a long way toward knowing what might be down there. I was hoping to set up a frame with a pulley above it, and use a trash pump with a 15' lift capacity to drain the well. Then I was going to descend into the depths to see what lies below. Hopefully, this won't be my final resting place. If anything changes I'll post updates.

 

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[warsawdaddy]

Hey, MM, looks very intriquing. Don't forget to detect areas around the cistern if there are any good landmarks you can make out.What part (area) of the ozarks are you in?

 

[MiddenMonster]

Hey, MM, looks very intriquing. Don't forget to detect areas around the cistern if there are any good landmarks you can make out.What part (area) of the ozarks are you in?

I'd like to detect around the well, and could probably do a fairly efficient job of it for about 10' in all directions. There are two problems, however. The first is that the water you see surrounding this well is there year round, making the area a virtual swamp. Being near the bottom of the hill there is water constantly being forced out of the ground from above. I think the term for this is an Artesian well, and there are scores of places, if not hundreds of places where water is coming up out of the ground and running downhill to form the creeks and streams in the pictures. The second problem is that over the decades there has been literally tons of junk dumped down in the "holler". Several refridgerators, Volkswagon parts, gas and paint cans, building materials, etc. I even found an old tricycle that is probably from the 1950s. It's all metal and looks like the forerunner to the plastic Big Wheel tricycles. It's all rusted out and beyond restoration. There is also a lot of small, rusted pieces of metal used in putting up fences, nails and other assorted hardware. It's scattered over several acres. I wouldn't even begin to know how to search an area this polluted.

As I mentioned in previous posts on this subject, this well is about 200 yards from the rock foundation of an old building of undetermined age. There are several foundation stones that are about 18"x10"x10" that form the square of the foundation and a center line down the middle (to support the floor joists. About 30 yards from the foundation is a fallen tree with a diameter of about 30". The foundation and fallen tree are located uphill from the well. Come winter I'll definitely be detecting around both of those sites. Since this is big deer hunting country I need to be careful when I'm down here, and try to work when the season is off. For the record, I've heard that several of the permanent residents here poach and eat deer year round. It's common to hear gun shots day or night.

The area is in the SW quadrant of Missouri. In doing KGC research I found out that Jesse James moved about in this area. No way to know if he crossed this land, but he robbed a bank about 30 miles from here and had a hideout about 20 miles from here. It would be interesting to know what the area looked like 100+ years ago. Too bad there aren't any aerial photos!

 

[shorty]

I just bought a 250 pound lift power magnet from Harbor Freight for $18. It comes with an eyebolt for a rope. If it were me I would lower one around in there to see what you come up with. A 250 pound lift can lift something that has just a little ferrous metal. Buckles etc. {guns?}

 

[vic910]

Looks like a fantastic site! Please be careful though. I hope when you do go down into it that you're not planning on doing it alone! Good luck and I can't wait to see what you find!

vicki

 

[MiddenMonster]

I just bought a 250 pound lift power magnet from Harbor Freight for $18. It comes with an eyebolt for a rope. If it were me I would lower one around in there to see what you come up with. A 250 pound lift can lift something that has just a little ferrous metal. Buckles etc. {guns?}

Good idea. Someone mentioned that a while back and I forgot about it. $18 ain't a bad price, either and I have a Harbor Freight near my house. Definitely hip to that idea and will buy one this summer. I think the well has had a lot of brush dropped into it over the years, so I may have to use a grappling hook to clear it out before I can even see how deep it is or drop a magnet to the bottom. I'm getting all jazzed up just thinking about what might have been tossed in over the years.

 

[Monty]

With all that ground water around I doubt you would ever be able to pump it dry. You might clean it out enough so that the water will clear up and a diver can go down and take a look. JIM

 

[MiddenMonster]

With all that ground water around I doubt you would ever be able to pump it dry. You might clean it out enough so that the water will clear up and a diver can go down and take a look. JIM

We'll see. It will all come down to how quickly the well recharges. As long as I can pump it faster than it fills there should be no problem. Even coffer dams leak some water. There's an overflow pipe on one side of the structure, but I've never seen water flowing from it. To be honest, I'm more worried about the bottom being similar to quicksand or deep sloppy mud and me getting stuck down under.

