Real Cobs Declared Fake

[ivan salis]

oh its shear laziness on the coin dealers part -- once he sees its "cleaned" to him its junk and he treats it and who ever brought it in to him that way and since whoever brought it in is too dumb to know not to bring in a "cleaned" coin to a coin dealer and thus "waste" his time --he tells them "fake" to get rid of them as quickly as he can (explaining why you don't clean coins to a foolish customer takes time and is often difficult) that way he can stop spending time wuth what he views as a "non paying dumb customer" so they can get to the next customer who actually wants to buy or sell a coin (which is how he makes a living).---- yes I agree the coin is not a "fake" as in counterfiet coin but sadly as far as coin dealers go --it might as well be one. thats just the way they roll and the way it is. -- knowledgible coin collector folks will tell you do not clean or clean only enought to id it and then be very very careful while doing it --and never ever clean to "shiney" unless you want a "jewelry piece" ruined as far as a collector coin value goes. -- Ivan

 

[Zephyr]

But what is in fact happening is these dealers are purposely making people think they were cheated. Some simply tell the person their coin is modern made and fake. Now that is a baldfaced lie and that's my point.

And then they'll offer to buy it from you for a pittance. If any dealer (coin, antique, etc) offers to buy something from you on the spot, don't sell. Go check out the value on your own. You'd be surprised at how much they tried to lowball you.

 

[SamsSon]

oh its shear laziness on the coin dealers part -- once he sees its "cleaned" to him its junk and he treats it and who ever brought it in to him that way and since whoever brought it in is too dumb to know not to bring in a "cleaned" coin to a coin dealer and thus "waste" his time --he tells them "fake" to get rid of them as quickly as he can (explaining why you don't clean coins to a [prohibited word deleted - violation of terms of use - attempts to circumvent this word filter may result in member banning] takes time and is often difficult) that way he can stop spending time wuth what he views as a "non paying "[prohibited word deleted - violation of terms of use - attempts to circumvent this word filter may result in member banning]" customer" so they can get to the next customer who actually wants to buy or sell a coin (which is how he makes a living).---- yes I agree the coin is not a "fake" as in counterfiet coin but sadly as far as coin dealers go --it might as well be one. thats just the way they roll and the way it is. -- knowledgible coin collector folks will tell you do not clean or clean only enought to id it and then be very very careful while doing it --and never ever clean to "shiney" unless you want a "jewelry piece" ruined as far as a collector coin value goes. -- Ivan

Yes I see what you're saying.

But, these dealers are assuming that what WAS the opinion of the majority...always IS the opinion of the majority.

There was a time when coin cleaning was totally out. Then people got interested in ancient coins. Almost all ancients require some cleaning.

Next came the modern trend toward coin jewelry. People today generally don't like FAKE coins in jewelry but REAL coins.

So, the thinking has in a very real sense changed for many modern day investors. And who is to say people can't change if they want to?

See this whole deal about not cleaning coins is goofy anyway. How many old coins have spent their lives with zero cleaning in one way or another? Be it going through river water while someone waded a stream--in the pants when ma did the laundry--picking up sweat in "hot pants" or the abrasive action of rattling around inside a leather purse--all coin have to some extent experienced cleanings or some sort of abrasive action.

And too, this patina thing. What is patina but corroded and corrupted surface metal and dirt? Many ancient coins spent 100s of years in cow pastures getting impacted poop on them.

So today thousands have decided the old way sucks and they want nice looking shiny coins. Are they to be mislead by dealers who try to make them think their coins are modern made fakes and not old coins simply because the dealer doesn't like coins without poop?

This whole thing is really crystal clear and we have outright fraud going on by these crooked and/or lazy dealers.

 

[Nana40]

I had a dear friend gift me with a beautifully cleaned vellon cob, that I wouldn't take a million for.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I was told by a coin deler that my cob was a cast silver fake back in the 80's. The dealer didnt even want to buy it. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,48541.0.html Good for me bacause I would have sold it. I kept it in my junk box all these years and had it IDed at TN as reale. If you want your cob IDed post it here!

