Shipwrecks

[Peg Leg]

I was wondering why there is no news of any Shipwrecks being found these days?
Can it be that since the 2000 decision by the Federal Courts that says that Spanish ships that went down in 1733 belong to Spain. This is why the State of Florida does not issue ANY new permits but yet still claims to have ownership saying these ship were ABANDONED. But the decision made in 2000 tells a different story.
I have been dealing with the State of Florida for the past several weeks seeking clarification as to who owns what within the State controlled waters and how can the State of Florida say what is ABANDONED and what is not.
I also brought the matter of the FERN-A which was blown into the woods on the Gulf Coast last year with no attemp being made to recovery this commercial craft. The fuel tanks are 1/2 full and will start leaking in time. I asked the State of Florida that according to what they say is the Law would they issue me a permit to recover this craft and since it has no Historic value it does not require any type of Archie work. This is when the State went silent.
I then contacted the EPA and asked them the same question. This boat has NO imnsurance and the owner/owners are no where to be found. There are also some serious errors that appear in the ships paper work-like the real name of the owner/owners. I have even gone so far as to contact the place where this boat was said to have been constructed and was told that no boat this size was ever built at this location. The permits to operate this craft expired about 4 months ago.
What I guess what I am trying to say is if anyone out there is expecting to get a Search permit or a recovery permit in the forseeable future don't hold your breath.
There is a lot of B.S. going on here but I will keep sending letters to the State of Florida just to see what happens next.
The last letter that I DID recieve said that Mr. Jeff Moates WAS ON A PROJECT-SOMEWHERE.
Well that is where things stand right now.
Peg Leg

 

[mariner]

Peg Leg,

Keep at them. States are obliged to release true information about their policies under their individual equivalents of the Federal Freedom of Information Act. In my opinion, the State of Florida, or any other State, has no authority to issue any new permits on Spanish wrecks in their waters. I said on this forum several months ago that this was the case, and asked anybody who heard of a new permit being issued to bring it to my attention. So far I have heard nothing, and meanwhile had confirmation from a very reliable source that Florida has refused to issue permits to the Fisher organisation for recovery of any of the 1733 fleet.

Mariner

 

[Treasure-Diver]

....and the federal government and state governments wonder why people raid and plunder historical wrecks. Between everyone fighting and arguing over these great pieces of history no one wins. It has been a dream of mine to search out and find some of these lost treasures, but now it is beginning to look like that will not happen, unless I want to break the law there is no use in attempting it. A few years back Florida would at least talk to you about recovering ships legally. Here in the Great state of Texas it is all mine, mine, mine! They have a strangle hold on anything off or in their waters. I love the pirate era of history and it looks like if I ever wanted to recover any "plunder" I would have to follow in the footsteps of those long ago outlaw seamen. Loose lips sink ships! What a shame that things are going that way.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Tally ho Cornelius. this obviously would apply to land abandonment, such as lost mines also.


Tropical TRamp

 

[ScubaDude]

Peg Leg,
I applaud your tenacity.

Brad

 

[ScubaFinder]

Cornellius, I have been doing some thinking along these lines. If a pirate operation were to be mounted, what better guise than an aquaculture facility protected by the homestead act. In the recent past, I raised Seahorses for the ornamental aquarium trade, and had my aquaculture permits in place in Texas. If you had your legal site, your aquaculture permits, and could ship seahorses or other seacreatures on demand, no-one would question a boat parked over an area with divers going down and bringing things up. In Texas, aquaculture permits can sometimes get you access to State Park submerged lands if you can prove the circumstances warrant it....hmmmmm, don't you have a project that could use that sort of permission

If I can raise seahorses in a 50 gallon aquarium, imagine what I could do with a 160 acre lease of natural seawater. Other points I'm thinking about are that seahorses (especially when young) are very sensitive to dissolved solids in the water, specifically copper, but Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite and fluctuations in oxygen levels also are detrimental. No tests that I know of have been ran for silver, but I do know what minerals (and water changes) take place as it oxidizes. I wonder if there is a loophole where if silver corroding in your seahorse water was affecting your success as an environmental organization, you could remove it as a nuisance mineral or something along those lines. Seahorses are on every environmental groups list as either being endangered or imperriled, so if you bred them for release back into the wild, you could have support from many environmental agencies and government grants to help offset your costs as well. Repopulating seahorses on the governments dime...while illegally recovering treasure...I wonder how that would play out in the courts.

I still want and will try my best to be legal and honest...even if that means looking outside the U.S.A. since our own Federal Court System seems to be against us. If it comes down to piracy, Cornellius' idea just might be brilliant. If any of you see "Jason's Seahorse Re-Polulation Project" on the water...mums the word!