Looks like a fantastic site! Please be careful though. I hope when you do go down into it that you're not planning on doing it alone! Good luck and I can't wait to see what you find!

Definitely! One of the reasons I didn't do it this spring was because the friends I was rounding up to help me couldn't get away from their jobs on such short notice. It's not a good idea to be out in these woods by yourself anyway, and being by yourself while doing risky things like pumping out wells and crawling inside would be asking for trouble. Who knows? I may end up finding someone in the well who tried doing that decades ago. All of it is speculation, though as no one I've talked to knows of anything other than rocks and tree limbs being tossed in. I just know that if I were a kid 100 years or so ago I would have been tossing any variety of objects down the well to hear the splash or see how deep it was. And if I were old enough to rob banks and old people I could see dropping a bag of loot into a well as a temporary cache. The question is, did people back then think like I do now?

 

[Emperor Findus Cladius]

Looks promising, good luck and keep us posted!!

 

[1320]

I have a few comments...first, the over flow may be clogged.....or your well/cistern has turned into a "creek".? Judging by all the surrounding water in one of your photos, it is possible that the bottom of your well has "blown" out.? In other words, a constant flow of water thru the bottom of it.? Some of the below suggestions can help you determine this.? If you discover a blow out....move on....the goodies will be somewhere in the water table, probably miles from the well.

I would be concerned about contaminated water and more importantly contaminated air or lack of it.? I have seen many dead critters in the bottoms of wells.? Yes, dead bodies have been pulled out as well.? Many men have died in these wells due to lack of fresh air.? And yes, some have drowned because they thought that they could get out before the water rose.? Some have died as a result of a combination of these two things.? Wear a hard hat, debris happens!? A quality light source both with you and above you.? Widening the entrance would be nice but I doubt that you have that option.? Be prepared to pull ALOT of debris off the bottom.? It would be wise to hard probe the bottom (rebar) to determine the depth of the muck.?

A solids handling trash pump, get some of the muck out.? If you go this route, rent, buy or borrow the biggest inlet/out you can.? These pumps can only digest solids half as big as those measurements.? If you have the luxury, a pump that has easy access to the volute is a plus, you will clog the pump.? Even better would be to have a fresh water source (lots of volume) to pump down into the well as you're pumping out to get the solids in better suspension.? It will help you get more of the muck out and will also keep the volute cleaner.

To do it right, a tripod over the opening and your butt in a harness.? It will affect your mobility but could save your life.? Make sure your helper can crank your weight out of the hole.? Two would be better than one because if you come out of the bottom unconscious, it will be difficult to get your limp body back thru the narrow opening.? Don't unhook the harness until your feet are back on terra firma.

Wait until winter.? The air and water temps remain fairly constant in these things and if there is a snake or two in the area, this is where you will find it, especially if there is a snake food source close by (frogs, etc).?

If you haven't already, completely cover the opening with something solid to keep out this years leaf fall.? Make sure you have a cell phone that gets reception at the site....test this before you arrive to dig.? I promise, if you show up prepared to go in and the phone isn't working, you're gonna go in anyway (I would!).?

If you can afford it or borrow it, secure a submersible drop camera/TV, black and white, not color.? I've seen them as cheap as $90.? I bought one from Cabela's ($200 shipped) and it is good.? You don't get much depth perception with them but it will give you an idea of what's down there.?

Good soles on your shoes.? You will encounter nails and broken glass.? An updated tetanus shot wouldn't hurt!? Alot of wells back in the day had gazebo type roofs over them and the support for them was usually 2x2's or 4x4's and those supports were sunk into the well. Some are still standing but will be just below the water level.? If you have a legit concrete cistern, the floor will most likely be concrete so you won't have to worry about the roof supports.

Plan and rehearse.? Do a "dry run".? If you use a hoist, test it.? Also simulate an unconscious extraction.? Oh yeah, take a ladder long enough to get you out in the event the harness/tripod fails.? Talk to your companions the entire time you're on the bottom.? Verbalize every move.? This will make them feel more comfortable as you work, they won't be able to see you good.? And, if you are encountering a bad air situation, they may pick up clues by hearing changes in your voice.? You won't realize if you're being overcome by a contaminent but your body will begin to shut down.? You may continue to work but your speech will drop off dramatically.? This would be a clue for your buddies to get you out.

