Question on the pamplet time line and Human nature

audigger53 · Dec 4, 2017

Why would someone hand the box to someone in 1862? The war was going on full time then.
Conjecture: "Wow I have been trying to work on this for 20 years or more and now I'll just give it to someone else? Not to family members but to some one that I might know as a friend? Just doesn't jive to me. But when excited by the story, I passed over that minor thing. How well did "Mr.Morris" know Mr. Ward?
"Hi, I don't know you that well but this has been in my keeping for a long time and I want to give it to you?"
Would you give a stranger to you something like this? A treasure buried and hidden somewhere. I'm not sure that human nature would do that.
There has to be a different reason for this. I have no idea what, but this part nags at me when looked at closely. Any ideas, comments on this part of it?

ECS · Dec 4, 2017

Morriss gave the story, letters, ciphers, and iron box to the unnamed "unknown author", who after 20+ years contacts James Beverly Ward to act as his "agent" and publish the "unknown authors" Beale Papers manuscript of "authentic statements".
Morriss's wife, Sarah Mitchell Morris, was Ward's wife, Harriet's, aunt, which is one of many connections to Ward's extended family alluded or referenced in the job print pamphlet story.

franklin · Dec 4, 2017

audigger53 said:
Why would someone hand the box to someone in 1862? The war was going on full time then.
Conjecture: "Wow I have been trying to work on this for 20 years or more and now I'll just give it to someone else? Not to family members but to some one that I might know as a friend? Just doesn't jive to me. But when excited by the story, I passed over that minor thing. How well did "Mr.Morris" know Mr. Ward?
"Hi, I don't know you that well but this has been in my keeping for a long time and I want to give it to you?"
Would you give a stranger to you something like this? A treasure buried and hidden somewhere. I'm not sure that human nature would do that.
There has to be a different reason for this. I have no idea what, but this part nags at me when looked at closely. Any ideas, comments on this part of it?

audigger53, I can name only a handful of people that would have come to see Robert Morriss while he stayed at Anzoletta Saunder's home. Six of these were Doctors. There were a few friends and relatives that lived within five miles. You must remember where Robert Morriss stayed and invited this guest to his room was over one mile off of the road and three miles or more from the Main Roads. I can not see that many people coming to see him while he was sick. Also Robert Morriss gave his furniture and house keeping items to another one of his nieces in 1856 giving up keeping a home. He most likely moved in with Anzoletta and family at that time. But without documents, letters or something we do not know exactly what date he moved in, we only know when he died and where as it was in his obituary. I have letters from "Roslin" where he stayed. I also have a letter from Hunter's Hill but none of these mention Robert Morriss? Kind of strange. I also found a newspaper article dated in 1820 saying that Robert Morriss was not a resident of the State of Virginia in 1820. That was the year that TJB and party went back west after the first deposit of treasure. Did Robert Morriss go with the Beale Party?

Benjamin Gates · Dec 4, 2017

audigger53 said:
Why would someone hand the box to someone in 1862? The war was going on full time then.
Conjecture: "Wow I have been trying to work on this for 20 years or more and now I'll just give it to someone else? Not to family members but to some one that I might know as a friend? Just doesn't jive to me. But when excited by the story, I passed over that minor thing. How well did "Mr.Morris" know Mr. Ward?
"Hi, I don't know you that well but this has been in my keeping for a long time and I want to give it to you?"
Would you give a stranger to you something like this? A treasure buried and hidden somewhere. I'm not sure that human nature would do that.
There has to be a different reason for this. I have no idea what, but this part nags at me when looked at closely. Any ideas, comments on this part of it?

Human nature to a complete stranger is more likely to be NO. Someone I might know as a friend, suggests a stranger but not a complete stranger. To me this suggests
a common denominator or link between "someone I might know as a friend" being recognized as another "member". That being a member of a secret society, fraternal order, masonic, etc. etc.

audigger53 · Dec 4, 2017

franklin said:
audigger53, I can name only a handful of people that would have come to see Robert Morriss while he stayed at Anzoletta Saunder's home. Six of these were Doctors. There were a few friends and relatives that lived within five miles. You must remember where Robert Morriss stayed and invited this guest to his room was over one mile off of the road and three miles or more from the Main Roads. I can not see that many people coming to see him while he was sick. Also Robert Morriss gave his furniture and house keeping items to another one of his nieces in 1856 giving up keeping a home. He most likely moved in with Anzoletta and family at that time. But without documents, letters or something we do not know exactly what date he moved in, we only know when he died and where as it was in his obituary. I have letters from "Roslin" where he stayed. I also have a letter from Hutter's Hill but none of these mention Robert Morriss? Kind of strange. I also found a newspaper article dated in 1820 saying that Robert Morriss was not a resident of the State of Virginia in 1820. That was the year that TJB and party went back west after the first deposit of treasure. Did Robert Morriss go with the Beale Party?View attachment 1522895

On that could Sandler or Lee have been the "stranger" that gave the stuff to Morris? Could they have been part of the "party" and then gave the box and letters to Morris? I have no idea just looking for common friends of Morris IF he is really the source of the Beale story to Ward. Any ideas on this train of thought?

franklin · Dec 4, 2017

audigger53 said:
On that could Sandler or Lee have been the "stranger" that gave the stuff to Morris? Could they have been part of the "party" and then gave the box and letters to Morris? I have no idea just looking for common friends of Morris IF he is really the source of the Beale story to Ward. Any ideas on this train of thought?

I have no idea who these two gentlmen are? I am not even sure this is the same Robert Morriss as I know of three by the same name at the same time, one in Bedford County and two in the Lynchburg Area.

