Prospecting restrictions in the Auburn recreation area

[infotraker]

I received a PDF file sent to many of us in the Motherlode gold hounds club out of Auburn Ca. I tried to copy the contents here but the copy failed. It refers to new regulations in the Auburn Folsom recreation area. It appears that the new regulation permits only hands and pans prospecting. This new regulation will severely affect all prospectors in the American river area.

 

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[infotraker]

Went out on the n. Fork above mineral bar, no sightings. Little gold but a great day in nature. Maybe if letters, phones calls etc. do not change the regs we can stage a dig in at the confluence or elsewhere . Lots of prospectors and families gather , auburn journal contacted along with sac tv news. Let the rec people know and have everyone do a little digging. Kids with plastic shovels and buckets etc.

 

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[Clay Diggins]

Went out on the n. Fork above mineral bar, no sightings. Little gold but a great day in nature.

The area at and upriver from the mineral bar campground is under an active mining claim. The ASRA management district ends just north of the claim boundary. You were either prospecting on the Eileen claim or you were outside of the ASRA.

The mineralization on the Eileen claim at mineral bar comes from the contact zone with the serpentine deposit there. Upriver is mostly Graywacke until you reach the north of the north confluence so I wouldn't expect you would find much gold through that stretch of the river.

Heavy Pans

 

[jere64ca]

Went out on the n. Fork above mineral bar, no sightings. Little gold but a great day in nature. Maybe if letters, phones calls etc. do not change the regs we can stage a dig in at the confluence or elsewhere . Lots of prospectors and families gather , auburn journal contacted along with sac tv news. Let the rec people know and have everyone do a little digging. Kids with plastic shovels and buckets etc.

I have fond memories of the North Fork above Mineral bar, pulled many ounces out of there back in the day. And by the way, upstream from Mineral Bar is designated a Wild and Scenic River and is OUTSIDE of ASRA, so that may be why you did not have any visits from State Park Rangers. Rangers do like writing parking tickets there though.

ASRA has been operating under an INTERIM Resource Management Plan, there were public meetings/workshops in late 2015 to develop the new Management Plan. As late as August 25, 2016 State Parks are still quoting the INTERIM Plan. Miners/Prospectors involvement in the development of this new plan is the best option to keep ASRA open.

Does anyone know the status of the new Resource Management Plan?

 

[Goldwasher]

I just talked to a guy who works at Rucky Chucky. he has an inflatable with a motor. he is blow mining as in using a jet of water to clear overburden. He was visited by three DFW agents either Monday or Tuesday. I forget what he said. Any how they told him motors are banned as of January sb637 blah blah blah. He said he told them he is just using it to move over burden so he can snipe. The lead said well thats a bit of a gray area but, I don't see anything I'm going to cite you for. he said they come after him every year.

take that for what it's worth granted it was DFW and not a "Park Ranger" he is right on the middle fork where that other guy got the ticket that had a thread here so, it's not like the rangers don't know about him.
He says he thinks they sent three down because they expected he was dredging and would need to take his gear. He made it sound like he's had to prove he isn't several times.

 

[KevinInColorado]

Wow just wow.

 

[Asmbandits]

I just talked to a guy who works at Rucky Chucky. he has an inflatable with a motor. he is blow mining as in using a jet of water to clear overburden. He was visited by three DFW agents either Monday or Tuesday. I forget what he said. Any how they told him motors are banned as of January sb637 blah blah blah. He said he told them he is just using it to move over burden so he can snipe. The lead said well thats a bit of a gray area but, I don't see anything I'm going to cite you for. he said they come after him every year.

take that for what it's worth granted it was DFW and not a "Park Ranger" he is right on the middle fork where that other guy got the ticket that had a thread here so, it's not like the rangers don't know about him.
He says he thinks they sent three down because they expected he was dredging and would need to take his gear. He made it sound like he's had to prove he isn't several times.

