Sovereign Elite VS Fisher CZ-3D

[Jager]

Hello
I had a CZ-3D but had to sell it last year, thought it was a great machine.
Now I am testing out my friends Sovereign Elite, had it out one time, takes some getting use to so I'm deciding if I should buy the Elite or a used 3D with ser# 1021.

One thing I just remembered is that with the 3D in all metal mode you still have 4 tones, meaning you can detect trashy areas, just have to listen to the tones on what to dig. With the Elite in all metal mode you only have one tone, not variable so you dig everything or put it in Disc mode for the mulit tones, and slow recovery after it discriminates out something so maybe miss a good target. Does that sound right?

I am asking for opinions for both machines.

Will be hunting late 1800's homesteads and camps, lots of iron nails and tin.

Thank you.

 

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[Sandman]

Since the Sov will run in low disc with Iron Mask turned on, that seems to be the detector for the homesteads since the 3D will disc out a nail and also miss the coin or ring on top of it. The Sov will sound off on the good target. Try this with a nail on the clean ground with iron mask on an then add a coin or ring to notice how it sounds off. Now try the same thing while using the 3D while disc out the nail. Fisher's just seem to like iron nails better.

 

[Adrian SS]

I have been using my sov xs since it came on the market and had the iron mask disconnected at time of purchase. Have used the machine in the gold fields, parks, gardens, playgrounds, ghost towns at the beach ... everywhere, and had no trouble at all using this detector. it is an excellent detector.
The All Met mode is used for gold field hunting and pin pointing everywhere else and disc is the primary search mode. You will find that disc mode gives better depth than the All Met mode and is more responsive to all small targets than All Met. All metal mode can at times give better operation where there is a lot of external electrical interference.
with iron mask on you will definately miss small gold jewelery items and gold nuggets.
In disc mode small gold items can give a gold tone the same as any discriminator mode on any detector. So if you are using the sov in a high iron trash area it is up to you to decide whether to dig certain iron tone sigs. As far as slow recovery on the sov is concerned, yes it is a tad slow but if you have multiple targets near to each other the disc mode will either average the target conductivity or give multiple tones depending on the target separation, in this case select All Metal turn the sensitivity down and you will be able to pinpoint each target and if you cannot, then dig a couple out but recheck the target area in disc mode after each item is removed. Either way I think you will find that the sov will find more targets than the cz.
Just my opinion, I am a bit biased towards the sov because mine has served me so well.

Cheers
Adrian SS

 

[Jager]

Thanks for the info.
I am a true Die hard Minelab fan, but when it comes down to the bottom line I want a machine that preforms when I need it, I don't care what brand it is.

I had the sovereign out today for some field tests. I placed a dime 6 inches away from a square nail and it did not detect the dime, no matter how slow I swung the coil. At 8 inches away it did see the dime. There is no way to turn off the iron mask, either you have it in all metal mode which makes the same tone for both the nail and dime so you can't tell what is what or you have it in disc mode which automatically turns on the iron mask which in turn washes out the dime if it is within 6" or closer to an iron nail, but at 8" will have a nice tone on the dime and nothing on the nail.
With the 3D, in all metal mode you get 2 tones, one for the nail and one for the dime but it's iffy, prob wouldn't dig it.

The biggest thing here I think is coil size. If I have used a 5" coil on the Sovereign I have no doubt it would have separated the dime from the nail and this goes with any detector. If the area is really trashy, a large (stock) coil on any machine would have trouble telling you what is going on from one object to another. Last year I found 4 Chinese coins amongst nail strewn trash with the 3D, BUT I was using a 5" coil, I think the Sovereign with a 5" coil would have done the same thing.

There are advantages and disadvantages for both machines, like any other detector.

I think the Sovereign handles mineralization better than the 3D and goes deeper for sure, but the 3D having 4 tones in the all metal mode and a depth meter is a definite plus, but from what I understand finding a good Fisher is a crap shoot, some machines are good, some are not, Minelab is a different story.

