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Replica of Drakes discovery plate in California
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cornelis 816
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Don Jose. Is this a repicla from the replica ? Did Drake realy visit the Estuary or was only Cermeno and the San Augustin there . I visited the place many times since the San Augustin is pinpointed on the map . I was there ahead of Bob Marx . Bob said he discovered the San Augustin . This is a bit of BS . He never got permission from Sylvia Earl to dive on the site . Anyhow it is a long story out of my younger years . Cornelius
Don Jose. Is this a repicla from the replica ? Did Drake realy visit the Estuary or was only Cermeno and the San Augustin there . I visited the place many times since the San Augustin is pinpointed on the map . I was there ahead of Bob Marx . Bob said he discovered the San Augustin . This is a bit of BS . He never got permission from Sylvia Earl to dive on the site . Anyhow it is a long story out of my younger years . Cornelius
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Cornelis,
You may be interested in this article:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...lshAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AIgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3955,5244927
I was a partner in Bob's "Phoenician" partnership on the 'San Augustine' (and other) projects. My recollection is (from meetings attended on this issue) that Marx's permit was eventually denied by the State Lands Commission or other government agencies, not a specific individual. Marx did hand me an "X" marks the spot where he thought the wreck was located, though the opportunity to 'work' that site was never approved by the authorities.
Don.......
Cornelis,
You may be interested in this article:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...lshAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AIgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3955,5244927
I was a partner in Bob's "Phoenician" partnership on the 'San Augustine' (and other) projects. My recollection is (from meetings attended on this issue) that Marx's permit was eventually denied by the State Lands Commission or other government agencies, not a specific individual. Marx did hand me an "X" marks the spot where he thought the wreck was located, though the opportunity to 'work' that site was never approved by the authorities.
Don.......
cornelis 816
Sr. Member
Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Don . The x on the map was to the left of the outflow of the estuary . Since the time of sinking a lot has changed on the coast line . So the wreck was more to seaward of the X if you take the coast line in consideration. The wreck , or what is left of it is in very shallow water now and most likely completely covered . The finds on the high dunes of point Reyes prove that the indians ( quite familiar with the ocean ) have salvaged most of the materials that were in sight when the san Augustin was wrecked . The rods that were holding the planking together were all salvaged , plus a lot of Delftware or chinese pottery fragments were also fiund in the garbage pits on top of the bluffs . There is nothing there any more if you ask me . The person I asked for a permit was Sylvia Earl . She was the person that set the rules at that time . Cornelius ( ps the Nehalem wreck is more interesting to me )
Don . The x on the map was to the left of the outflow of the estuary . Since the time of sinking a lot has changed on the coast line . So the wreck was more to seaward of the X if you take the coast line in consideration. The wreck , or what is left of it is in very shallow water now and most likely completely covered . The finds on the high dunes of point Reyes prove that the indians ( quite familiar with the ocean ) have salvaged most of the materials that were in sight when the san Augustin was wrecked . The rods that were holding the planking together were all salvaged , plus a lot of Delftware or chinese pottery fragments were also fiund in the garbage pits on top of the bluffs . There is nothing there any more if you ask me . The person I asked for a permit was Sylvia Earl . She was the person that set the rules at that time . Cornelius ( ps the Nehalem wreck is more interesting to me )
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Cornelis,
Very interesting. Either just before or just after Bob's experience with Drake's Bay, he moved his efforts to the Nehalem area where, after examination, he told me he thought that wreck (or cargo) was most likely now under a parking lot.
Don.......
Cornelis,
Very interesting. Either just before or just after Bob's experience with Drake's Bay, he moved his efforts to the Nehalem area where, after examination, he told me he thought that wreck (or cargo) was most likely now under a parking lot.
Don.......
cornelis 816
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Don . With all repect to Bob , how did he come to that conclusion . It may heve been his opinion but certainly there was no proof of that ! . I have investigated the Nehalem wreck for quite some time ( although it was many years ago ) . I counted on the flow of the river , the currents and eddies . The wreck is there although not at the place where they found the wax bars . Cornelius
Don . With all repect to Bob , how did he come to that conclusion . It may heve been his opinion but certainly there was no proof of that ! . I have investigated the Nehalem wreck for quite some time ( although it was many years ago ) . I counted on the flow of the river , the currents and eddies . The wreck is there although not at the place where they found the wax bars . Cornelius
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Cornelis,
Forgive me, but that was 25 years ago and I only remember something about he finding pottery shards in dirt at the perimeter slope of a parking lot.
Don...
Cornelis,
Forgive me, but that was 25 years ago and I only remember something about he finding pottery shards in dirt at the perimeter slope of a parking lot.
Don...
cornelis 816
Sr. Member
Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Don . Roughly the same time I found two cannon West of Falcon rock . That made me think ! Was a ship wrecked there ? Could the light wax have floated down to the Nahelem beach area ? The wax and timbers may have been floating down into that area . . Do you have an idea ? Cornelius ( I think by now those two cannon have been salvaged by someone )
Don . Roughly the same time I found two cannon West of Falcon rock . That made me think ! Was a ship wrecked there ? Could the light wax have floated down to the Nahelem beach area ? The wax and timbers may have been floating down into that area . . Do you have an idea ? Cornelius ( I think by now those two cannon have been salvaged by someone )
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Cornelis,
Back to Drake's Bay........an online CV of Bob's (http://www.theamericasgroup.com/rsops/Personnel/bob_marx/robertmarxresume.htm)
reflects he did a visual and mag survey of the bay 'back in the day'.
What I have is an "X" chart drawn after that mag survey.
Don....
Cornelis,
Back to Drake's Bay........an online CV of Bob's (http://www.theamericasgroup.com/rsops/Personnel/bob_marx/robertmarxresume.htm)
reflects he did a visual and mag survey of the bay 'back in the day'.
