Put away your metal detectors sheeple

[tarpon192]

Interesting observation, tarpon.

I think his silence is strategic. The less he says, the less we are upset, and the easier the detectors go away.

He is posting on other topics under the shipwreck forum, but not this one. Makes me think 10 fold about him.

 

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[diggummup]

Interesting observation, tarpon.

I think his silence is strategic. The less he says, the less we are upset, and the easier the detectors go away.

He is posting on other topics under the shipwreck forum, but not this one. Makes me think 10 fold about him.

I know he is one of "them" but he resides in Portugal, I don't think he has any dog in this particular race. Lip service wouldn't do him any good here.

 

[signumops]

Early on in this thread, Tom_in_CA advised us to steer clear of the obvious historically important locations to avoid any conflict with the sleeping dogs of authority. That would seem to be a sensible approach. Meanwhile, one of our forum members contacted me regarding his own investigation on the matter. He had innocently made an inquiry to the BAR regarding the historic sites in Florida and where they were. His conversation with Robert Benitus (probably misspelled that) led to the transmission of the Florida Master Site File via email. It was sent to him in spreadsheet format. I asked this member to forward the file to me and I advised him that the file was not a public record and that the master site file was a specific exception to the sunshine law in Florida (Chapter 119).

I got the file, examined it and then let him know that it did not contain any wreck sites or salvage camps, no Indian habitations or mounds, no Seminole War sites or forts, no Spanish settlements/missions, nor any other location of serious interest to the archaeological community. My assumption was that the locations in the file were not of “serious” interest to the archaeological community. In other words, I believed the list to be eyewash. It could not be the Master Site File as we here in Florida know it to be. And, it isn’t.

What the file did contain was a listing of more that 65,000 structures in the state, which the BAR or DHR considered to be of historic significance. Most of these were private residences, but seawalls, boat ramps and commercial structures were included. In some cases, entire blocks of buildings were included, and in the case of Brevard County, many federally controlled structures at Patrick AFB and Kennedy Space Center were listed. Almost all of these buildings were built prior to 1950, but there was at least one built in 1993.

So there is a list… so what? A number of cities in Florida have historic preservation boards that control the construction or, more importantly, the reconstruction of buildings within their borders: Key West being a fine example. St. Augustine is another. Well this list definitely points up the BAR’s stance on the definition of “OLD”, therefore, we must assume such item to be of “archaeological significance” where Chapter 267 is concerned, and now SB 868. The standard, as expressly demonstrated by this list (supposedly the “Master Site File”) is about 50 years.

So now I can hear the next argument: “That only has to do with old buildings, not other stuff”. SB 868 could apply to the curtilage of these sites. This is an important concept in Florida, where trespass and burglary charges are concerned. Look the term up in wiki or elsewhere, then read the trespass and burglary statutes in Florida. The next logical offshoot of Chapter 267 will be titled “Trespass and Burglary of a Designated State Historical Site”. Simple trespass in Florida is a misdemeanor, while conducting “archaeological field investigations” could be a felony. Misdemeanor = county jail; Felony = state prison.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

LADIES & Gentlemen; A small thing for us, but you should give 'Jim Sinclair.' Archaeologist, VP SEAREX Inc. a special thanks since he may be jeopardizing his pro standing on the approved list, title, by siding with the salvers.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[ivan salis]

jim sinclair -- great guy --one of the very few archies I can respect and actually like.

 

[FISHEYE]

Good news everyone!! from Pat Clyne on FB


CONGRATULATIONS EVERYBODY...... THEY DROPPED THE BILL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ladies & Gents, it was through no small effort on ALL of you that Senator Hayes has decided to PULL the Bill.

I just got off of a conference call with the Senator and members of HSSPC. The Senator acknowledged the mass mailings, and said he was grateful that he heard from so many of us and that he would drop not only the bill but he would like to come down to KW for a meeting with our group so that the next time we will be included in any legislation that concerns our interest. I also invited him out for a dive on the Atocha site which he handedly accepted. Stay tuned for more info….. lots more I need to tell ya.