Jason

 

[ScubaDude]

I'm still here, I nominte DOC as our fearless leader.

 

[Peg Leg]

HAPPY THANKS GIVING EVERYONE

Peg Leg

 

[ScubaFinder]

Don,

It's not that there isn't a $100 bill poking it's head out of my pocket saying "Please, send me to Don". Try to start up any club or organization by saying "send me money" and you will always fail. Organizations start with a small core group, they define a set of goals and by-laws, the elect a president, treasurer, etc. They build a web site, make a plan of action, THEN they solicit people for membership, and of course all worthy memberships are attached to fees.

So far, I could have sent you $220, and I would be "part owner" of a restaurant that doesn't exist, a treasure hunting company that can't find it's shipwreck, and now a club that hasn't got a plan. Don't take this wrong, I know you well enough to know that you aren't out to screw anyone, but think about how that looks to people who don't know. With 200,000 memberships at $100 a piece, you've raised $2 million dollars. You can't seriously expect to raise that kind of money based on a plan that starts with you getting arrested....

The reason I am all for joining the existing organization is because we have discussed this many times, and we can't even decide on a name around here. These things take a lot more than money to be effective. I'm not sure how we can be effective yet, which is why I'm not involving myself much lately. When I see a spot to BE effective in, I will be there.

 

[ScubaDude]

Peg,
Congratulations on the quickest LLC formation I've ever seen. I'm curious why set a precident asking for permission from Spain before confirming and identifying your wreck? Perhaps step through the hoops and get an exploration permit and verify what you've got first. In the interum we might all get off our butt's and get back to the idea of backing or begining some form of association to address the issues at hand. I've got a website and clean forum ready to go if and when it's time.

Brad

 

[Peg Leg]

O.K. guys,
You tell me how you would do this (without spending any money).
If you can please tell me where and how you expect to raise the needed funds.
Peg Leg

 

[Peg Leg]

NC BRAD,
I am fairly new to underwater treasure hunting but I am NOT new to raising money.
Since reading all the posting I was under the impression that there were a few on this Forum that MIGHT be interested in making some money without getting wet or without leaving their house so I offered my ideas. My concept will work but not here. I may have put the cost of Membership to high to start with.
I could have formed a regular Corporation and offered stock/shares but after reading about A CERTAIN Treasure Corporation losing millions of dollars I said NO WAY.
You said that you must get a exploration or research permit first.
What if the State does want to give you one for some unknown reason or just sits and does nothing.
We both know that time is MONEY.
As far as HANDOUTS are concerned this AIN'T never gonna be enough. What happens when you get say $1,000 and still no permit and the $1,000 is spent trying to get things done. MY Ghost Ship has cost me about $5,000 out of pocket so far.
Lets say that you raise $50,000 and then what?
I know the exact location of my Ghost Ship (finally) but I am no closer in getting a Permit as I was when I started.
You also ask about not knowing the size of the wreck and if it is a wreck at all.
The Ghost Ship I know the exact size and I can give a pretty good estimate on the age.
All your questions are based on you getting a PERMIT-BUT again what if the State claims 100% of what you find then what do you do next? How can you pay your Investors back?
Now what can you do to protect your investors because right now you cannot even protect yourself.
You MUST do whatever you can regardless if it popular or not.
If you are not allowed to even take a sample of wood to do a dating process how can you date the wreck. What if the water is O vis so photos are no good, a mag will tell you only if there is ferrous metal around and nothing else. Now if you have a Bottom Profiler this will no doubt help-to a point.
The point that I am trying to make here is you might be forced to take a different route to secure your site. This is what I am doing right now.
What if your wreck turns out to be a Spanish? The State does not have any claim according to the law of 1902 and was proven in 2000 in a Federal Appeals Court.
I will not get into this as deeply as I would like to because it does not matter what I think but it matters what I am prepared to do.
People ask me WHY am I wanting to get permission from Spain and the answer is simple BECAUSE THEY OWN THE SHIP OR THE CORTES HEIRS OWN THE SHIP. I already have permission from the Cortes Heirs and am seeking permission from the Government of Spain to start recovering artifacts.
This to me is the LEGAL way and the only recourse that I have.
I will say this I BELIEVE THAT THIS WRECK IS OF A GREAT HISTORICAL VALUE AND MAY FILLED WITH TREASURE THAT MAY BE EQUAL TO THE ATOCHA- MAYBE NOT IN GOLD OR SILVER BUT WITH ARTIFACTS.
Brad I know that you are not trying to be a smart ass. You have questions and you asked them.
O.K. back to raising funds:
It is easier to $10.00 than to raise $1000.00 it is just that it takes a little longer to reach the amount you will need.
I am having a website developed to raise money for this Project. So I will not ask again on this forum.
Thanks
Peg leg

 

[ScubaDude]

Peg Leg,
Again, my post was not considered as a personal attack. The reason I have a Corporation is because is was set up that way as an income producing business years back.