I'd say that it's not a very deep well based on the water table description that you've given, unless the well was dug during a dry spell.? Wells predate cisterns for the most part but wells were often converted into cisterns, no telling how old.

I realize alot of this sounds morbid but you are taking on a serious risk.? I would contemplate as many bad scenarios with your helper and formulate solutions and talk them out loud.? ?Seconds will count if something goes wrong and the last thing you need your helpers doing is thinking of what to do to save your life....plan it out so that they already know what to do and won't waste precious seconds trying to figure it out on their own.?

Will you find something?? Yes.? Have you heard of the well in Rome that was excavated a few years ago?? Over 14,000 coins in it, jewelry, ivory, you name it.? It was a public well so your results will probably vary!? Is it worth it?? Yes.? It is fun, even if you find nothing.? If you find nothing, don't be discouraged, move on to the next well...they are everywhere and eventually you will hit some good stuff.?

I forgot to address how to remove the contents.....sorry,? this is dependent upon how much working room you have in the bottom.? There are many solutions but my general advice would be for you to be out of the well when the debris is coming out.? Small shovels and 5 gallon buckets will serve you well but you will have to modify the bucket (handle) so that you can drop a hook/line into the well to retrieve/pull them out.? I do not suggest filling a bucket, unbuckling your harness, friends pulling bucket up then relowering bucket, then rebuckling.? Chances are, you will start feeling comfortable and make a decision to stay unbuckled.

Best of luck and can't wait to see you finds posted later this year.? For what it's worth, decide before digging who gets what or what percentage share each of you will get.? If you're lucky, you'll have some help that is just plain ole interested in what you do but that seldom happens.? Make sure that if you pull up a bar of gold, tell your help there's another one down there but you need to come up for some fresh air first, chances are they won't abandon you while you're down in the well!? It is proper protocol that nothing gets looked at until the digger is out of the hole.? This is what I like about the "pull the buckets out later" approach.? In my opinion, the digger is taking the risk and should be rewarded with the best find or a slightly bigger percentage.? If you find some goodies, your help will want to accompany you on future digs and then you can get into a rotation of digging and splitting the goods.? Don't forget, you can't do it without them, no way.? And if you do find some good stuff, make sure you have dug all the wells/cisterns within 100 miles 'cause everyone will be doing it.? It would also be kind of you to leave some form of communication that you have excavated the well.? I wouldn't put my name on it but not a bad idea since this is a risky hobby.? You would want to know that a well had been excavated before you go thru all that trouble and risk injury/death. It's also a good way to "hold" a recently discovered well that you may want to dig in the future (slick ain't I!).


I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.......

 

[MiddenMonster]

I have a few comments...first, the over flow may be clogged.....or your well/cistern has turned into a "creek". Judging by all the surrounding water in one of your photos, it is possible that the bottom of your well has "blown" out. In other words, a constant flow of water thru the bottom of it. Some of the below suggestions can help you determine this. If you discover a blow out....move on....the goodies will be somewhere in the water table, probably miles from the well.

I believe there is a constant flow of water filling it from below, but there has always been a creek running next to it (as far as anyone can remember). It's fed from higher up on the hill and is formed by several convergences of water coming up out of the ground. I don't think the water seen in the pictures is coming from the well itself. What I don't know is if the well is filling as water is forced out of the bedrock (aquafer) or if there was an actual spring flowing and the well was built up around it.

I would be concerned about contaminated water and more importantly contaminated air or lack of it. I have seen many dead critters in the bottoms of wells.

I'm sure there are a lot of dead critters in there. If the water level is low and an animal fell in there is no way it could get out. I used to see frogs playing in there, too. I'm expecting to find the bones and skulls of many animals when I drain it. A Dire Wolf would be nice, but the well is a few thousand years too young for that...

I have thought about swamp gas, however and have considered taking a lighted candle down and checking the air every so often by lighting the candle.

Yes, dead bodies have been pulled out as well. Many men have died in these wells due to lack of fresh air. And yes, some have drowned because they thought that they could get out before the water rose. Some have died as a result of a combination of these two things. Wear a hard hat, debris happens! A quality light source both with you and above you. Widening the entrance would be nice but I doubt that you have that option. Be prepared to pull ALOT of debris off the bottom. It would be wise to hard probe the bottom (rebar) to determine the depth of the muck.