What I have is an "X" chart drawn after that mag survey.
Don....
cornelis 816
Sr. Member
Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Don . Potato patch is just to the east of the area in question . There are many ships that sank in that area . A visual search would not have detected anything because there was nothing sticking out of the sand if you ask me . A mag search would probably have detected an anchor . But .... was this the very small anchor of the San Augustin . The San Augustin was a very small caravel . If there was ant reading on the mag search it was most likely from one of the other anchors in the same area . Rest me to say that I could not find anything in the area , And I was there quite a bit earlier that Bob . I lived in Yuba City that time and was constantly on the ocean . Cornelius
Don . Potato patch is just to the east of the area in question . There are many ships that sank in that area . A visual search would not have detected anything because there was nothing sticking out of the sand if you ask me . A mag search would probably have detected an anchor . But .... was this the very small anchor of the San Augustin . The San Augustin was a very small caravel . If there was ant reading on the mag search it was most likely from one of the other anchors in the same area . Rest me to say that I could not find anything in the area , And I was there quite a bit earlier that Bob . I lived in Yuba City that time and was constantly on the ocean . Cornelius
Lanny in AB
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Interesting thread.
All the best,
Lanny
Interesting thread.
All the best,
Lanny
cuzcosquirrel
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Was it on the left side looking northward at the estuary mouth, or on the left looking south from the beach out to sea?
Some of the stuff he says in that article seems incorrect from what I know of the wreck location, which was at the time I looked for it much more obvious than it was back then, or is now today.
There are several other pieces of submerged wreckage close to shore from other ships it could be confused with. There is a particularly large piece (a hull) from the late 1800's many people may have confused it with.
In 2008, when the sand was particularly low, you could go out at low tide and watch the waves at the estuary mouth crash over 8 to 10 large pieces of wooden wreckage sticking up from the mud in a 200 meter line going from the east to the west.
This map for instance, is incorrect.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/1997/09/26/MN66017.DTL
Was it on the left side looking northward at the estuary mouth, or on the left looking south from the beach out to sea?
Some of the stuff he says in that article seems incorrect from what I know of the wreck location, which was at the time I looked for it much more obvious than it was back then, or is now today.
There are several other pieces of submerged wreckage close to shore from other ships it could be confused with. There is a particularly large piece (a hull) from the late 1800's many people may have confused it with.
In 2008, when the sand was particularly low, you could go out at low tide and watch the waves at the estuary mouth crash over 8 to 10 large pieces of wooden wreckage sticking up from the mud in a 200 meter line going from the east to the west.
This map for instance, is incorrect.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/1997/09/26/MN66017.DTL
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Shortly after our "Phoenician" partnership was denied a permit, 'bureaucratic' divers were in the water.
My understanding is they found nothing of substance.
To my knowledge, our "X" was never disclosed to anyone outside our circle.
Who knows, maybe some day.............
Don....
Shortly after our "Phoenician" partnership was denied a permit, 'bureaucratic' divers were in the water.
My understanding is they found nothing of substance.
To my knowledge, our "X" was never disclosed to anyone outside our circle.
Who knows, maybe some day.............
Don....
cornelis 816
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Cornelis,
My "X" and your anchorage are in the same 'relative' area.
Don...............
Cornelis,
My "X" and your anchorage are in the same 'relative' area.
Don...............
cornelis 816
Sr. Member
Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Don , the anchorage on the 1603 map was put there after Viscaino saw the remains of the San Augustin in shallow waters . Cornelius
Don , the anchorage on the 1603 map was put there after Viscaino saw the remains of the San Augustin in shallow waters . Cornelius
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Cornelis,
Maybe based on today's shoreline, the marks overlap.
Don..
Cornelis,
Maybe based on today's shoreline, the marks overlap.
Don..
cuzcosquirrel
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Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
I tend to disagree, but even finding some stuff in the water is not the end all to the location of the wreck.
A re-reading of Treasures of the Armada may help in understanding the wreck type.
I tend to disagree, but even finding some stuff in the water is not the end all to the location of the wreck.
A re-reading of Treasures of the Armada may help in understanding the wreck type.
Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Cornelius,
I am over in Europe at the moment, so don't have access to my books and research material, but I am sure that Vizcaino did not see the wreck of Cermeno's ship. Bolton reproduced Vizcaino's diary and Wagner did the same for Father del'Ascension's account of the voyage, and I am pretty certain that neither mentions seing the wreck, though they do both discuss the wrecking of the San Agustin.
The notation on the Vizcaino map is just an indication of a suitable anchorage.
Mariner
Cornelius,
I am over in Europe at the moment, so don't have access to my books and research material, but I am sure that Vizcaino did not see the wreck of Cermeno's ship. Bolton reproduced Vizcaino's diary and Wagner did the same for Father del'Ascension's account of the voyage, and I am pretty certain that neither mentions seing the wreck, though they do both discuss the wrecking of the San Agustin.
The notation on the Vizcaino map is just an indication of a suitable anchorage.
Mariner
cornelis 816
Sr. Member
Re: Replica of Drake's discovery plate in California
Mariner . In the journal of Viscaino he mentions that he saw the remains of the San Augustin but decided not to dive on it since he was on a mission to find suitable ports on the coast for the Manila Galleons and did not want to spend more time . I have the complete series of maps that he drew while on this duty to the crown . Cornelius
Mariner . In the journal of Viscaino he mentions that he saw the remains of the San Augustin but decided not to dive on it since he was on a mission to find suitable ports on the coast for the Manila Galleons and did not want to spend more time . I have the complete series of maps that he drew while on this duty to the crown . Cornelius
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