I witnessed a guy on the north for of the middle fork American a couple years back using a pump from shore and a hookah air setup to do basically what this guy was describing, I also witnessed a Forest service truck up on the road stop and holler down to him " Thats not a dredge is it?" he said no sir and they were like " oh ok thanks!" and just drove off.. It just shows how ridiculous this ban is honestly, just like how you cant use a portable dry vacuum but if you can get the same dirt with a shovel or anything else its ok.. So ridiculous..

 

[Goldwasher]

I witnessed a guy on the north for of the middle fork American a couple years back using a pump from shore and a hookah air setup to do basically what this guy was describing, I also witnessed a Forest service truck up on the road stop and holler down to him " Thats not a dredge is it?" he said no sir and they were like " oh ok thanks!" and just drove off.. It just shows how ridiculous this ban is honestly, just like how you cant use a portable dry vacuum but if you can get the same dirt with a shovel or anything else its ok.. So ridiculous..

I don't see why you can't use a crac vac

 

[Capt Nemo]

If it's going hands and pans, take a sturdy steel pan with riffles, and weld a shovel handle to it! It's a pan! Just make some swirling motions as you carry the dirt over to your bucket of cons.

Fight stupidity, with stupidity!

The entire universe is composed of protons, electrons, neutrons, and morons. Guess what California has in abundance!

 

[Asmbandits]

I don't see why you can't use a crac vac

I get what your getting at, but im not currently in the positon to try and prove my point in the field outright and end up being the next Brandon R. Im all for standing up for my rights but I also have a family to feed and am not in the position to be made an example of by some unrealistic government official. I do use my dewalt cordless vac frequently in inconspicuous areas but am also cautious while doing so given the wording of SB-637. I can see them trying to enforce upon me these regulations that may or may not pertain to what im actually doing but the wording is more inviting for them to let the court decide it and push the issue.

Going off of what has been posted here regarding SB-637 and the confusion of high banking, and that no where does it state anything about high bankers, and dredge is not a high banker and I understand that. However I do see how a court could try to tie in Vacuums given it specifically states vacuums OR suction dredges, and a dewalt cordless vacuum I don't see how I could argue that its not a motorized vacuum. Its not like I am on there side with this or am trying to undermined our rights, im just expressing where my concern is derived from.

From SB-637

" Suction dredge mining: permits.
Existing law prohibits the use of any vacuum or suction dredge
equipment by any person in any river, stream, or lake of this state
without a permit issued by the Department of Fish and Wildlife.
Existing law requires the department to issue a permit, if the
department determines that the use of a vacuum or suction dredge will
not be deleterious to fish, upon the payment of a specified fee."

Please let me know what im overlooking that would not include Vacuums in with this, I would love to be wrong on this but like I said the wording, even more so that the confusion with high banking is more influence to me to believe that I could be sited for this. Yes could there be something that makes it not the case, im sure you will shed light on this and I am hopefully of this, I still think that given the wording that what actually happens out in the field could be different from what should happen.

 

[MadMarshall]

Its not what you are overlooking ......its that you are reading to much into what you have..

 

[Nitric]

Reading some of this stuff......This stuff is insane!!!!!! as far as all the nonsense you guys have to go through just to mine a little.

I would think the definition of Vacuum could be challenged. Is the movement of water a vacuum? When I think of vacuum I think of air movement or empty space. Is there a definition of vacuum in Hydraulics?

I'm sure all of you guys have already been over this.....

 

[Goldwasher]

how do you use a cordless 18 v dewalt vacuume in a river ,lake or stream.....bzzzzzz....bzzzz.... fizz

 

[Nitric]

how do you use a cordless 18 v dewalt vacuume in a river ,lake or stream.....bzzzzzz....bzzzz.... fizz

ONE of my first failures in trying to make tools...Was a leaf blower on top of a bucket to suck sand out of a creek(for ohio glacial gold), Thought about and thought about it...Worked on that thing all weekend. All proud of my stainless screws and "my design", adapter I made to mount my brand new leaf blower too! Ummmm? then used it one time in the water and had to laugh and ask myself..."ok? now what stupid? how was the water supposed to leave out the top hole?"(in side of bucket at top). I have no clue why I thought it was going to suck in the hose and drain out the top. I probably shouldn't have admitted to that! It works, but you gotta be quick!!!!

