Some interesting old Film clips of Victorio peak

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello

To those who are interested, my apologies if they have been posted before. Here is some links that may be of some interest.











Amy

 

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[Corporate Investigations]

Here is one more...



Anyway I hope it of some interest.

Amy

 

[sdcfia]

Anyway I hope it of some interest.

Amy

IMO, Gold House Book 1 is the most detailed and revealing material currently available on the Noss shenanigans during the 30s and 40s. Despite the writer's apparent motivation, I found the book to be possibly a huge Freudian slip, exposing Noss's true character and the depth of his scams in great detail.

 

[gollum]

Steve,

I think you are reading waaaaaay too much into that on Doc's Part. I have always said that anything is possible, but like the Stone Maps, people try reading way too much into them. When other maps come out, it will happen with them too. When the solution is found, everybody will probably smack themselves in the forehead because of how stupefyingly simple the solution will be. HAHAHA


Mike

 

[whiskeyrat]

IMO, Gold House Book 1 is the most detailed and revealing material currently available on the Noss shenanigans during the 30s and 40s. Despite the writer's apparent motivation, I found the book to be possibly a huge Freudian slip, exposing Noss's true character and the depth of his scams in great detail.

At first I was only interested in book 1 because it was more about the early noss and some of the willie finds. I didnt care to read about government corruption in book 2.
However, the last week I have been reading book 2. There is a lot of "evidence" as you progress thru book 2 that seems to prove Noss gold was real as also was a more modern gold.
Stuff not even hinted at in book 1.
wr

 

[motel6.5]

I believe Tom Jolly,passed my lie detector test. Willie Donut looks like one mean sucker.

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello All

I wanted to post here a link to an episode of Unsolved mysteries I once watched online once an episode of Victorio peak. However it seems to have been removed from the net?.

Although an interesting story of course. For me with this story I have never really came to definite conclusion either way yet I have read some accounts, not all, from both sides of the debate which make some interesting points. One such blogger on the net lambasted believers in the story of taking unverified facts to support the story having some truth to the story. While their own hypothesis does the same thing by using unverified claims as evidence the whole story was fraud.

For any credibility one has determine difference between secondary and first hand accounts. With treasure legends it is not so easy as the more popular the legend becomes the more convoluted the story becomes. With many extras adding their 15 seconds of fame to the story. The real truth behind the story regardless lies with Doc. However due to his life being cut short by Charlie Ryan we will be all left forever and a day to speculate the truth behind what has become an amazing treasure legend.

And perhaps a moot point in some respects to some of the claims. Regardless of which side ones opinion falls on the story, it has ingrained itself into America folklore and a worthy subject for speculation.

Amy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning AMY luv, veryone seems to forget NP's lil map.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Gentlemen, please keep politics out of thread.

 

[sdcfia]

Hello All

I wanted to post here a link to an episode of Unsolved mysteries I once watched online once an episode of Victorio peak. However it seems to have been removed from the net?.

Although an interesting story of course. For me with this story I have never really came to definite conclusion either way yet I have read some accounts, not all, from both sides of the debate which make some interesting points. One such blogger on the net lambasted believers in the story of taking unverified facts to support the story having some truth to the story. While their own hypothesis does the same thing by using unverified claims as evidence the whole story was fraud.

For any credibility one has determine difference between secondary and first hand accounts. With treasure legends it is not so easy as the more popular the legend becomes the more convoluted the story becomes. With many extras adding their 15 seconds of fame to the story. The real truth behind the story regardless lies with Doc. However due to his life being cut short by Charlie Ryan we will be all left forever and a day to speculate the truth behind what has become an amazing treasure legend.

And perhaps a moot point in some respects to some of the claims. Regardless of which side ones opinion falls on the story, it has ingrained itself into America folklore and a worthy subject for speculation.

Amy

It's tough to take a stand on folklore when nearly everything defining it is hearsay and allegation. That's pretty much the case in Doc's life, ca 1930 to 1950, the period during which the VP legend was built. Most of the VP "testimony" came from Doc's camp followers - some of it is conflicting. His family descendants' opinions are understandably supportive of the legend as we know it, but most of them were not actually present during the prime events. The closest family member was Doc's wife Ova, who was obviously sandbagged by him before he abandoned her for another woman. Ironically, perhaps the most telling hearsay is from one of Doc's business associates, Merle Holzmann, who kept a journal of events for years. She was originally hired on as a partner in the "VP mining operation" for a healthy percentage of the recovery, but soon realized the whole thing was a scam and turned traitor - trying to gather enough evidence for government law enforcement folks to nail Doc for a number of fraudulent activities.

