Shipwreck in Delaware River, Pa. with cannons, Need Help

FinderKeeper

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Hi, We been contacted to help prove the age of a shipwreck with cannons in the Delaware River in Pa. This area is to be dredged in the spring of 2014 and we hope to save the site and stop the dredging until it is checked out. We plan to send some wood from the ship out to be carbon dated this week. If you are from this area and can offer help let us know.Thank You
 

Galleon Hunter

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Carbon Dating would probably be of no use whatsoever. You are likely to get a date of something like 1800 +/- 100 Years, which is helpful in trying to date something thousands of years old, but not much help when it comes to shipwreck since it would give you a window from 1700-1900. There are far better ways to date a shipwreck.
 

SteveS

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Apr 29, 2007
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I'd recommend sending the wood out to see what type it is. Knowing what type wood was used in the frames/planking, etc, can give you a good idea of where the ship was built which can narrow down an investigation, and if you can see any of the structure and note how she was built, that can also help to date it, as how ships were built varied over the years, especially when good hardwood lumber started to become scarce, different shipbuilding techniques were used. Lots of other ways to help date the ship. I'm in Florida, or I'd lend a hand. Good luck. You need any permits to work the site? Just asking as I don't know PA's rules for working on shipwrecks. If the area's going to be dredged, I'd think the State would be willing to work with someone. Sounds interesting-keep us informed.
 

AUVnav

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I am with Galleon on this, forget the wood, the window of aging techniques, and type of wood, are inconclusive. Save your money.

The cannon, the cannon, its all about the cannon!

IF there are cannon present, these can be the most definitive method of ID. There may be other similar heavy metal artifacts, such as the ships bell for ID.


You did not mention the general area of the Delawre, this is certainly an aide to ID..
 

surf

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Do'ya know McNally? Delaware River Shipwrecks | Sleuth says there is ship history in Delaware River - Baltimore Sun

oiled-diver1.jpg
 

Smithbrown

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If you want a dating technique, go for dendrochronology. The others are right about carbob-dating not being appropriate.
 

wwwtimmcp

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is the bowsprit intact ? if so look at how the gammoning attaches the keel to the bowsprit, if it has a saddle cut into the bowsprit it is from the 1700's, if there is a tennon with a board in front to keep the gammoning ropes from sliding it is early 1800's, if just the tennon then it is mid to late 1800's. the cannons should have some sort of markings on them that can help date the ship. the british built their ships different from us, the keel and keelson were notched to hold the ribs and they used tennons between the ribs on the planking edge to help absorb cannon fire, the keel should be made from elm if it is british, the british used a tool to keep the spikes from splitting while being hammered the head ends of the spikes should be in good condition. if it is an armed british ship that can help date the wreck. if it is American made we used more ribs but they were slightly smaller, the spikes will probably have splits on the heads(cracking) from being hit directly, we used iron for the lightning protection the british used copper, theirs will be plates nailed into the keel/keelson area by the mast step, ours were iron rods. if any china is on board that can help date the wreck. crock work too can help date the wreck, the type of cannon balls or ordinance can help date the wreck. glassware can help too. let us know what you see and maybe we can help.
 
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FinderKeeper

FinderKeeper

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Thank You all for the info. I have not been to the site yet. The finder said the ship is from the Templar period 1300's to 1400's. I am sure the carbon dating should prove this. The finder says he has the proof to prove the date but before I spend the money and go into that cold water I need the carbon date to show 1300's. By next week the dating should be done then I will post the results here. We got many offers to help save this ship from the dredging going on now. If the dating does come back 1300's then we will go to the site with divers and camers and what ever it takes to do the job. Until now we been working on land sites only but we have things in the works to start diving next year in Nova Scotia for under water mining.
 
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The finder said the ship is from the Templar period 1300's to 1400's.

Possibility,look up the Westford knight in Westford Massachusetts.Theres a Templar knight in full armor engraved in stone.The family crest on his shield is from the Gunn family,the sword he is holding is broken meaning he is dead.Good luck:icon_thumright:

Ps...A bronze shield was also found in the shallow waters off of Marshland Mass.in the 1950s
 
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FISHEYE

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Ships can be dated by the types of deadeyes used on them.I have a rare book that has listings of all types of deadeyes made from the 12th century on up.Deadeyes were made out of lignam vitae(iron wood)These would survive longer than any other ships timbers.
 