That man's name was Sadler. I think the other was a misprint?

I have come up with the names of four men and either one of them could have been the author of the Job Print Pamphlet. But only one has the qualifications, opportunity and was with Robert Morriss when he was sick and he had a good reason to go to Richmond at about that time in 1861 or 1862?

audigger53 · Dec 4, 2017

Thanks. I was just thinking of starting backwards on the "Stranger" aspect. Everyone goes looking for Beale and not the stranger that gave it to Morris. After all what's in a name in a story? Names that you have heard of before used for the story without really being real persons in the story. Keeps you from lawsuits and throws everyone off on a tangent. IMO

Rebel - KGC · Dec 4, 2017

Well, "Friends" COULD be QUAKERS... Lynchburg, Va. was "FOUNDED" by QUAKERS! Aka SOCIETY OF FRIENDS... heh. I & Thee, Thou...

ECS · Dec 4, 2017

franklin said:
... I also found a newspaper article dated in 1820 saying that Robert Morriss was not a resident of the State of Virginia in 1820. That was the year that TJB and party went back west after the first deposit of treasure...
View attachment 1522895

It is curious, if this is indeed the Robert Morriss of the Beale Papers story, that in 1820 was NOT a resident of Virginia, having been the Mayor of Lynchburg in 1813 and "keeping the Washington Hotel during Beale & Co earlier visit.

Rebel - KGC · Dec 5, 2017

Robert MORRIS was Mayor of Lynchburg, Va, in 1813; he & wife had only the Washington House/Inn (in their big old house at the "head" of Main street) when TJB was there. Washington Hotel wasn't built until 1823... FACTS!

ECS · Dec 5, 2017

...and that difference in dates is another purposeful discrepancies that are placed throughout the Beale Papers that would have been noticed by the 1885 Lynchburg public for which the job print pamphlet was directed.

franklin · Dec 5, 2017

ECS said:
...and that difference in dates is another purposeful discrepancies that are placed throughout the Beale Papers that would have been noticed by the 1885 Lynchburg public for which the job print pamphlet was directed.

I see no discrepancy myself. Robert Morriss and Sarah sold their home at the head of Main Street in 1818. I have a ten year contract where Robert Morriss had to pay over $2,650 a year from 1818 to 1828. The Washington Inn or Washington House was described in 1819 when they gave the street layout of the debtor's prison in Lynchburg. Even before 1818, the property was referred to in Deeds and records. Other Deeds would mention the Washington House as directions for their property's survey. The Washington House was not named for General George Washington. There was a property owner that purchased one of the early properties of Lynchburg by the name of Washington. Later a sign was put up above the street bearing an image of George Washington simply because it was called the Washington House.

bigscoop · Dec 10, 2017

Let's face it, accept it, once we really start researching the text the narration is full of author presented discrepancies, inaccuracies, and contrary detail that brings the entire narration under extremely strong suspicion of fabrication and falsehood. What remains is extremely thin in nature with far too many complete unknowns hanging in the balance. The story is fun to entertain, but as for any true progress ever being made, well, it's pretty much been left to, "take your best and wildest guesses." :icon_thumleft:

bigscoop · Dec 10, 2017

And speaking of human nature, here we have an alleged leader in possession of a huge and all-important treasure that he is going to escort halfway across the country only to hide it in a cave that is well known and routinely visited by many in the region? :laughing7:

On the other hand, "caves" have been a big part of treasure related lore and legend since the beginning of treasure tales, so why not play to that reference. In either case, if this alleged cave was the best they could come up with before departing with their huge treasure in route to hiding it then these men were anything but brilliant. :icon_thumright:

ECS · Dec 10, 2017

bigscoop said:
Let's face it, accept it, once we really start researching the text the narration is full of author presented discrepancies, inaccuracies, and contrary detail that brings the entire narration under extremely strong suspicion of fabrication and falsehood. What remains is extremely thin in nature with far too many complete unknowns hanging in the balance. The story is fun to entertain, but as for any true progress ever being made, well, it's pretty much been left to, "take your best and wildest guesses."

What no one takes into consideration is that the BEALE PAPERS were written for the 1885 buying public of Lynchburg, Virginia, who would have noted the purposeful discrepancies, inaccuracies and contrary detail that were placed in the job print pamphlet as plausible facts.
That 1885 Lynchburg audience would also have understood the true intent of John William Sherman's tongue in cheek book review "grab a shovel" sales pitch that appeared in the LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN.
Does anyone really believe that the people of 1885 Lynchburg analyzed all the "not quite right" information attempting to make possible "connexions" to actual historical events, people and locations as has become the norm on these threads?
...or did the folks on 1885 Lynchburg take the job print pamphlet for what is was, which can be reflected in the original sale price of 50cents being radically dropped to 10cents a few months later after being placed on sale?

Benjamin Gates · Dec 10, 2017

The original sale price of 50cents sounds as if "they" tried to market their price accordingly and expected to make a fortune
off the BEALE PAPERS sale. The dropped price of 10cents months later suggests nobody was buying because it was to expensive
or nobody was buying the story to begin with. I don't know what the statistics, of the population of Lynchburg, was literate or
illiterate back then. Maybe nobody was buying because the majority could not read or write? Don't know.

ECS · Dec 10, 2017

Well B Gates, this is the next question:
If George Hart did not contact Pauline Innis with his HART PAPERS story, please bear in mind the foremost codebreakers of the time had declared the ciphers a hoax, would we still be discussing the Beale Papers, or would thread even exist?

PS, the people of 1885 Lynchburg were very literate, not the Yankee stereotype of the South you seem to have presented.