 

[BestAntiquities]

This is a great thread! Many many coins and cobs are declared fake when they're really genuine. I collect coins and cobs from all eras and I learned a long time ago to have coins attributed only by those who know what they're talking about and who have no hidden bias. Many little dealers and some big coin atributation businesses are purposely giving people false information because (like stated here) they have lost soooo much business to ebay.
Here's a trick, the next time some dealer tells you your cob or coin is fake, ask him to put that in writting. Don't be surprised when he declines the offer They know very well that if they sign they can be taken to court and sued for a ton of money. They know most (not all) the coins presented to them are most likely genuine. Their whole motive is (like stated here) GREED.
Probably 90% of my collection (worth $$$$$$) would be classified fake by 98% of the atributation centers in this country and in Austrialia. Take my coins and cobs to Spain and have a REAL expert look them over and guess what? GENUINE!
And too it's a well know fact that many coins and cobs found at shipwreck sites and beach finds are heavily cleaned and some can look shiny and fake to the eye. These must be looked at under magnification by a true expert and also examined in other ways. Probably not 1 in 1,000 cobs today is a fake and a real expert can spot these pretty fast. And as for copper cobs I seriously doubt any of those are fakes. Like mentioned here there are too many real ones out there to even bother. Most of this extreme hype today over fakes was started about 10 years ago by the big ancient coin dealers on the Internet. Some have direct ties to the Balkins and other illegal dig locations and they were losing their shirts to all these little coin cleaning people selling their cleaned ancient coins on ebay. This had to be stopped. I personally think they're the real villains behind most of the fake coins. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if they paid to have them made and planted. This would drive the coin investors to them to pay their ridiculous prices for "attributed" ancient and modern coins. This whole thing has spread throughtout the coin collecting community.


VERY excellent thread!!!! A+++++++++++++++

 

[karib2517]

well if i ever find a real,iam not cleaning it maybe the crud is worth more than the coin.

 

[Michigan Badger]

well if i ever find a real,iam not cleaning it maybe the crud is worth more than the coin.

Yes, cow manure runs about $50 a ton but pack a gram on a coin and it's worth hundreds

 

[Captn SE]

Speaking of patina, I thought pure gold is not supposed to tarnish, thus no patina should be on a gold coin except for some unexpected/natural foreign matter that was laying next to it for many years, such as a rusty nail, etc. Dirt, I can see being on any dug coin, but patina on pure gold, I'm not so sure about.

Here's something to add to counterfeiting and the idea of a fake coin. Take a look at some of the counterfeit factories found in China.

Chinese counterfeit factory
http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/Chinese-Fake-Coin-Minting.htm

In addition to striking fake coins, they manufacture a variety of fake Chinese antique art and antiquities items. So they even know how to make something look old to increase its value.
Very scary, yet very true.

Good thread!!

CAPTN SE
Dan

 

[Michigan Badger]

Boggie! Man, those boys got a reale business going there

I know it is really scary!

I've heard their stuff can be ID easily but lots of people will no doubt get sucked in.

Whenever I buy 16th-17th century cobs to keep or sell I buy them uncleaned or from people who clean them for me.

Most coins out there are genuine but as time passes more and more fakes will flood the market. This will simply mean more sophisticated testings and better trained "experts."

Right now things are way too sloppy. We're got all these coin dealers and attribution houses manned by persons who know less than we do about coins. That's why these cons are having such success.

In the end these guys are doing us a favor because this will force stricter guidelines and training.

 

[Salvor6]

I'm with SamsSon. I like clean shiny coins. To me they look pretty. Look at the coins below. This is what Ivan would call "pretty."

 

[rgecy]

Maybe before and after picts would help. This is basically documenting the find and showing the begining and end result.

Here is a picture of one of the above coins after it was cleaned. Not the prettiest coin, but the before and after picts certainly help to prove the validity and would be nice for your buyers to see as well. By the way, this was the very first cob I ever found!

Its in the top right if you are looking. It was hard to tell at first it was even a coin in its uncleaned condition. But the details popped after cleaning.

Robert

 

[ivan salis]

I call the crusty ones easiler to sale as legit underwater shipwreck finds --the clean ones while nice looking unless they have a valid COA -- will be near worthless almost melt value in many cases sadly -- for my own amuzement and not for resale clean em -- for resale never clean em unless its done professionally and by someone who can do a valid COA for it . too many bogus "copy" coins out there.

 

[Michigan Badger]

Maybe before and after picts would help. This is basically documenting the find and showing the begining and end result.

Here is a picture of one of the above coins after it was cleaned. Not the prettiest coin, but the before and after picts certainly help to prove the validity and would be nice for your buyers to see as well. By the way, this was the very first cob I ever found!

Its in the top right if you are looking. It was hard to tell at first it was even a coin in its uncleaned condition. But the details popped after cleaning.

Robert

You're right Robert and this is exactly what I do. I've sold lots of shipwreck cobs in the past from some the most famous wrecks and only had a couple people want their money back. In each case it was when I didn't give them before and after pictures.

I asked them to send me signed documentation from the dealer who told them they were fakes and neither of the two did. In fact, one buyer gave me a tremendous positive feedback on ebay after I refunded their money! He called me a very good honest dealer!

