Solved? more input needed on old no-name pistol

[dozer dan]

here are the pictures of my pistol. the only pictures i could find to match it is the griswold and gunnison. my pistol is .36 cal. brass frame with a round barrel. there is no name on it. the ser. # is in the 17,000s and stamped two times on the brass, one time on the cylinder, and one time under the barrel assembly. all ser. #s match. the ser #s are erratic as they are not aligned well. the rod is 2 piece construction, in the pictures you can see this. there also appeares to be a blood etched finger print on the underside of the barrel. one person i asked to examin it said he thought he saw a tiny stamping on the cylinder of a crescent moon with a star in it. i however do not see this.
i am grateful for your interest and any info you could provide. sorry about the pic's. im still catchin on. Dan

 

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[l.cutler]

The serial numbers are intact but conflicting.
On the inside its stamped with 1257 in several places and penciled on the grips.

On the outside it is stamped 17212 in many places

assembly numbers inside the revolver are done during initial fitting, the real serial numbers are stamped last. I checked my repro revolvers and all have assembly numbers stamped inside on metal parts as well as written numbers on the wood grips that are different than the serial number. I see bigcypresshunters does as well.

 

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[dozer dan]

I just emailed the seller and the website of the one I just posted and asked them to view this posting and give some insight. if they are willing, we'll see how it goes. also, the seller replied that he couldn't prove his was authentic until he sent it to the united states to have the metal tested. I will try to find out where he sent it and will pay to have mine tested as well. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Soooooooo close yet still so far.

 

[dozer dan]

I keep coming back here Dan because its interesting.


I have a few observations from my Italian replica. My frame is brass. It has the number 7136 stamped and also hand written inside the grip.
My hammer has the sight notch and safety pin notch same as yours, although it has no safety pins. It also has the roller, same as yours. It seems the replica hammers are made the same old way so there is no help there in your quest to authenticate.

I don't know if it is relevent but your grips are marked with an ink marker of sorts and mine is in pencil. sorry to log out but I've been at the computer so long that my wife is getting impatient and i have to go.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The serial numbers are intact but conflicting.
On the inside its stamped with 1257 in several places and penciled on the grips.

On the outside it is stamped 17212 in many places

assembly numbers inside the revolver are done during initial fitting, the real serial numbers are stamped last. I checked my repro revolvers and all have assembly numbers stamped inside on metal parts as well as written numbers on the wood grips that are different than the serial number. I see bigcypresshunters does as well.

Good observation. The 1257 is just an assembly number. As you say the serial number is 17212 but it appears to have been stamped over a filed off number. I have been asking dozer this question since June if it was filed off but for for some unknown reason he keeps sidestepping my repeated questions. Unless I missed it.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

sorry to log out but I've been at the computer so long that my wife is getting impatient and i have to go.

Its not necessary to stay online all day. Just check back every couple days or so and try to answer questions. If you dont understand the questions please say so. Thanks.

Dozer, was the number filed off?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I just emailed the seller and the website of the one I just posted and asked them to view this posting and give some insight. if they are willing, we'll see how it goes. also, the seller replied that he couldn't prove his was authentic until he sent it to the united states to have the metal tested. I will try to find out where he sent it and will pay to have mine tested as well. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Soooooooo close yet still so far.

Sounds great. Since you are able to communicate with the seller, can you ask him to show you the rest of the listing pictures? I find it hard to believe that he sold an antique with one poor pic.

 

[l.cutler]

I keep coming back here Dan because its interesting.


I have a few observations from my Italian replica. My frame is brass. It has the number 7136 stamped and also hand written inside the grip.
My hammer has the sight notch and safety pin notch same as yours, although it has no safety pins. It also has the roller, same as yours. It seems the replica hammers are made the same old way so there is no help there in your quest to authenticate.

I don't know if it is relevent but your grips are marked with an ink marker of sorts and mine is in pencil. sorry to log out but I've been at the computer so long that my wife is getting impatient and i have to go.

My older replica has the assembly number in pencil, my more recent one has marker.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: more input needed on old no-name pistol

http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Antique-Pistol-Hand-guns/-Colt-1851-Navy-Pattern-gun-for-sale-gs1608.aspx

Second hand Colt 1851 Navy Pattern .36" Pistol / Hand guns for sale on GunStar.