 

[therover]

Jager,

Not sure what you mean when you state all metal mode on the CZ3D, but in true all metal mode (ie, when the discrimination setting is in auto tune) there isn't 4 tones...it is a threshold type warble that sounds off on targets with a VCO type squeal. This setting works the same for all CZ's. In addition, there isn't any meter reading in autotune. This is also the mode you use when ground balancing the unit ( which is very important on a CZ for optimal performance and minimal falsing).

If you are talking about the unit in discrimination setting 0, then that is where all 4 tones will be heard...iron being the lowest tone.

CZ's have a linear discrimination line, and do not lose depth when moving up the scale. The best way to run any CZ in the discrimination mode is to set it at 0 and listen to ALL targets. You will not get fooled by the iron tone wrap that occurs when some iron id's as low tone then high. If you eliminate the low tone by using disrimination setting 1 or higher, you will not hear the low tone, only the high tone, and think it is a good target. Also, there are ways to ID iron with a CZ...you just have to learn the machine.

I have been using CZ's since the early 90's and still think they are one of the best units around. I had a CZ3D and it was a great unit, but I mostly beach hunt with my CZ20 and 6a so since I did not utilize the 3D's feature for older sites, I sold it. The CZ will go toe to toe with any VLF unit out there. As far as some units being hotter than others...this may be true. All I know is, I have 2 hot CZ6a's and a original CZ20 that work as good as the day I got them.

 

[Jager]

Thanks for the post.
You are right, now that you mention it, I did operate the 3D in Disc mode set to 0 so I had four tones to listen to.

 

[therover]

Jager,

You have a great unit in the CZ3D. Just hunt in discrimination setting 0 and LISTEN to all the targets and learn the machine. You will begin to ID iron that 'fools' the machine a lot easier if you have it set at 0.

Also, don't use enhanced mode in trashy areas...it will ID far too many pieces of trash as high tone. That mode is specifically tuned for older areas where old coins may be found and less modern trash is in the ground.

If you do decided to hunt trashy parks, get the small 5 inch coil...it's a great coil for that application.

 

[LuckyLarry]

I've owned the Sov E Pro and still own the digital version of the cz3d. The Sov is a whole lot slower than the cz3d. I've owned them both and I got tired of the &*&%$#$ Sovereign nulling out over iron or pulltabs and then passing right over the top of a good target.

The 10" coil on a cz3d will go deeper than the Sov with it's 10 incher, by about 20%, otherwise they get the same depth - the cz with a smaller coil. The 8" coil on the cz does a little better and goes a little deeper on salt beaches too.

I sold the Sov Elite and was glad to get rid of that heavy piece of junk.

Hope this is of interest.

 

[Willy]

I really wanted ML BBS to work for me (had 4 detectors, starting with the original Sov. and ending with a GT) and found their claims to be more BS. Did side-by-side testing using a number of detectors and, in my ground, the Sov. fell flat. I even had a CZ6a and found a whole load of gold nuggets with it in AK.. wouldn't even consider using a Sov. for that. ..Willy.

 

[Adrian SS]

I've owned the Sov E Pro and still own the digital version of the cz3d. The Sov is a whole lot slower than the cz3d. I've owned them both and I got tired of the &*&%$#$ Sovereign nulling out over iron or pulltabs and then passing right over the top of a good target.

The 10" coil on a cz3d will go deeper than the Sov with it's 10 incher, by about 20%, otherwise they get the same depth - the cz with a smaller coil. The 8" coil on the cz does a little better and goes a little deeper on salt beaches too.

I sold the Sov Elite and was glad to get rid of that heavy piece of junk.

Hope this is of interest.


HMMM, only just noticed this post.
Mate if your elite nulled out on a pull tab you must have had the disc cranked up abpve 7 or you had the PT notched out because there is no way that the machine will null out a PT in Iron Mask if the machine is working correctly.
I can set my SOV to disc out iron foil and just touching nickle and it will still sound of on Ptabs.
Granted I have had my machine for 12 or so years and know it very well. I seldom take the WOT coil off now and use the machine in all types of locations with great success. I can run the big coil right up to the playground uprights and find coins within a couple of inches of the posts (using All Metal at reduced sens). I guess it is the same with any detector; Get to know it well and it will talk to you, even if it's a Dick Smith special.