We do have a scant number of acceptable "facts" along the way to help us try to decide things. We know the government dogged Doc for years, based on rumors of him violating the Gold Act (selling bullion). No evidence was found, indicating that Doc was not trying to sell gold bars, even though some of his attempted (and possibly successful) sales were counterfeit bullion bars. This brings us to another fact: the only surviving Noss assay reports. The bullion bars assayed were about 80% copper, with a forty pound ingot carrying about five ounces of gold and some silver. We know that Noss was very active in, and had associations with Douthit and others in the Caballo Mountains, where multiple people report gold cache recoveries around the early 1930s, prior to Doc's VP "discovery". Another fact: Doc Noss had a continuing history of trouble with law enforcement, dating back to a prison term served in the NM State Penitentiary, with stops at a variety of other jails and lockups for such things as fraud, assault, domestic violence, D/D, theft, etc. If nothing else, this trail helps establish Noss's character. Critical evidence lacking during the 1930-1950 period: proof of assay for a "gold bar", photograph(s) of the "treasure room" in VP, proof of a "gold bar" that Noss sold to another.

Whatever happened at VP after 1950 is another legend altogether, IMO, and for me has no bearing on Noss's VP claims. If there was a large gold cache at VP, there's no evidence that Doc discovered it himself. If there was not a gold cache in VP prior to 1950, subsequent government activities/coverups there are unknown. Whether this alleged bullion came from illegal German war spoils is strictly speculative on my part.

 

[motel6.5]

All of those nasty occurances that Doc. may have been involved in,whether true or not, cannot for any amount of gold Negate the raw viedo taped by Tom Jolly. Tom told the truth, and the pudding points to Victorio Peak, not Twin Peaks or any other location...Their may still be other locations with dead Padres,and Gold Bars,and Lost Documents,,good luck in finding those as they are probably under tons of raw dirt.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sdc, to a point you are correct, but if you look at the data on Tayopa -- which is a related subject -- I had very little evidence to work on, even that was suspect. It was mostly rumors and a specific statement by the Jesuits that "we never did any mining in Mexico " - other contries, yes, of course, they were saying, In essence, there was nothing concrete on Tayopa, Even F. Dobies book Apache Gold and Yaqui silver" which popularixzed it in modern times, has no verifiable / viable references, including the map Of Tayopa, yet I have found it and own it. rumors and artifacts someimes can be correct,

Incidentaly, that map is almot 100% corrrect, with the exceptions of the trails to Arisachi and Yokivo being transposed

Also,such as NP's lil map. While it may prove to be a phoney, it 'IS' remarkable how many Parts of it are accurate.

As far as Doc's ativities and reputation go, that proves nothing regarding the existance of a depository goes -- even con artists can be lucky sometimes. ©

 

[sdcfia]

Sdc, to a point you are correct, but if you look at the data on Tayopa -- which is a related subject -- I had very little evidence to work on, even that was suspect. It was mostly rumors and a specific statement by the Jesuits that "we never did any mining in Mexico " - other contries, yes, of course, they were saying, In essence, there was nothing concrete on Tayopa, Even F. Dobies book Apache Gold and Yaqui silver" which popularixzed it in modern times, has no verifiable / viable references, including the map Of Tayopa, yet I have found it and own it. rumors and artifacts someimes can be correct,

such as NP's lil map. While it may prove to be a phoney, it 'IS' remarkable how many Parts of it are accurate.

As far as Doc's ativities and reputation go, that proves nothing regarding the existance of a depository goes -- even con artists can be lucky sometimes.

You're right about Dobie. He's a folklorist (and a good one), but his stories are no more reliable than a treasure magazine writer's. Great campfire material, but nothing that will make you rich. Tayopa? No offense intended, but when you display the treasures of legend there, only then we'll have some good food for thought. Rumors disappear when facts replace them. Same goes for the Lost Dutchman, the Lost Adams, the LUE, and on and on.

 

[motel6.5]

I dont believe the t.Tramp would evade the truth,he has nothing to prove to me,Tayopa exists,and he owns it peroid.
Olay with Taquala, Senoitas, and Music.

 

[Dr. Syn]

Hmm, just thinking out loud. One of the stories is the Govt. came in and cleaned house so to speak. What better way to hide the evidence, first make it no man's land, off limits to the public. Then bomb the hello out of the area to hide any signs. That way if someone did manage to sneak in or a turn of events allowed some folks onto the land, there wouldn't be a chance of them finding anything. Nice "legal" way to cover their tracks.