Please read and send your thanks:

More from Pat on FB

There is one more thing I would like each and everyone of you who wrote letters to do. The Senator was extremely polite and sincerely would rather help us than hinder us. So we are setting up a liaison through his suggestion so that none of this will happen again. So to get to my point, I’d all of you to go to Sen. Hays website and thank him for doing what he’s doing and how appreciative we are for him to be in our court in the future. “Today’s The Day!”

Other members of HSSPC who were on the conference call and made this happen:
... Taffi Fisher-Abt
Jim Sinclair
Gary Randolf
John Browning

Here is the Senators FB page, please write a short note to thank him:
http://www.facebook.com/dalanhays?sk=wall

 

[Trembull]

Good news everyone!! from Pat Clyne on FB


CONGRATULATIONS EVERYBODY...... THEY DROPPED THE BILL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sweet - Thanks for the update Fisheye
Awesome news

 

[diggummup]

Good news everyone!! from Pat Clyne on FB


CONGRATULATIONS EVERYBODY...... THEY DROPPED THE BILL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ladies & Gents, it was through no small effort on ALL of you that Senator Hayes has decided to PULL the Bill.

I just got off of a conference call with the Senator and members of HSSPC. The Senator acknowledged the mass mailings, and said he was grateful that he heard from so many of us and that he would drop not only the bill but he would like to come down to KW for a meeting with our group so that the next time we will be included in any legislation that concerns our interest. I also invited him out for a dive on the Atocha site which he handedly accepted. Stay tuned for more info….. lots more I need to tell ya.

I'm waiting to see a legal confirmation of this.

 

[Twisted One]

I agree, everything I am finding on that bill shows it is still in motion.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Archaeologists‏
Communism is a political ideology that is based on a common ownership, mainly concerned with equality and fairness. In communism, the power is vested in a group of people who decide the course of action. It is this group of people who decide on the activities of the public. These groups of people may interfere in the public life of others.

 

[ivan salis]

while clearly I am very happy to hear of the "death' of this horrible bill , and I trust the folks on our end of the phone and I deeply thank these folks who took part in this 'protest" to protect our "public rights" , along with everyone who called,. emailed or otherwise "spoke up' in any way.-- I just want to note the fact that politicans have a nasty habit of promising lots of things to many folks and then not delivering upon them -- so I will only believe its "really" dead when I see this bills corpse "legally' pulled and buried. until then let the flogging keep on.

 

[Alexandre]

LADIES & Gentlemen; A small thing for us, but you should give 'Jim Sinclair.' Archaeologist, VP SEAREX Inc. a special thanks since he may be jeopardizing his pro standing on the approved list, title, by siding with the salvers.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Oh, he has long jeopardize it.. let me think... since he worked for Mel Fisher, maybe?

 

[aquanut]

Alexandre, Do you ever stop being an antagonist. Jim Sinclair happens to be a very reputable archaeologist and a very fine gentleman.
Aquanut

 

[Alexandre]

I know he is one of "them" but he resides in Portugal, I don't think he has any dog in this particular race. Lip service wouldn't do him any good here.

You are absolutely right, diggummup. I only speak of matters where I have a stake.

As I said somewhere else, congratulations on the successful grassroots movement.

 

[Alexandre]

Alexandre, Do you ever stop being an antagonist. Jim Sinclair happens to be a very reputable archaeologist and a very fine gentleman.
Aquanut

I agree on both counts, Aquanut. Me and him are love-to-hate buddies on Sub-Arch since 1998 or something like that.

And everybody knows that he sides with the treasure hunting side - I just made it clear to Don Jose that he does not have to fear for Jim and his position.

