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HI: Frankly I have no idea if he actually was playing from the start or had simply decided that this was the easier, more dignified, way out. Frankly it makes no difference to me since I have never looked for the LDM, nor do I intend to.

But, I will say this, his type of posts and various reactions lead me to believe that he was in earnest at times and did think that he was correct, that it was not simply a trick/game as such, basic psychology shows this. I agree that a schizophrenic personality caused by extended drug usage could explain much, however there are still many questions which cannot be easily answered by simply saying that it was a game from the start, especially with the answers that I received from a few pm's.?

What was important in the whole episode was that this is typical of almost all lost mine and cache stories. One has to be careful to not discount even the most outlandish data until a clearer picture has been put together, then, and only then, can one finally toss out the tons of accumulated useless data. I certainly do not have to say that the LDM is LOADED.

Remember that all of the information so far presented on the LDM in posts, forums, books, articles, etc., has been acted upon by many people using normal logic with zero known results. So if it exists, normal logic itself must be partially discarded.

I had to discount perhaps 90 % of the data which was supposed to lead to TAYOPA and concentrate upon what was to be found at the site instead. Then, after finally finding it, backtrack. At this point it became very clear that surprisingly enough, most of the data,. while very disjointed, did make sense after all.

As for the BB, if you will reread my posts, you will see that I had never accepted his data , but did push the idea that he had a perfect right to say what his theories were, right or wrong, without ridicule -- so far he has done as good as "anyone" in here, or else where, in finding the LDM.

He is not the first, nor will he be the last, to try to put disassociated data into what appears to him to be a logical sequence, but I maintain that this is his right to do so without useless personal / character assasination.

I DO NOT agree with his statement that it was a joke, this is damaging to TN and the many readers, it can cause disillusionment and actually cause some to leave the world of treasure hunting, this is wrong.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Jose,

"One has to be careful to not discount even the most outlandish data..."

I believe we can safely "discount" the 18 gallons of nitroglycerin carried deep into the Superstitions by Jesuits. ::)

"Remember that all of the information so far presented on the LDM in posts, forums, books, articles, etc., has been acted upon by many people using normal logic with zero known results."

I assume there was a period of time after you found Tayopa that the above statement, switching Tayopa for LDM, would have applied to your own find. In your case, it could be made public. That would not hold true for the LDM. In this case, it has less to do with what you know as opposed to who you know.

Joe
 

Okay this thread is really different. Seeing how I am a newbie can someone explain what the Don's Club is?


Thanks

Dennis
 

Real de Tayopa said:
... Remember that all of the information so far presented on the LDM in posts, forums, books, articles, etc., has been acted upon by many people using normal logic with zero known results. So if it exists, normal logic itself must be partially discarded...

Don Jose de La Mancha

Well stated, DJdLM. And it's the same with all the other well-known 'lost mine' legends. This entire realm is about disinformation boys. The task at hand is not wasting years following the false leads available in the public domain, but trying to read between the lines and ferreting out the true source of the rumors. Humans are soooo easy to lead astray - look at religion, politics and consumerism for starts. The folks who distorted the true story behind the LDM (whatever that may be) were shooting fish in a barrel.
 

Bowman and Springfield,

For those who have spent decades researching the legends that surround the Superstition Mountains, there is a bit more than myth. That is not to say there is not a great deal of "disinformation".....because there is.

Some of that "disinformation" is purposeful and some, like Bowman's story, produced by ignorance of the overall body of evidence. Man reads one or two books on the subject and knows it all. ::)

My own treasure has been the rewards received by 48 years of participation in a passionate hobby. It has never interfered with my life.....just added to it.

The Superstitions are not kind to those with weak minds. For those people, like Bowman, it's best to avoid anything more than day hikes. The mountains have a way of making the weak weaker and the strong stronger. The Native Americans knew how to harvest that power. They did it by keeping very close to the earth......"Feet never leave the ground".

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
 

BB Some day when you have nothing else to do, research the data on The Tayopa. You want to talk about disassociated data and wild speculation -- sigh. this can lead you into a wild chase covering some 20,000 sq miles.

I can put you on my claim of 2300 acres and still defy you to find either it, or any of the other 18 mines that surround it. Who knows how many other seekers in the past may have arrived at Tayopa but failed to realize that they were standing on it.