Ohh well, I have a very nice dry dirt, gas powered vac. If I ever needed one!

 

[Asmbandits]

how do you use a cordless 18 v dewalt vacuume in a river ,lake or stream.....bzzzzzz....bzzzz.... fizz

Ive felt that this would be the interpenetration catch as well, it says in a river stream or lake but it also doesn't say water or in water. But, then there is also this to consider>

(d) It is unlawful to possess a vacuum or suction dredge in areas,
or in or within 100 yards of waters, that are closed to the use of
vacuum or suction dredges.

Sure it would be straight up absurd to think this would apply to all vacuums given every day circumstances, but someone with obvious intent to mine wiith a vac within 100 feet? it makes you think, or at least it makes me think. and if it makes me think im sure some offical would have that though as well.

? I get it im sure there is something to stand on in court but I could see trying to talk my way through this ridiculousness in the field and them just referring back to " its a vacuum right? what does it say right here??" It just doesn't seam as cut and dry of an argument in the field as something like a high banker given the wording used, and I see it being more of a risk is all.

Victor what is it I missing please explain, I want to use my vac but just want some understanding or I guess, ground to stand on in a confrontation.

 

[Asmbandits]

Reading some of this stuff......This stuff is insane!!!!!! as far as all the nonsense you guys have to go through just to mine a little.

I would think the definition of Vacuum could be challenged. Is the movement of water a vacuum? When I think of vacuum I think of air movement or empty space. Is there a definition of vacuum in Hydraulics?

I'm sure all of you guys have already been over this.....

Wait, this could be it, could it? Is it that the wording is just that referring to a vacuum OR suction dredge as in the force used to lift material with a dredge being either vacuum or suction withing the dredging process??

 

[Nitric]

Wait, this could be it, could it? Is it that the wording is just that referring to a vacuum OR suction dredge as in the force used to lift material with a dredge being either vacuum or suction withing the dredging process??

I may be off, or going over something that someone else has already...But "suction" doesn't seem to fit how a dredge works either, in my opinion. It's not Air moving or lack of. It's fluid (water)! Where does suction or vacuum belong in terminology for this type of equipment?

added...
Suction may fit..https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/suction is the movement of water suction? It's flow! does gravity suck water? is flow suction? I guess I need to read a little......

Even then, the dredge needs "adapted"(in some small way) and terminology changed to buy more time....Like things are done in every other subject.."The new improved, floating, water reaction machine!" This one doesn't operate on "suction" or "Vacuum". It works on "action and reaction"..

 

[Clay Diggins]

I think you have all been watching too many TV law shows. With your definitions you couldn't operate a car or use a vacuum cleaner within 300 feet of a river, stream, or lake in California.

The law clearly states that a "vacuum or suction dredge" is what is being regulated. It's being regulated "in any river, stream, or lake".

How you folks can twist that to mean houses near streams can't vacuum their carpets or cars with motors are prohibited near lakes is beyond me. The fact that some of the old goobers on here take pleasure in seeing you fall for this nonsense is sic sic sic.

In the meantime miners still mine.

Heavy Pans

 

[Nitric]

I think you have all been watching too many TV law shows. With your definitions you couldn't operate a car or use a vacuum cleaner within 300 feet of a river, stream, or lake in California.

The law clearly states that a "vacuum or suction dredge" is what is being regulated. It's being regulated "in any river, stream, or lake".

How you folks can twist that to mean houses near streams can't vacuum their carpets or cars with motors are prohibited near lakes is beyond me. The fact that some of the old goobers on here take pleasure in seeing you fall for this nonsense is sic sic sic.

In the meantime miners still mine.

Heavy Pans

I think I see what you are saying..."vacuum or suction dredge" is the same as "vacuum dredge or suction dredge". Same meaning?

Has nothing to do with any other tools. I still like the idea of renaming the "new and approved" dredge, it doesn't operate on vacuum or suction. To buy you guys more time!