I suck at fundraising, I have to earn it one way or another.

Florida might be doing people a favor not issuing permits right now (if infact they're not). They've got a heck of a lot more lawyers working for them than I could ever afford. My hunch is that their sitting on their hands until someone appeals the 2000 decision. They'd possibly be creating more problems for themselves and their constituents by allowing new permit work to begin. I don't understand why no research permits though. With the current mess they've created for themselves with the HMS Fowley situation I doubt they are interested in stealing anyones projects, especially in light of the 2000 decision.

I guess I understand your logic in setting things up as you propose. I just don't see the harm in pursuing the research permit first. It won't cost you pennies compared to what its going to cost you set up your proposed agreements with Spain and the Cortes Heirs.

My point is that before I spent a small fortune in legal fees, I would proceed by doing a Little more due diligence on the site itself. You seem to always jump to the position that FLA is out to get you, and won't allow you to follow the process they set up. I can promise you that if you persist in trying to do covert research, and present your ideas and findings on a public internet site as you've done; if they start putting things together you'll never get a permit regardless of whatever legal documents you hold. They are still the governing body responsible for issuing permits on their lands, you might fight that for a while in court and get one, then they'll slam you with a bunch of environmental restrictions so tight that it wouldn't be feasible at any cost.

My approach is to stay under their radar and try and accomplish things within existing boundaries. Don't give Spain & Cortes a nickle until you find one. Hell this whole thing could get overturned in the next few years then you'd be obligated to giving away the store when you didn't need to. Worse yet your Ghost ship might not be what you think it is, you need to shelve your emotions a little on this and acknowledge that possible reality.

I understand your objectives and your approach, I guess we just differ in the path to the end. Best wishes my friend.

Brad

 

[Peg Leg]

NC BRAD,
I am STILL trying to work with the State of Florida. Everything I am doing now is a "JUST IN CASE." operation.
I have not told everything concerning this site and will not give out more information than I already have.
BUT I can tell you this,
There is not a single doubt that the State of Florida WILL NOT JUMP THIS CLAIM once certain information comes to light and it will come to light. It is only a matter of time.
Time will tell.
Peg Leg

 

[mariner]

NC Brad,

As the personal representative of the current heir to Cortes, I can assure you that it has cost Peg Leg absolutely nothing to get our permission to explore his possible wreck, so as to get evidence of its existence and identity. I expect that the same will be true of Spain, though they may be more reluctant to confirm their permission.

I think there is a principle here that is very important to all THers in Florida, and Peg Leg deserves their support in pursuing it, whether or not you have doubts about the existence of his wrecks. Most of th wrecks in Florida waters are Spanish, and as such are not abandoned, per the SeaHunt ruling. Therefore, the State of Florida has no rights to these wrecks, and I think it is entirely unconstitutional for them to continue to act as if they did. They might well have some rights as regards the ocean and the ocean bed, but as the Jupiter recovery demonstrates, digging holes in the sea bed does not seem to be a significant issue for Florida.

Good luck, Peg Leg, and keep going. I hope that your potential wreck does turn out to be an important and valuable find, and that you find a basis for recovering it both legally and profitably.

Mariner

 

[mad4wrecks]

Mariner: my question to you is, who and how do they determine the ship to belong to the Spanish crown if they cannot identify the actual name of the ship 100%?

Are merchant ships included?

None of the 1715 wrecks for instance have been positively identified. The actual subcontract I have lists them all as "unidentified abandoned sailing vessels."

And I'm sure it has crossed a few peoples minds to maybe add a few French, Dutch or English artifacts to their newly found shipwreck (not difficult to do) just to throw everyone off. Hey, a pirate ship!

 

[mariner]

Tom,

You raise good points, as usual, but the starting point is the interpretation of the 1902 Treaty that the US Federal Court has chosen to adopt, which is that Spanish wrecks in US waters are only abandoned by express act on the part of their owners.