Adrian ss

 

[LuckyLarry]

No Adrian, my Sov was running as well as it should run, and I was using the bare minimum of discrimination too. It doesn't matter one way or another because high iron beats the Sovs like they're a hated redheaded stepchild. I don't use pull-tab discrimination settings unless the ground is loaded with them, I'm old school and prefer listening to the sounds instead, and I hardly ever dial in more than iron mask or iron discrimination - because it always fools every detector ever made, regardless of which brand, which price, or which model. When I sold my Sovereign the chap that bought it from me was very pleased at how well it worked, but he lived in a milder soil area in the deep South USA where they have only half the iron (magnetite, hematite) content in it. So be it.

If there was something wrong inside the Sov I'd simply open it up and repair or modify it, but that is/was not the case.

The problem with most of the prior arm-weary Minelabs is that they don't operate in (HIGH) Fe soils well at all. I have seen only 3 Minelabs used in Oregon in the last 30 years and most detectors seen here are either White's 1st, Fishers, 2nd, and then cheap Bounty Hunters 3rd. I haven't seen a Garrett used here in the last 20+ years, because they get horrible depth in this soil. Most Minelabs excel in salt beach soils - but because of the really slow recover time of their older processors the @^*+@$ things are not inherently capable of handling so much, so quickly. A single freq detector does better in our western USA soils than a multi-freq one does - whenever swung quickly. In fact, it's a lot like a train with too great of a load vs one with a light load, the unloaded one simply goes uphill a lot easier and a whole lot quicker than the one with all the stuff on it.

I may have neglected to say that I live in the western USA where the soils are straight out the depths of Hades! I have much better luck with them here when covering 2 feet or less in each swing or in wood chips or sawdust, but if I had to go that slow and only hunt there.. I'd rather be wrestling bears - so that my life had more meaning, less cursing, and less boredom.

The rule of thumb for the older Minelab circuits is that they work well for some things, especially salt beaches, but in the really harsh soils or high junk they suck! The later ones are much better now though.

Larry

 

[Willy]

It's funny how upset some people get when I point out how badly the BBS detectors do where I live 'n hunt (North of you and in, I think, even worse ground). According to some, I just gotta be lying (even though I did in-ground tests) 'cause the BBS machines are the bestest detectors in the whole wide world and using one will solve world hunger and bring peace to all. ..Willy.

 

[LuckyLarry]

Yes Willy, exactamento!

I remember one guy who thought his Minelab SE walked on water, it being able to find a clad quarter at "43" in red clay dirt", so I didn't bother asking if it did his taxes too, because I already knew it did.

This the very reason I reason instead of voicing my opinions on here. Otherwise I'd nestle myself into brand loyalty and slap the blinders on and enjoy the show along with those others who also think that the Jerry Springer Show was for real and not fake at all. I even had one woman cover her ears when I told her that Jerry Springer said it was all acted. She just plain didn't want to hear that noise.

And we REALLY think we are at the top of the food chain? Sometimes it appears that we are being had for lunch.

Larry

 

[Keppy]

Yes Willy, exactamento!

I remember one guy who thought his Minelab SE walked on water, it being able to find a clad quarter at "43" in red clay dirt", so I didn't bother asking if it did his taxes too, because I already knew it did.

This the very reason I reason instead of voicing my opinions on here. Otherwise I'd nestle myself into brand loyalty and slap the blinders on and enjoy the show along with those others who also think that the Jerry Springer Show was for real and not fake at all. I even had one woman cover her ears when I told her that Jerry Springer said it was all acted. She just plain didn't want to hear that noise.

And we REALLY think we are at the top of the food chain? Sometimes it appears that we are being had for lunch.

Larry

Easy , Have you give the AT Pro a try yet if so what is thoughts on it ? I just sold my sovereign ...And i will agree with you on the Sovereign.. Took me a long time to figure out that it was not doing the job i wanted... Got the AT now and looking at a Fishers. For a second detector.