A Colt model 1851 Navy pattern .36-caliber percussion cap revolver by an unknown maker.

It has a brass frame and the serial number stamped 1247 (mine is 1257) on frame, chamber and barrel.

Also it would help if you would ask the seller where the number 1247 was stamped. A pic would be even better. I cant believe he could sell an antique firearm without a pic of the serial number. I hope he can send the listing pics it to you. Good luck. I would really like to see this one put to bed.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I just emailed the seller and the website of the one I just posted and asked them to view this posting and give some insight. if they are willing, we'll see how it goes. also, the seller replied that he couldn't prove his was authentic until he sent it to the united states to have the metal tested. I will try to find out where he sent it and will pay to have mine tested as well. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Soooooooo close yet still so far.

Im assuming he is referring to radiocarbon dating which can be used to determine the approximate age of many organic materials. Iron and steel of course are not organic but if smelted with charcoal, instead of coal, the metal has the potential to be carbon dated. (If charcoal was used to smelt the iron, impregnated traces of carbon derived from the charcoal vapor can be measured). Even with prepaid expedited service, the test requires at least four weeks to obtain results, generally longer, it is moderately expensive, up to $1000 including shipping and sampling and the sample is destroyed, so no further tests can be performed on it. http://www.tkasian.com/pages/authentication_research/radiocarbon_dating/

Im curious as to what test was performed to date this pistol at 1863. I hope you will keep us informed.

 

[gauge]

TRY THIS LINK FROM ROCL ISLAND AUCTIONS.
http://www.gun-photos.info/gunphotos?photoid=3633&iid=279913&aid=52
IT IS A GRISWOLD 1851 NAVY

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

TRY THIS LINK FROM ROCL ISLAND AUCTIONS.
http://www.gun-photos.info/gunphotos?photoid=3633&iid=279913&aid=52
IT IS A GRISWOLD 1851 NAVY

The serial numbers are too high for the Confederate made Griswold. According to dozer, all the serial numbers are intact. Griswold was the largest Confederate manufacturer and produced about 3700 between 1862 and 1864. How do you explain the high serial numbers in modern fonts, gauge?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I just emailed the seller and the website of the one I just posted and asked them to view this posting and give some insight. if they are willing, we'll see how it goes.

The seller sold an unknown gun stating it was made in 1863. I doubt he wants anything to do with this thread. Just a feeling.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Dozers 1257 is not the same font as the Griswold numbers but very similar. I have been thinking there is the possibility that someone filed off the original number 1257 in the brass frame and stamped the modern 17212 over top. They also stamped the cylinder thus causing us all these problems with identification.



The GunStar seller can help solve our mystery but Im not sure he wants to, in doing so may implicate himself.

I see a modern 2 to the left complicating matters.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I feel like Im talking to myself lol. It seems that everyone has lost interest.

I read back and answered one of my own questions. The number 1247 (dozers is 1257) is stamped on frame, chamber and barrel of the GunStar.

Dozers brass frame appears filed off and stamped 17212. Dozers barrel is stamped 1257.. I dont know what he means by chamber. Dozers trigger guard is also 1257. The 17212's are numerous but all modern fonts apparently stamped at a later date ands maybe should be ignored.

I think there is a connection between the 2 guns. If we could only get a pic of the serial numbers we could compare fonts.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Any update dozer.

 

[dozer dan]

Sorry its taken so long but i was really hoping for something more uplifting or substantial to report. I guess that's just not to be the case. after emailing "gunstar" to ask about the pistol that was sold there I received very little useful info back. It seems no one wanted to talk about it. I also wanted to give it a little time to make sure I didn't jump the gun (no pun intended) and then get a reply from Norm Flayderman who so far has not shown any interest in this mystery.
I have copied the conversations and you can draw your own conclusion.