The Treaty specifically covers shipwrecks "whether belonging to the State or to individuals", and though the SeaHunt case dealt only with two ships the Juno and LaGalga that were acknowledged to have been Spanish warships, the ruling of the court about the standard of abandonment related to the meaning of the Treaty rather than to these specific wrecks. The ruling, though certainly extends the exemption from salvage claims to all wrecks that were owned by the Kingdom of Spain, whether or not they were on purely non-commercial duty.

It is true that many wrecks cannot be individually identified, and that an "enterprising" potential salver might try to disguise the nationality of a wreck by salting it with genuine artifacts of other nationalities. In the end, it would be up to a Federal Court to determine whether or not such a ship was not a "Spanish" shipwreck, in which case abandonment might be assumed because of the passing of time and lack of effort on the part of the owner (which used to be the general standard for abandonment) and the wreck would then come under the 1987 ASA, and come under the jurisdiction of the coastal State in whose waters it lies. I would be surprised, however, if any coastal State would issue a permit for a shipwreck that looked as if it might be Spanish without getting some kind of clearance from Spain.

I think there are still several unanswered questions about the application of the Treaty to privately-owned ships. If they were operating independently of the Kingdom of Spain, I think the wrecks belong to the current rightful heirs to the private owners, or to the successors of the insurance company if a claim was made and paid out. However, I do not think the position is clear if the ship was privately owned but part of a Spanish government convoy, particularly as this sometimes included ships of other nationalities which Spain contracted because of their own shortage of Government vessels. The 1902 Treaty says that "all vessels sailing under the flag of Spain and furnished with the papers which the laws of Spain require, shall be regarded in the United States as Spanish vessels." The matter is complicated further by the fact that the Court of Appeals rules that a Treaty between two sovereign states shall have the meaning that those two states agree that it shall have. In other words, if the US Department of State and Spain agree that privately owned ships working under contract to Spain, then that is what the Courts will apply.

I do not know what position Spain is going to take on the examination and recovery of wrecks that the US courts accept as belonging to Spain. I suspect that they will generally adopt the view that shipwrecks are best left where they are, (a position with which I personally disagree) but I do not know because they have not yet had to make such a decision, as far as I know. That is one reason why I have been encouraging PegLeg and others to approach Spain with their wrecks and ask if they (Spain) would be willing to give permission for the wreck to be examined and recovered. I have advised each person not to disclose the location of the wreck, in order to preserve some leverage in the negotiations.

There has been a lot of talk lately about getting US laws changed to permit greater flexibility in the examination and recovery of wrecks. I think such a task is doomed a very lengthy, expensive and probably doomed fate, and may be moot in any case if the wrecks are Spanish. I think it would be far better for respected representative of the TH community to broach discussions with the Government of Spain, to see if they could agree a set of conditions under which Spain would be prepared to give permission for her wrecks to be examined and recovered.

I do not know if any group has already tried to do so. I would be surprised, for example, if the Fisher group had not done so in relation to the 1933 wrecks that they have found, but if they have, they are not saying what the outcome is, in public at least.

My own personal view is that the wrecks of Spanish ships that were privately owned should not be regarded as the property of Spain, even if they were in a Spanish convoy, but that might not be what a Federal Court would decide. I also think that the chances of salting a Spanish wreck with non-Spanish artifacts so that it could be misrepresented as a pirate ship are small to non-existent, and would lay the salver involved open to potentially massive fraud charges.

Incidentally, tracing the current heirs of old privately-owned Spanish shipwrecks is not necessarily that difficult.

Just my opinions, of course. I am not a maritime lawyer, but I have given the matter some thought because of my position as personal representative to the current heir of Hernan Cortes and his heirs.

Mariner

 

[ScubaDude]

Here is exactly what the court had to say, make your own informed decisions.

http://www.admiraltylawguide.com/circt/4thseahunt.html

 

[ScubaDude]

For clarification the Juno was classed as a warship of 34 guns - sunk October 29, 1802; stong winds and excessive leaks, 425 passengers and 300,000 pesos lost.

 

[Peg Leg]

Well my friends I hope this clears up some of the question of WHY I am doing what I am doing and why I am doing it this way.
Right now I am the only Member of AUDIA RESOURCES INC. LLC.
I would post a Membership Certificate on this forum if I knew how -just to show that it is not a cheap piece of paper. It is printed on Bond Paper just like Stocks and Bonds are printed on.
Moderators:
This may not be the right place to post this offer and if it is not I AM SORRY-FEEL FREE TO MOVE IT ANYWHERE YOU WANT.
Of course AUDIA RESOURCES will only issue a certain number of Certificates.
Thanks.
Don "Peg Leg" Webb P>S>
The cost of Membership is NOW within the price range of everyone.
dwebb27@cfl.rr.com