 

[Clay Diggins]

Ive felt that this would be the interpenetration catch as well, it says in a river stream or lake but it also doesn't say water or in water. But, then there is also this to consider>

(d) It is unlawful to possess a vacuum or suction dredge in areas,
or in or within 100 yards of waters, that are closed to the use of
vacuum or suction dredges.

It's plain English. See what the difference here is-

The law as written:
It is unlawful to possess a vacuum or suction dredge

The law if it was meant to include vacuums along with suction dredges:
It is unlawful to possess a vacuum or a suction dredge

The law if it was meant to include vacuum and suction and dredges:
It is unlawful to possess a vacuum or a suction or a dredge.

The last one seems off because neither vacuum or suction can stand alone as the object of the sentence. Objects are nouns, noun phrases, or pronouns. Neither vacuum or suction by themselves are a noun, noun phrase, or pronoun in the way the law is written so when you try to make the sentence mean several things you run out of objects after the noun dredge.

In the law as written there is only one object implied - a dredge. The vacuum part and the suction part are known as a modifiers when written as they are in the law.

It's much the same sentence structure as "It is unlawful to possess a blue or green dredge". Obviously the modifier green is not the object that's being referred to. Clearly the dredge is the object.

It would be silly to assume that blue or green things are "unlawful to possess" just as it's silly to think that vacuum or suction is whats "unlawful to possess". With as many references to dredging that are in the law you don't see vacuum or suction being treated as an object by themselves.

This law does not affect non suction dredges. Dragline, clamshell and bucket dredges are not the subject (or the object) of this law. Suction and vacuum are used as modifiers to the noun dredge so there will be no confusion with other types of dredges. Laws have to be specific and those modifiers fit the bill perfectly when you understand the sentence structure.

I'm guessing along with mining history the California schools went a little light on grammar too?
Don't sweat it most people didn't pay attention in English after 10 years of the stuff. It's boring and it can be like swimming in mud but much like math it does come in handy when you need it and when it comes to figuring out the meaning of written laws it's essential.

Heavy Pans

 

[Asmbandits]

I think you have all been watching too many TV law shows. With your definitions you couldn't operate a car or use a vacuum cleaner within 300 feet of a river, stream, or lake in California.

The law clearly states that a "vacuum or suction dredge" is what is being regulated. It's being regulated "in any river, stream, or lake".

How you folks can twist that to mean houses near streams can't vacuum their carpets or cars with motors are prohibited near lakes is beyond me. The fact that some of the old goobers on here take pleasure in seeing you fall for this nonsense is sic sic sic.

In the meantime miners still mine.

Heavy Pans

Clay, Im not twisting anything, remember im the average joe prospector not someone well versed in this as yourself. It seems no one here is as well vested in this as yourself and I mean that as a complement. That being said it shouldn't be a surprise that someone like myself might have trouble interpreting the poorly worded law put for by not I but the state. More than anything it shows that if someone like myself can have trouble interpreting it, so could the guy writing the citation that im sure probably wont spend as much time trying to make sense of it as I, thats what the courts are for right? The state could have easily have put as Nitric said " vacuum dredge or suction dredge" and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I know I'm not alone with being miss lead, I've heard from many people that have spoke with FS employees that have said a vacuum falls under the same restrictions and would be considered illegal. Ive also heard from some the exact opposite. Given that and the poor wording its no surprise. Its all a mess of interpretation and intent, I never said anything about anyone vacuuming carpets as if their intent was to do just that, its obvious there not mining and I don't see how anyone with half a brain could mix that up if the intent and circumstances weren't so. I could say the same about a baseball bat, sure its a pretty every day object even a child's toy, but you see a man carrying one down the street with it ready to swing now that person has a potentially deadly weapon and what happens next is left up to his intent. Though I wish the world were as cut and dry as some think it is or should be. Im not trying to spread misinformation, Im here to talk gold and seek guidance and opinions from those that might know better, and if possible help those with any relevant knowledge/incite I might have.