Army of 1

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I doubt the ship is from the 1300-1400's if it has cannon , i don't think any ship Templar or otherwise had cannons this early ? , but i could be wrong ..cheers Mick
 

littleneckhalfshell

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Mysteries of the Templars The following is from this site. It seems to suggest that cannon could be found on a ship of the time period in question and with a Templar connection.

"In 1391 a Venetian ship entered the Orkney earldom. Aboard was Nicolo Zeno, brother of Carlo Zeno [the "Lion" of Venice] who had pioneered the use of cannon for Venice at the Battle of Chioggia. After spending some time with Sinclair, Nicolo Zeno wrote home to Venice and instructed his brother, Antonio, to join him in the Orkneys. Nicolo and Antonio together supplied the expertise that Henry lacked. They knew how to forge the new lightweight cannon for shipboard use, and they were familiar with the latest navigational theories and cartographic skills. They stayed in the service of Sinclair until death."
- Michael Bradley, Holy Grail Across the Atlantic
 
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FinderKeeper

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Ya who knows for sure if they had cannons. Everything we been tought in the past is being proven to be wrong. So I will hold off on saying its a Templar Ship until I see the carbon dating. But if the date comes back 1300's then we will know if they did have them and the finder said it was big. There was a lot of Ships sunk in the same area. By Jan 20th we should know.
 
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AUVnav

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Submerged wood is very difficult to date correctly.

With carbon dating, you will get the age of the wood. Then go from there. If it says 1300-1500, then add 200+ for the tree growth, then add for the age of the ship.

Dont really understand why the Templars would make a voyage like that during that timeframe or otherwise. Varrazano made the voyage on the Daphne in 1524, and founded the first Templar villa in 1526, far from 1300's. There is no record of it wrecking on that voyage.

Makes for a good story though.
 

flyadive

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We are waiting on the carbon dating results?
 

Peyton Manning

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is the bowsprit intact ? if so look at how the gammoning attaches the keel to the bowsprit, if it has a saddle cut into the bowsprit it is from the 1700's, if there is a tennon with a board in front to keep the gammoning ropes from sliding it is early 1800's, if just the tennon then it is mid to late 1800's. the cannons should have some sort of markings on them that can help date the ship. the british built their ships different from us, the keel and keelson were notched to hold the ribs and they used tennons between the ribs on the planking edge to help absorb cannon fire, the keel should be made from elm if it is british, the british used a tool to keep the spikes from splitting while being hammered the head ends of the spikes should be in good condition. if it is an armed british ship that can help date the wreck. if it is American made we used more ribs but they were slightly smaller, the spikes will probably have splits on the heads(cracking) from being hit directly, we used iron for the lightning protection the british used copper, theirs will be plates nailed into the keel/keelson area by the mast step, ours were iron rods. if any china is on board that can help date the wreck. crock work too can help date the wreck, the type of cannon balls or ordinance can help date the wreck. glassware can help too. let us know what you see and maybe we can help.


wow, that is EXACTLY what I was going to say
 

Smithbrown

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I think Surf nailed this one with the suggestion it is Mr McNally behind it. Looking forward to seeing the carbon dates and, more particularly, the 14th century cannon and evidence why this should all be associated with the Templars. Looking a bit Dan Brown at this stage.
 

ATH

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Delaware river cannons

Hi, We been contacted to help prove the age of a shipwreck with cannons in the Delaware River in Pa. This area is to be dredged in the spring of 2014 and we hope to save the site and stop the dredging until it is checked out. We plan to send some wood from the ship out to be carbon dated this week. If you are from this area and can offer help let us know.Thank You

I saw this posting and needed to reply...I am very familiar with the Delaware River....spent most my life on it in search and I am also very involved with the county and local historical societies...I think what you are doing is important and I believe i could help...would like to hear from you....ed
 

hobbit

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Oct 1, 2010
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I think Surf nailed this one with the suggestion it is Mr McNally behind it. Looking forward to seeing the carbon dates and, more particularly, the 14th century cannon and evidence why this should all be associated with the Templars. Looking a bit Dan Brown at this stage.

The Templars must have been quite busy. They apparently created the Swiss banking system, helped Robert the Bruce defeat the English at Bannockburn, buried the Holy Grail (and or other treasures) at Rosslyn Chapel, dug a really deep hole to secrete treasure on Oak Island and apparently, routinely crossed the Atlantic.

That an unknown wreck on the bottom of the Delaware River is a Templar ship seems only logical. :tongue3:
 

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