Put away your metal detectors sheeple

[diggummup]

Sheeple… make of it what you will. Got your attention, you read the thread, you acted, the legislators know we have an eye on them. All good. We are NOT sheep.

The existing law is about the same now, except that it applies to all State-Owned Land (and ONLY State-Owned-Land, which includes the seafloor from the beach out three miles).

Now, the law as it exists specifies and directs law enforcement to act in support of it. But that would be the jurisdiction as set out now, which is only on State-Owned-Land.

Senator Hays is concerned about the holdings of the Lake County Water District, which is similar to the South Florida Water Management District, the St. Johns Water Management District, ect.. So he, or the Attorney General do not believe that law enforcement has the authority to enforce Chapter 267 in the water districts. His solution: apply 267 to everything (but private property…well, he admits he over did it to start out with).

We did not see the pictures he was talking about, but, relic hunters (probably also using metal detectors) were digging holes where somebody did not like them to be digging holes. By the way, is a hole in the ground prima facie evidence of intent?

These are the holes you are referring to I believe- http://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/alan-hays/regarding-senate-bill-868/279612102111739

Quote from: tarpon192 on Yesterday at 10:45:36 pm

Quote from: ScubaFinder on Yesterday at 12:41:05 pm

Big Scoop,

You have misunderstood the usage and meaning behind the word "sheeple" Terry's point was that the GOVERNMENT is treating us like sheep, Terry is not calling us sheep, its not that hard really. Don't take things out of context and assume they are meant to be insulting to you personally. Terry is a great guy, and his reasons for using the word Sheeple were very obvious to everyone I know.

Jason

Jason is correct. GOVERNMENT is, and alway has treated the AMERICAN people like sheep. Trying to hoard us all. We are not sheep, we are people - AMERICAN CITIZENS WHO HAVE RIGHTS. Many rights are being taken away from all of us little by little - that is the problem. If you are raising children today, they will not have a chance to enjoy what all of us older folks have. It is a shame the people we vote into power walk all over us.
MAY GOD BLESS US ALL, AND HELL WELCOME WITH WIDE OPEN DOORS ALL THOSE WHO ARE DRIVING THIS GREAT COUNTRY DOWN.

Agreed, anyone over the age of 30 (at the least) should be able to see this as fact, (unless the wool is covering your eyes). There are many things deemed illegal or "prohibited" now, then when I was a teenager. I'm 45, i've noticed many changes that restrict personal freedoms that were once commonplace for every citizen. So yes, the term "sheeple" is highly appropriate.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

eborac, you say:

"the Australian bureaucrats beat you with such idiocy by a couple of decades."

Huh? Detecting is common-place in Australia. Especially with nuggets, as you know, there's no shortage of hobbyists going out into the wilderness, old tailings, etc... (unless you are saying they're all hunting private property?) A detecting buddy of mine moved to Australia several years ago. He's a coin/relic guy, not a nugget hunter. He's had his detector out several times now, at parks, beaches, and so forth. He's not had any problems, nor had any reason to suspect he should have problems So what are you referring to? How are all the hunters in Australia doing it, if you are implying that they can't?

 

[capt dom]

Here we have a fore-longed metal detector
on a public beach wondering what happened
to the good old days.....

 

[Killer Angel]

This is gov't gone wild. Overreaching in a big way. Though my read puts me with Tom_in_ca this is definately a very vaguely written piece of legislation. It does give power to archie's and for us that's never a good thing. The law is open to wide interpretation, again, never a good thing.

Arguing with law enforcement who has misinterpreted the law isn't going to lead to a happy ending. As "Political Subdivisions" apply their own reading comprehension to the law, detecting in Fl will become a crap shoot of who got it right and who got it wrong. It will also be used by unscrupulous law enforcement to harass folks out for a day on the beach or park. Like none of us has ever had a run in with a cop taking his job a little to seriously? Now add park rangers, and maintenance workers who will be more than happy to give you all the misguided opinion their sixth grade education allows. IOW, this WILL be a mess!!!!

In reaction to the "None" under economic impact one poster asked a question to the effect 'Are they crazy?" The answer is no they aren't However, they are politicians. As such they will bend statisitcs, ignore facts, and interpret data in a way that supports their position. IOW, they will lie.

The posts suggesting organization are the most effective way to get changes or stop this in it's tracks.