 

[adtofca]

there is an old man who is probly dead now but that man daughter was my granma friend a long time ago and her dad
was in that mountain ever since he was born and then they moved because the army made them.
she told granma about the old man Doc and he story and the story her dad said about the army came and dug a cave on the
low place on the mountain near the big spring and he was there with a truck and they put a bunch of trucks with bars at his shop
for a few days . She said that he had some of those and the bars were just very old copper bars and the man gave away most of them .
Granma said when the woman let her look at the copper bar it was not done very good and it looked very old and they think the mold they used
was just a sand kind of pouring . a lot of the old people when i was a little kid would laugh about treasure of doc . it was a local joke to the people
in T or C , one man that owned the store said that docs wife had to move away because the town people didn't like her and always made fun of her
for telling a lie about gold treasure . i bet real old bricks of copper are still hid where the old spain mined over in santa rita , some times a man will
find a little of them out in that area .

 

[sdcfia]

there is an old man who is probly dead now but that man daughter was my granma friend a long time ago and her dad
was in that mountain ever since he was born and then they moved because the army made them.
she told granma about the old man Doc and he story and the story her dad said about the army came and dug a cave on the
low place on the mountain near the big spring and he was there with a truck and they put a bunch of trucks with bars at his shop
for a few days . She said that he had some of those and the bars were just very old copper bars and the man gave away most of them .
Granma said when the woman let her look at the copper bar it was not done very good and it looked very old and they think the mold they used
was just a sand kind of pouring . a lot of the old people when i was a little kid would laugh about treasure of doc . it was a local joke to the people
in T or C , one man that owned the store said that docs wife had to move away because the town people didn't like her and always made fun of her
for telling a lie about gold treasure . i bet real old bricks of copper are still hid where the old spain mined over in santa rita , some times a man will
find a little of them out in that area .

Interesting post, adtofca. The only bars Noss had that we know about for certain were copper - 80%, along with some silver and a little gold. I think those bars were found in the Caballos, and IMO the chances are strong that they were originally mined at Santa Rita del Cobre. Those Noss assays match the ore descriptions from the early days at Santa Rita - where else could they have come from?

How about some facts? The Santa Rita mine became active on a large scale during the early 1800s. Below are some quotes from COPPER GENESIS: THE EARLY YEARS OF SANTA RITA DEL COBRE, by Billy D Walker, New Mexico Historical Review, 54:1, 1979 https://ejournals.unm.edu/index.php/nmhr/article/viewFile/712/2664:

Bartlett later reported: "It is said that the owner [Elguea] had a contract with government to deliver the copper there [Chihuahua] at 65 cents a pound, and that sufficient gold was found in it to pay all the cost of transportation" (p 13).

"It is quite likely that Elguea constructed some type of rudimentary blast furnace for melting native copper and copper ore into ingots. It would have been awkward for mules to carry the jagged pieces of copper ore, even if some type of packing material were used. Such furnaces were common in Mexico at the time, and it is known that such a furnace was constructed at Santa Rita sometime prior to 1846" (p 14).

If one assumes that 100 mules were employed, on the average, transporting about 1,000 mule loads of copper ore per year, a reasonable picture emerges in which perhaps two dozen miners and their families lived and worked at Santa Rita. The 300,000 pounds of ore arriving in Ciudad Chihuahua, assuming a 60 percent assay, would have yielded $117,000 (at 65 cents per pound)in annual gross profits for Elguea. After costs for mules, muleskinners,and miners, a handsome net profit no doubt was left, as well as income from gold and silver extracted from the ore" (p 14).


Old Spanish ore bags and ladder discovered at Santa Rita del Cobre

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

g'd evening ADTOFCA. ? The laugh may have been on them. Remember they were Dore' bars, not refined Gold bars.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Shucks SDC, NP's lil map shows that they came from the mines of Tayopa and assoiated mines in Sonora, and Chihuahua Mexico.

 

[gollum]

motel6.5,

His name was TONY JOLLEY, not Tom. His son is still around and verifies everything his dad said. Tony J. was just an old cowboy, and from everybody I have found that knew him personally, he was a COMPLETE straight shooter. If he told you something as a fact, then that is exactly what it was.

Dr Syn,

The government has not ever bombed the area. That entire area is now The San Andres Wildlife Refuge. It is a nature study area. No humans allowed.

Mike