 

[ivan salis]

two men - one at the top of a mountion looking downward --the other at the bottom of it looking upward -- they both are looking over the same exact bit of land but they "see' totally differant things --the one at the top "sees" a deep valley --the one at the bottom "sees" a high mountion --each in "his own point of veiw" is correct --yet they have totally opposing "points of veiw' of the truth of what they see.

which one is "right" depends upon where "you" stand --top or bottom -- both are "right" in their view and both are "wrong" in the others "point of view"

often whats "right" is based upon ones 'point of veiw" and ones point of veiw --depends upon where one stands in life. --are you "high up" --or "down low" ?

 

[diggummup]

Alexandre, Do you ever stop being an antagonist. Jim Sinclair happens to be a very reputable archaeologist and a very fine gentleman.
Aquanut

Alexandre, Do you ever stop being an antagonist. Jim Sinclair happens to be a very reputable archaeologist and a very fine gentleman.
Aquanut

I agree on both counts, Aquanut. Me and him are love-to-hate buddies on Sub-Arch since 1998 or something like that.

And everybody knows that he sides with the treasure hunting side - I just made it clear to Don Jose that he does not have to fear for Jim and his position.

Jim Sinclair is the voice of reason and if there were more like him there wouldn't be such a divide amongst the two communities. I think this statement speaks volumes-

"It is a well known fact that the archaeological community has been on a crusade to end private involvement in shipwreck exploration and recovery for decades. It is a power play regarding access to resources pure and simple. There are many varieties of greed, archaeologists who claim that the entire resource should belong only to them are no better than any other covetous group…

Jim Sinclair, MA
Archaeologist"

 

[Alexandre]

two men - one at the top of a mountion looking downward --the other at the bottom of it looking upward -- they both are looking over the same exact bit of land but they "see' totally differant things --the one at the top "sees" a deep valley --the one at the bottom "sees" a high mountion --each in "his own point of veiw" is correct --yet they have totally opposing "points of veiw' of the truth of what they see.

which one is "right" depends upon where "you" stand --top or bottom -- both are "right" in their view and both are "wrong" in the others "point of view"

often whats "right" is based upon ones 'point of veiw" and ones point of veiw --depends upon where one stands in life. --are you "high up" --or "down low" ?

Very nice. I like your statement very much.

 

[ScubaFinder]

That might be your most insightful post yet Ivan, thanks!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Buenas dias Alexandre, mi compadre: first, "Lupita dos cafe en al patio por favor".

For some reason I can't get it out of my head that there is no-way that an infinite no. of Archaeologists can begin to excavate, or examine intimately, the existing Maritime / land sites presently known alone, before all evidence returns to nature. Evidence which is building up daily in the form of our living today, which will be tomorrow's archaeological data?

Also, just how many identical ships from the same period are necessary to study that period of ship construction. I believe that most ships of the Spanish Col period have fairly complete documentation in the Royal files of their intimate construction, lading, plus land shipping data, which far exceeds what any ship may deliver from that period.

I am curious, just what have the Maritime Archaeologists uncovered on ship construction, cargos, ship's cargo, storage, etc., that hasn't already been provided by existing land data, and vast duplications in the various museums?

Still a bit confused, duh, but as far as I can see, a few sackfuls of coins, say from the Odessy saga, or from any salvage operation, fulfills every museum's needs. In fact, since all coinage is known, what is addded to the science world by complete confiscation

Sigh, while I love Archaeology, I can not see why there isn't room for both avocations, unless it for eliminating competitive activities.

I have found the legendary Jesuit mine of Tayopa. I have purposefully left it closed until I have official documentation covering my right to benefit from it to partially cover my time, expenses, and lost opportunities in unlocking the secret and finding it and the actual entrance.

I will happily stand by and watch a qualified, legal Archaeologist open this Patrimony of Mexico, 'if' my interests are honored also, if not, --- ?

Incidentally, this is the proverbial tip of the iceberg in what I have discovered of Spain and Mexico's past. I can easily keep 100 Archaeological teams busy for years.

It will remain so, until I am protected, even though it is an Archaeologist's dream. Am I wrong in my thinking ?

Don Jose de La Mancha