 

[comfortably numb]

The part I don't like is,
135 (2)(a) The division may institute an administrative
136 proceeding to impose an administrative fine of not more than
137 $500 a day on any person or business organization that, without
138 written permission of the division, explores for, salvages, or
139 excavates treasure trove, artifacts, sunken or abandoned ships,
140 or other objects having historical or archaeological value
141 located upon land owned or controlled by the state on state
142 owned or state-controlled lands, including state sovereignty
143 submerged land, or land owned by a political subdivision as
144 defined by s. 1.01(8) lands.
Notice the word EXPLORES! So I'm walking down the beach with my MD and I could be arested for exploring without a permit. even if I have not found anything?

 

[FISHEYE]

You can always go out past the 3 mile limit on the east coast and hunt and keep whatever you want.

 

[Aka Nameless]

We have the same laws in California, I have been told by a park ranger (at the beach), that if I find anything worth over $100 or over 50 years old, I must turn it in.

Florida is lucky to have been overlooked for so long.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Florida is lucky to have been overlooked for so long.

Florida hasn't been overlooked, they have been trying since the 1980's. We have been pushing them back at every turn. This is what we are doing now, and I bet we will succeed again.

 

[Twisted One]

We have the same laws in California, I have been told by a park ranger (at the beach), that if I find anything worth over $100 or over 50 years old, I must turn it in.

Florida is lucky to have been overlooked for so long.

You are correct. I think the 50 year old portion is part of federals antiquity act right? And while I feel there is a place for such a law, the 50 years old section is out dated, since that would now include a 1962 coin. The biggest problem I think to these laws is not the point of the law but the fact that as Tom points out they can be taken out of context, and include areas, and items that were not intended to be protected by these laws.
By the wording of some of these laws picking up a 1960 quarter you found in the parking lot of a state park is considered an artifact and can not be moved.
Was that the original intention of the laws? I doubt it.

 

[ScubaFinder]

The original intention of the law, and the application of the law in the field, can be two VERY different things. This is what we are fighting for, a little clarification and wording changes that lessen the danger of terrible misinterpretation by local officials with an axe to grind. In truth, this state bill is an axe to grind of senator Alan Hayes, who's territory has been riddled by unfilled holes and borrowed water hoses.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey AKA-nameless: Which type of CA beach were you at, when a ranger told you that? A fed beach, state beach, county beach, or city beach?

The "$100" thing is a state law, for anywhere you are. That's the simple lost & found laws that any state has, that were born out of logic centuries ago, that if cattle wandered out of a fence, the next lucky neighbor could keep it because "he found it". Or the logic that if a brinks armored car spills open, it's not fair game for the passerbys who "found" the money, and so forth. There are arbitrary cutoffs values for this, from state to state. You supposedly get the item back, after 30 days, if no one claims it, etc....

The "50 yrs" thing makes me think you were either at a fed or state beach? Please do tell. I'm curious, and will expand on your answer once you say

 

[diggummup]

In reality it boils down to the local law enforcement being inept and unable to catch the i-diots responsible for the holes. So the "friends of Alan Hays" (ie- Archies), can now use this as their platform to make even less area/s available for metal detecting by including not only political subdivisions but also state sovereignty submerged land. This in turn (by their thinking) will give them the good possibilty of more revenue due to unscrupulous ticket/fines being handed out at will by local "officials" at their own discretion (personal interpretation of the law). Especially since they haven't collected any monies from fines since 2006 as it relates to Fl. ss. 267.

Bill analysis-
http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bil...lls/0800-0899/0868/Analysis/2012s0868.bta.PDF

 

[signumops]

Thanks for sending that along to us!

 

[FISHEYE]

New discusson on this at FB


http://www.facebook.com/groups/162198840565602/162296263889193/?notif_t=like

 

[signumops]

Here's the Channel 9 Orlando story, just out.
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/treasure-hunters-worry-about-state-regulation/nLKNx/

 

[seeker41]

New discusson on this at FB


http://www.facebook.com/groups/162198840565602/162296263889193/?notif_t=like

fisheye, i am not on facebook and i dont really want to join. what am i missing out on?
also, did you get my other pm?
chuck.

 

[Bum Luck]

Again I ask, if someone in authority tells you "go ahead", why not "go ahead"? For example if you waltz in to a new town and aren't sure of any potential rules. So you see a cop or a council-man sitting on a park bench. So you walk over to him and ask "can I metal detect here?". He says "sure, go ahead". Ok: do you argue with him? Or do you detect?

And even it's true that that cop or council-man WAS wrong, seems to me that you acted in good faith, had it on written word from an authority, and thus any burden would be on THEM, not you. I for sure do not argue with anyone who tells me "yes". It becomes their problem, not mine, so long as I have their say-so, it's out of my hands. The worst that will happen in that case, is if someone else wishes to over-ride that other person's approval, they're welcome to do so. But until that time, you're operating, in good faith, on the word of a duly-appointed official!