No way to widen it. I'd have to destroy the well in the process and I'm counting on the concrete to be solid enough to hold everything up when the water is drained. I've visited the site several times over the years, and have never seen the water visibly rise as I stood there, but that's something to consider. If that happened, hopefully I could float up with the water and get out that way.

A solids handling trash pump, get some of the muck out. If you go this route, rent, buy or borrow the biggest inlet/out you can. These pumps can only digest solids half as big as those measurements. If you have the luxury, a pump that has easy access to the volute is a plus, you will clog the pump. Even better would be to have a fresh water source (lots of volume) to pump down into the well as you're pumping out to get the solids in better suspension. It will help you get more of the muck out and will also keep the volute cleaner.

I don't think water supply will be a problem--last time I was up there in the fall the ground was very swampy and the creek was full and flowing. The trash pump is on the list, and it was recommended that I get one with at least a 15' lift capacity. I'm also going to make some sieves out of wire mesh and 2x4's.

To do it right, a tripod over the opening and your butt in a harness. It will affect your mobility but could save your life. Make sure
your helper can crank your weight out of the hole. Two would be better than one because if you come out of the bottom unconscious, it will be difficult to get your limp body back thru the narrow opening. Don't unhook the harness until your feet are back on terra firma.

Point taken. I have several Swiss Seat ropes for rapelling, and am trying to get at least two friends and my brother to help with this.

Wait until winter. The air and water temps remain fairly constant in these things and if there is a snake or two in the area, this is where you will find it, especially if there is a snake food source close by (frogs, etc).

Heh, heh...the ticks and chiggers made that decision for me! No way can I handle them varmint crawling all over me!

Make sure you have a cell phone that gets reception at the site....test this before you arrive to dig. I promise, if you show up prepared to go in and the phone isn't working, you're gonna go in anyway (I would!).

That's going to be a problem. The reception is this rural areas is spotty to begin with, and the well is located at the bottom of a hollow (holler', if your from the country). I've been looking at two-way radios, though.

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[1320]

"Holler", oh yeah, I'm from Kentucky! I still haven't figured out what the "head of the holler" is though.

Sounds like you've thought this thru pretty "well". You'll have fun. Can't wait to see what you find.

 

[MiddenMonster]

"Holler", oh yeah, I'm from Kentucky! I still haven't figured out what the "head of the holler" is though.

Sounds like you've thought this thru pretty "well". You'll have fun. Can't wait to see what you find.

I keep thinking I can figure out how to beat the ticks, and I can find a way to do this in the summer months. Then, my head clears and I realize that ticks have made our lives miserable for thousands of years, and I'm not going to be the one to solve the problem. But thinking about what might be down the well makes me keep thinking those thoughts, and I force myself to wait and plan. Even if it turns out that there is nothing valuable hidden under the water and mud, I can't imagine there not being anything at all.

BTW, "head of the holler" is where the two ridges that form the holler meet the main ridge of the mountain. Found this, hope it helps:

http://www2.usenetarchive.org/Dir62/File30.html
"A holler is situated between two steep ridges that run like so many fingers off a major ridge or mountain. The head of the holler is where the two ridges join the main ridge and the holler begins; the foot of the holler is where the holler ends, usually opening out into a broader valley. Every holler has a watercourse -- a stream, some small, some quite large -- running down the center."

Don't get lost in the holler...

 

[1320]

Skin so Soft (Avon) is good bug repellant, works on ticks too. Smells good and conditions your skin at the same time!

Thar ain't no ticks on me
Thar ain't no ticks on me

Thar might be ticks on some of you chicks
But thar ain't no ticks on me.....

....Avon radio jingle for Skin so Soft...song was sung by a "hound dog" character, too funny.

 

[PrizmIV]

Hey I'm from Bama! We got alot of those wells down here but Ive never thought of doing this. The regular radios at Wally World (FRS) they are only two watts of power. You will probally need some more power. They make radios that are called GMRS. You would most likely need those. But the problem is that you would have to have an FCC license to operate them. But, you don't need an license to transmit on the first 7 FRS channels. And since the GMRS radios are 5 watts that should cover you good. You also might want to consider a lapel mic. Because in an event it is hard to get your radio off of your belt exspecially with a harness on.
http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog_name=CTLG&category_name=CTLG_008_009_008_003&Page=1