#1
I have an unknown make 1851 pistol that for years now, I have been trying to identify always with mixed reviews from the experts. On dec. 1 I was at the computer once again and finaly saw a picture of a matching pistol on your site but it was already sold and had limited details. here is a copy of your site link for that gun.

http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Antique-Pistol-Hand-guns/-Colt-1851-Navy-Pattern-gun-for-sale-gs1608.aspx

I guess what my question is, could you please help me identify my pistol or relay my info to either the buyier or seller of the pistol that was sold on gunstar so we can compair notes?
I also have mine posted on a treasurenet.com website with many pictures and details if you'd care to take a look and give your opinion.
One question everyone is asking is, on the one you sold, how was the mfg. date known? Here is a link to the site.


http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,224899.0.html



My pistol is in the forum, under "what is it" then scroll down to the posting "Solved? more input needed on old no-name pistol" you'll see that there are many similarities with mine and the one you sold listed as "Second hand Colt 1851 Navy Pattern .36" Pistol". Any assistance on your part would be greatly appreciated. Dan

response;
Hi,

Thanks for the email. This was advertised by the Antiques Storehouse ([email protected]). With them being a trader and their details on the web anywar, i can give you their email address without any DPA problems.

You could also try adding a post to the GunStar forum (http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Forum/GunStar-Forum-Topics.aspx) there is a section for unknown guns.

Regards

Dom

 

[dozer dan]

#2


> I have an unknown make 1851 pistol that for years now, I have been trying
> to identify always with mixed reviews from the experts. On dec. 1 I was at
> the computer once again and finaly saw a picture of a matching pistol on
> this site but it was already sold and had limited details. here is a copy
> of the site link for that gun.
>
> http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Antique-Pistol-Hand-guns/-Colt-1851-Navy-Pattern-gun-for-sale-gs1608.aspx
>
> I guess what my question is, could you please help me identify my pistol
> or relay my info to either the buyier or seller of the pistol that was
> sold on gunstar so we can compair notes?
> I also have mine posted on a treasurenet.com website with many pictures
> and details if you'd care to take a look and give your opinion.
> One question everyone is asking is, on the one you sold, how was the mfg.
> date known? Here is a link to the site.
>
>
> http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,224899.0.html
>
>
>
> My pistol is in the forum, under "what is it" then scroll down to the
> posting "Solved? more input needed on old no-name pistol" you'll see
> that there are many similarities with mine and the one you sold listed as
> "Second hand Colt 1851 Navy Pattern .36" Pistol". Any assistance on your
> part would be greatly appreciated. Dan


The reply;
Hi,
this was one of mine, I had hoped it was a Griswold but metal tests
in the States proved it to be otherwise hence the asking price.

Regards,
Andrew Bennett,
Antiques Storehouse,
Storehouse 9,
Main Road,
Portsmouth Historic Dockyard,
Portsmouth,
Hampshire.
PO1 3PX.
United Kingdom.
Tel: 02392 851723.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The reply;
Hi,
this was one of mine, I had hoped it was a Griswold but metal tests
in the States proved it to be otherwise hence the asking price.

Regards,
Andrew Bennett,
Antiques Storehouse,
Storehouse 9,
Main Road,
Portsmouth Historic Dockyard,
Portsmouth,
Hampshire.
PO1 3PX.
United Kingdom.
Tel: 02392 851723.

[/quote]


It sounds as if he has reconsidered his original assessment of the 1863 date of manufacture. Smart man. He has chosen his words carefully even though they seem to be contradictory.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I guess you will not be satisfied until you find the manufacturer of the gun and I dont blame you.

 

[dozer dan]

After receiving this email, I called a couple labs that advertised all kinds of metal testing.

Their response,
"it is not possible to age test something like this without destroying it"
They could test the composition and compare it to known pistols of that era, but that's about as close as it gets. If anyone knows different or of someone that can,please let me know.

Personally, I have doubts that the one sold was ever sent to the U.S. for test of any kind.
Andrew Bennett (the seller) would not volunteer any info as to what company tested it.


As for the serial numbers on my pistol. As long as I have owned it nothing other than a
screwdriver to disassemble it for pictures has touched it.

Maybe I should just send it to the U.K. along with a high price and a claim that it originally belonged to John Wilks Booth and hope it sells. It seems they don't require proof over there.