I think both these two people seeking refunds for "fake" cobs realized the cobs were genuine but just wanted their money back for various other reasons.

If I were to sell cobs today I'd always offer before and after pictures.

But the best is to have the cob checked prior to cleaning by some "expert." There are many such "experts" out there. Basically all they do is what we do, weigh the cob (all weigh different amounts due to underwater wear), check details, and look at the corrosion. The response is "yep! genuine." Then pay the guy $100 for his 5 minutes work.

Some part time moonlighters will give out these COA's for as little as $25 but you have to print the document on your own inkjet

I've seen some Chinese fakes and to the eye they look of the gumball machine.

And too back in the 1600's China was still faking blue & white porcelain so you don't have to worry about fakes at wreck sites

A fun thing to do is take a COA backed genuine Spanish cob out of it's container and present it to your local coin "expert." Then try your best not to laugh when it proclaims "obvious fake!" This almost always works with the Atocha cobs due to their polished cleaning.

Great post!

 

[ivan salis]

all I'm trying to get across is that unless you can PROVE via a COA or thru some other form of "proof" that the coin came from a ship wreck site -- if its a "bright and shiney" ie cleaned coin -- chances are good to excellant most hobby type mom and pop coin dealers will say "fake" even if they are 100% real. due to what they veiw as condition issues --ie its been cleaned ---so its "ruined" or bogus in their veiw --- thus they don't want to deal with it -- folks come in asking is this real? thus taking up their time and making them no money --so they brush them off with a quick look -- yep cleaned coin --"fake" they say (since they have no interest in buying a "cleaned" coin (unless its got a COA of course)-- that way they get rid of the no money "pest" and can go on to the next guy in line who wants to buy or sell a coin-- thus making $$$ and making $$$ is the name of the game.---not doing free coin inspections of cleaned coins that they have no interest in buying for resale.--- sad but true --some after dissing the one they brought in -- might even offer to sell them "a real one" from their stock-- Ivan

dealing with coin brokers is often like dealing with used car salemen but worse since theres no known mileage meter on a coin --- are you buying if so they soft grade the coins they got for sale -- grading upward "puffing everything up" or are you selling (then they grade downward or hard grade it ) they drag out every flaw and blemish and offer rock bottom prices for your stuff . par for the course --its their biz.

 

[Trez]

The cob that is in the top right....
IMO, should have been left in it's origional found condition, it appears to be attached to a calcareous cocoon from sitting on the ocean bottom which makes for a very nice display...VERY APPEALING when found this way, now cleaned it loses all it's uniqueness. Chunk into the pile with all the others. LOL
It was a great find.....but as soon as this one hit the cleaner it became just another piece of eight...as it pertains to numismatic's.

The picture of it laying on the bottom is an absolutely perfect specimen in it's natural state. There is a way to clean that type of example w/o destroying the uniqueness.
I wish you would have kept it that way, but...I do understand it being your first cob.

But, for the one who found it...it is worth more than we can imagine.

Nice find,
Trez

 

[Michigan Badger]

The cob that is in the top right....
IMO, should have been left in it's origional found condition, it appears to be attached to a calcareous cocoon from sitting on the ocean bottom which makes for a very nice display...VERY APPEALING when found this way, now cleaned it loses all it's uniqueness. Chunk into the pile with all the others. LOL
It was a great find.....but as soon as this one hit the cleaner it became just another piece of eight...as it pertains to numismatic's.
But, for the one who found it...it is worth more than we can imagine.

Nice find,
Trez

Yes, I agree 100% with this post.

I once had a couple of those 8 cobs found on the Vero beach and I cleaned them. I always regretted that

 

[ivan salis]

I like the rectangle shaped one and the holed one * myself --- Ivan

 

[rgecy]

IMO, should have been left in it's origional found condition, it appears to be attached to a calcareous cocoon from sitting on the ocean bottom which makes for a very nice display...VERY APPEALING when found this way, now cleaned it loses all it's uniqueness. Chunk into the pile with all the others. LOL
It was a great find.....but as soon as this one hit the cleaner it became just another piece of eight...as it pertains to numismatic's.

The picture of it laying on the bottom is an absolutely perfect specimen in it's natural state. There is a way to clean that type of example w/o destroying the uniqueness.
I wish you would have kept it that way, but...I do understand it being your first cob.

But, for the one who found it...it is worth more than we can imagine.

Nice find,
Trez

Trez,

It was attached to a slab of beach rock that probably weighed a few tons! It had been next to something iron and the corrosion helped to concrete it to the beach rock and I had to pop it loose with a small chisel.

Robert