 

[LuckyLarry]

Keppy between you and I and the fencepost, I don't find a whole lot of difference between much of anything out there nowadays.

In hard iron soil singles tend to go deeper than multi-freqs and multi-freqs discriminate a bit better. I have spoken with others who recently bought the At Pro but I don't have the urge myself - because it doesn't strike me as something that matches a Nexus, regardless of what soil it's used in. I've viewed air test videos and a 1/2" difference between equal money Minelabs, Garrets, Fishers, and others doesn't make me want to run right out and buy any of them. There are complaints like I've never seen before - with quality control problems in all but Nautilus, Whites, and Tesoro, and really BIG variances between one "identical detector" and it's brother in all the OTHER brands, including Nexus.

The At Pro sounds to me like a cz5 buzzing, an Ace 250 bonging, and a Minelab Sovereign switching tones, trying to decide what it wants to call a target, all in the same box. Other than that I think it's an alright detector but it doesn't appear to be a depth demon. My old cz70 is waterproof, matches or beats the At Pro for depth, works better on salt beaches, and has a light too, so it does me well for the time being. If I want to relic hunt or find stud earrings I grab my Compass. The Fisher fills the middle zone and the Compass does the deep big stuff and tiny nuggets too. The new Minelabs, Teknetics and Fishers aren't depth demons, but the AT Pro does beat the GTI 2500 by a couple of inches. My old Compass R&C beats both the AT and the 2500 and a Tejon gets an extra 2" air depth, although it really sucks in high iron soil or high iron trash.

Play with it for awhile and maybe we can get a surprise in something else later on. As for me the At Pro is a bit too much like all the generic engineering going in the car and detector world today, not any better, just different.







Larry

 

[Keppy]

Easy lucky.. You are right they all are about the same.. But you can not tell a lot of them that..... They think there brand was made by God...... Well easy i always enjoy your post's you come up with fact's........ I don't know were some come up with there ideas on these detectors ? I guess brand crazy... No logical explanation for what they say............. But they think there is or why would they say it ? I always say that the difference between all the detectors today is not that noticeable. But they listen with a deaf ear.................

 

[Willee]

Can I chime in here ... Please ...

Today's detectors are the same in respect they are designed to detect metal and make a sound when they do.

The way they report what they detect and sometimes how well they can detect in a given soil is what is so different.
Different strokes for different folks and the trick is to find a detector that works well in the ground you hunt in and sounds the way you like it to sound.
Air testing any detector is meaningless and a total waste of time unless you are just trying to prove it works or to see if you like the way the detector sounds and responds.
It will tell you nothing about the true depth abaility or the VID of targets in the ground.
The ground itself presents too many variables for air testing to have any validity.
Target orientation, depth, proximity of other metals, soil mineralization, your sweep speed, and other factors all add up to how the detector responds in the field and air testing just dont even come close to simulating any of that.

I have use just about every detector made (under $2000) in the last 20 years and what I think is the nuts are the Minelab Excalibur II for water and the Fisher F-75 SE for land and beach hunting.
(dont do the relic thing)
Yet ... I also have high regard and enjoy using the AT Pro, any CZ machine, any BBS or FBS Minelab, and other detectors I have.
It is not always about detecting the deepest target possible.

To each his own and I respect others choice and preference as to the detectors they like and use.
My only real bias is toward all quality American made detectors and one exception ... Minelab.

Just my humble opinion ... for what it is worth.

Willee

 

[Willee]

I really wanted ML BBS to work for me (had 4 detectors, starting with the original Sov. and ending with a GT) and found their claims to be more BS. Did side-by-side testing using a number of detectors and, in my ground, the Sov. fell flat. I even had a CZ6a and found a whole load of gold nuggets with it in AK.. wouldn't even consider using a Sov. for that. ..Willy.

If I found a "load" of gold nuggets in AK ... I would be back out there with the most expensive Minelab gold detector they make. Why spend the time walking over gold using a piece of equipment that is less than the best?
If you depend on you equipment to find the gold for you why would anyone want anything but the best?