The same may apply to the lDM, I personally have no ideas formed as to its reality. All that I can say is there is speculative and physical data which could allow it to exist.

As for Tayopa, even today after finding it, most deny it's physical existence and believe that it is nothing but a lovely legend, nothing more.

The Jesuits are still denying any mining, in spite of physical proof, this doesn't help either.

I have been exposed to many legends more impossible than the LDM, and have even seen some of them come true..

I have no intention of ever looking for the LDM, not because of it being a silly story, but because I am on the track of the Jesuit involvement in mining and political intrigue in the Americas. I will have enough $ from the Tayopa complex to play with the campaign. This may take a few years to finish..

SO BB, I still have an open mind on the LDM.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

HI BB, Where is the alter bell which started me to look for the TAYOPA in earnest? It existed but since has disappeared into the Eng's family in the LA area.

I have never seen the ore either, but many claim to have? It was a distinctive type of ore which none of the known mines were producing ?

Shucks, now you have me defending something in which I have no vested or personal intrest let alone knowledge, other than it is a nice story worth investigating..

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

BB.:
I feel sorry for you,I really do.I guess everyone has to make a living somehow,but at only a hundred bucks per bet it seems like a lot of work,even if you do enjoy the game.I actually enjoyed reading your posts and I wish that you had not deleted them,even though they had as much credibility as your explanation today.
SH.
 

RE:
the White Bird story---lots more here--http://www.earlyaviators.com/enungess.htm
SH.
 

BB: if the engine appeared to be long it may have been a straight 8-common in some of the old tractors used to pull logs and early skidders.This plane was described in Jane’s All The World’s Aircraft of 1927 (page 131b). It was equipped with a Lorraine-Dietrich 12 cylinder motor in W configuration of 450 horsepower.The W configuration allows 12 cylinders to be used in a shorter motor,about the size of a small V-8.A google search of the Volkswagon W12 will show a typical W-engine layout.
An interesting piece of history to search for,though,and if the motor is found,ID plates will leave no question about it's origin.Wish you luck.SH.
 

Joe: you stated,
"The Superstitions are not kind to those with weak minds. For those people, like Bowman, it's best to avoid anything more than day hikes. The mountains have a way of making the weak weaker and the strong stronger. The Native Americans knew how to harvest that power. They did it by keeping very close to the earth......"Feet never leave the ground".
Now that you mention it,I can't think of even a dance step by any of the many North American Tribes,where one foot,at least,was always in contact with the earth.Nothing like the Massai at any rate,
although there was once an Apache "renegade",never captured,named Massai.Trackers claimed that his feet never touched the ground when he knew that Apache Scouts,his own people,were trying to take his life or his head.
SH.
 

SH,

You are correct about Native American dances. In the song, the line goes: "Dancing on Mother Earth....Feet never leave the ground". My thanks to my good friend, Grayhair.

I can guarantee you that Massai always took the time to lay on the ground and soak up the power. Can't imagine it any other way. "Massai manifested himself like the dust-storm or the morning mist--a shiver in the air, and gone." (Frederic Remington)

To clarify one point.....Massai's tracks were many. He was followed for many miles on a number of occasions. The one thing he always left.....were thousands of tracks. Many times he would lead his horse back and forth over the same area, just to drive the trackers crazy. If you were tracking him, ending up where you began was a common occurrence.

Take care,

Joe
 

Randy,

"No-one knows if Bill (blindbowman) filed a treasure trove permit or not. Did Scott post anything about it? I don't recall."

I have it, from a very good source, that bowman never filed for a treasure trove permit.

Game from start to finish.

Have to admit it was fun reading and replying to his.....stuff. :) Maybe he will show up at the Dutch Hunters' Rendezvous. Can't help but think that he learned a great deal about the LDM legend while playing here.

I hope he shook the drug thing, but some of his posts make me doubt it. Life is good for those who actually live it.

We will be making an ATV trip to Utah towards the end of June. When we git back a visit to the Bradshaws will be in the works. You still up for it?

Take care,

Joe
 

"Can't help but think that he learned a great deal about the LDM legend while playing here."

With a little more research and effort (considering how much he and his group had already put into it), he would probably have just as good a chance as everybody else at finding the LDM if he went out there and searched... ;)

Still, I agree, it made for fun reading.
 

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