Tom, this is (A) never going to happen, and (B) would have no legal standing at all. No cop or councilman (on a park bench, really!) is going to say anything like this. They will make an arrest based on what you're doing and if they can make it stick in a municipal court whose instructions are to pull in revenue. Everyone's agenda but your own.

I've plenty of experience in this world, take it to the bailiff......

 

[FISHEYE]

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/treasure-hunters-worry-about-state-regulation/nLKNx/

Looks like progress with this bill

Results of meeting:
Pat Cylne posted on FB this:

It was decided that we should have an alternative plan if the Governor refuses to VETO the Bill. A NO VETO from the Governor puts us exactly nowhere. So a plan B was devised. Since a lot of the Bill’s verbiage was based on pre-existing law that could not be changed anyhow, we decided to take advantage of the fact that they, the State, opened this back up to include new amendme...nts. That meant that we also had the opportunity to do the same. However, in this case our amendments would change or strengthen the private sectors role in our industry. We went over every single line of the Bill and revised every word possible that would give us an equal say in the law and how it was administered without the fear of relinquishing due-process. Basically, what we are interjecting is that ‘fair play’ under the State’s pre-existing law (however egregious it already is) should not be denied us.

This revised version was sent to the State just before closing today. They have most of next week to consider it. The State’s options have now become twofold, VETO it or revise it with OUR added amendments. So actually by them opening up these pre-existing laws for amendment it gave us the opportunity to do the same with verbiage that otherwise we could never have included.

The bottom line is that it looks like we have created a win-win situation. First, the State now realizes that WE DO have strength in numbers thanks to all of your contributions, which once again proves that Democracy works when “WE The People” work it. And second, that sometimes even what may look like doom and gloom can be turned into a positive if enough of us believe in what we are doing. Your support has been overwhelming, necessary and much appreciated. Let’s not forget what we can do when we all stick together. More info will follow as it comes in.

Credit for this approach goes to:
Taffi Fisher-Abt, President, Mel Fisher Center, Sebastian, Fl
Jim Sinclair. Archaeologist, VP SEAREX Inc.
Gary Randolph, VP and operations manager Mel Fisher’s Treasure, Key West
John Brandon, Director of the Historic Shipwreck Salvage Policy Council of Florida
Attorney Marlowe White, Tallahassee, Fl.
Special thanks to Jim Smith, who without his political connections, these revised amendments would never had been submitted on time.

 

[old man]

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/treasure-hunters-worry-about-state-regulation/nLKNx/

Looks like progress with this bill

Results of meeting:
Pat Cylne posted on FB this:

It was decided that we should have an alternative plan if the Governor refuses to VETO the Bill. A NO VETO from the Governor puts us exactly nowhere. So a plan B was devised. Since a lot of the Bill’s verbiage was based on pre-existing law that could not be changed anyhow, we decided to take advantage of the fact that they, the State, opened this back up to include new amendme...nts. That meant that we also had the opportunity to do the same. However, in this case our amendments would change or strengthen the private sectors role in our industry. We went over every single line of the Bill and revised every word possible that would give us an equal say in the law and how it was administered without the fear of relinquishing due-process. Basically, what we are interjecting is that ‘fair play’ under the State’s pre-existing law (however egregious it already is) should not be denied us.

This revised version was sent to the State just before closing today. They have most of next week to consider it. The State’s options have now become twofold, VETO it or revise it with OUR added amendments. So actually by them opening up these pre-existing laws for amendment it gave us the opportunity to do the same with verbiage that otherwise we could never have included.

The bottom line is that it looks like we have created a win-win situation. First, the State now realizes that WE DO have strength in numbers thanks to all of your contributions, which once again proves that Democracy works when “WE The People” work it. And second, that sometimes even what may look like doom and gloom can be turned into a positive if enough of us believe in what we are doing. Your support has been overwhelming, necessary and much appreciated. Let’s not forget what we can do when we all stick together. More info will follow as it comes in.

Credit for this approach goes to:
Taffi Fisher-Abt, President, Mel Fisher Center, Sebastian, Fl
Jim Sinclair. Archaeologist, VP SEAREX Inc.
Gary Randolph, VP and operations manager Mel Fisher’s Treasure, Key West
John Brandon, Director of the Historic Shipwreck Salvage Policy Council of Florida
Attorney Marlowe White, Tallahassee, Fl.
Special thanks to Jim Smith, who without his political connections, these revised amendments would never had been submitted on time.

John, Thanks for the update. Hope to see you Sunday or on the return trip Monday.

 

[seeker41]

fisheye, thank you! and thanks to anyone who is in the fight!!!!!!