(making the assumption that the Minelab SD 5000 is the best gold detector)

Willee

 

[Keppy]

I really wanted ML BBS to work for me (had 4 detectors, starting with the original Sov. and ending with a GT) and found their claims to be more BS. Did side-by-side testing using a number of detectors and, in my ground, the Sov. fell flat. I even had a CZ6a and found a whole load of gold nuggets with it in AK.. wouldn't even consider using a Sov. for that. ..Willy.

If I found a "load" of gold nuggets in AK ... I would be back out there with the most expensive Minelab gold detector they make. Why spend the time walking over gold using a piece of equipment that is less than the best?
If you depend on you equipment to find the gold for you why would anyone want anything but the best?

(making the assumption that the Minelab SD 5000 is the best gold detector)

Willee

Willee, .. Now as NASA Tom Dankowski.... Put it in his forum " I really like NASA Tom's forum "..... He said ...Never assume 'more dollars' automatically equates to " Better performance "........

 

[LuckyLarry]

Well folks, as many of you knew from my earlier posts as EasyMoney that I'm not fooled easily by brand loyal chit-chatters and whopper-tellers. I put my money where my mouth is so... I prefer lower-end Tesoros, some White's, most Fishers, many of the old Compasses, zero Bounty Hunters, a couple of Garretts, plus Minelab PI's (NOT BBS) and Nautiluses - but only in certain situations. Newer Teknetics don't have a good track record yet so no comments. The aforementioned are where I would care to use my hard-earned electronics engineering background knowledge... AND my hard-earned money. Whites outsells every other brand of detector made and Garrett sells more security detectors than all the others, and when I worked in engineering and the designing of detectors (no brand name will be given) Whites has been the most problem-free of all brands, period.

Willee according to George Payne (Teknetics Electronics), Jack Gifford of Tesoro Electronics (and other engineers and techs too) the best way to prejudge a detector's depth potential is to do an air test. I agree. But it's only a guide. The radiating magnetic field of a detector can only create a pattern a certain size, regardless of how the circuitry is designed or how the coil is wound, because there are Federal limitations as to how far and how powerful and to what frequency electronics devices can be used or sold new. It is basically Ohm's Law put into play when it comes to detectors, and not much more than a magnetic field when it comes to coils.

I have no brand preference but I am partial to those with the fewest of inherent problems and those that work best in overall situations, those brands being the ones that everyone already knows about. And no, those detectors aren't Minelabs or Fishers either. Right now it is clear that most detector companies are lacking in not just good quality control, they are also clinging to so much antiquated electronics engineering designs - with a bit of experimentation tossed in - that it's not even a good time to consider buying ANY of them right now. The industry is at a near standstill when it comes to innovation and change. Sound familiar?

I see the Minelab brand of detectors as not really much different than any of the other brands, save for some older ones being some really heavy Mothers. But their powerhouse PI's do VERY WELL on larger nuggets, but one Garrett does well too, and so does one Whites, it designed by Erik Foster. The really tiny nuggets are found more easily though by those Fishers designed purely for nugget hunting. We all now that too, and all we have to do is type in GoldBug vs..(?) and we can see them outshining all the others, on video! The only thing even close to the Goldbugs for little nuggets are the Compass GoldScanner Pro, Relic & Coin (both the same detector but with a different name tag designed to sell them as relic machines.), and the Whites GMT, although maybe the GMT not (quite) as good.

And no, I do not prefer Fisher brand over any other brand, nor Whites, nor Compass. The old Compasses do very well at deep AND tiny 1-2 gr targets depending on which coil one uses, and they handle bad ground as well as the old Cadillac-operating CZ's. Minelab and Garrett can't claim that because it just doesn't happen. Even White's cant match them for good (small) nugget hunting, although they do get close.

Like always, I basically do not post my opinions on here because opinions cause quarrels among narrow-minded and biased people. I prefer truth over whoppers and opinions... ANY day!

HH all!

Larry