Spanish Artifact ? Help to Identify Needed

[dnyman]

I was raised in Price Utah and I have had an item in my possession for 50 years that I would like to identify. I think it might be Spanish, but I don't have much information on the item other than what I remember. I recall my father bringing it home and said someone found it in the desert. Where I don't know, but somewhere around the Price area. The Spanish Trail is just south of Price.
It is not ferrous metal (magnet test). I think it is a low grade silver. It appears to be hand made and ornamental. I think this was a piece of something that broke off. The red ball is a glass bead with a dark blue enameled cap on either side. I can send more pictures (better detail) is anyone is interested
I have attached a couple of pictures. If you know of anyone who could help identify this I would appreciate a email address.

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

If you'd said you had it 40 years I'd guess someone dropped the better part of a fancy handcrafted roach clip. It's interesting and I hope it gets identified.

 

[dnyman]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

The only reason I think it is European rather than Native Americal is the Blue enameling. It looks like a glass coating that is dark blue is covering the two caps on both sides of the red bead. Does anyone know how to evaluated the metal to know if it is silver and if it is the right alloys to be European?

 

[dnyman]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

johnnyi, Thanks for your input. I really appreciate any info and feedback to help me identify this. Let me clarify

Found in the desert... True, but the Spanish could have dropped something in the desert. Spanish trail is 20 miles away.
Found where Navajo and Hopi reside .. I'm not sure if the Navajo were that far North. Mostly Ute and Fremont
Use of red coral in jewelry making (not typical of european spanish).. The red is a glass bead not coral
Use of 'Indian Silver' (coin silver).. That was my last question. How to determine if the silver alloy is European.
Traditional Navajo/Hopi jewlery formwork.. I'm no expert, but this does not look Native American to me.
Looks to contain inlaid polished turquous stones .. No turquoise was used, the blue is a glass enamel over silver I think.

This very well might be Native American, but I'm not convinced.
Thanks Again.

 

[crankyolman22]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

My wife would like to put her 2 cents worth in. "I think this is part of a horses bridle or driving bit, in my humble opinion most probably Spanish rather than Native American" http://www.nhequestrians.com/100909bit.jpg

 

[Bramblefind]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

My wife would like to put her 2 cents worth in. "I think this is part of a horses bridle or driving bit, in my humble opinion most probably Spanish rather than Native American" http://www.nhequestrians.com/100909bit.jpg

She just might have called it. Here are some more ornate examples -

What is the size of the object?

http://www.outwestsaddlery.com/html/bits.html

 

[Bramblefind]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

Some more info-

from: http://books.google.com/books?id=eA...onepage&q=century spanish snaffle bit&f=false

 

[Bramblefind]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

I might have contradicted myself with that one. Would the design of the examples I posted place the red bead portion in the horse's mouth? I am probably wrong it that is the case.

 

[Tony in SC]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

What are the measurements?? Hard to tell just by the pics. Tony

 

[ole_grisley]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

WOW I could swear I saw some girl downtown the other day that had the mate to that and she wore it as a ear ring or was I seeing things lol

 

[dnyman]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

Thanks everyone for the input. I think the horse bit is the best I've heard so far. As far as the size, for some reason the picture that is showing is leaving off a ruler on the right side. I can see it if I click on the picture title at the bottom of the picture or you can download a copy from the following link.

http://home.comcast.net/~dnyman2/pwpimages/what is this 3.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~dnyman2/pwpimages/what is this 4.jpg

I have also received some feedback from an archeologist that also suggested the horse bit.
"I think this may be part of a horse bit or bridle. The closest item I can match it too is from the 1902 Sears catalogue where the item is called “Fine Nickel Spanish Bit. Made with swivel ring saber bent cheek medium high port and curb chain, ornamented check. Nickel plated only. Price each 59 C (cent).” That is the best I can do without seeing the object or knowing the provenience. I do think it has something to do with horse and it is historic but not early Spanish. Second thought is a watch fob. That’s the best I can do."

Does anyone know where I could find a copy of the 1902 sears catalog online?
Does anyone know of a test for silver other than the magnet?
Thanks again for everyone's efforts to help me identify this. Its been bugging me for fifty years.

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

Personally I don't see any possible way that could be a horse's bit, despite an archeologist saying otherwise. The metal is a thin (weak) 1/8 inch thick under the wrapping for one thing. For another the outside "loop" (of what I presume is a half a bit (?)) is not at all right for reins, (particularly with that opening) and there is no spot on it for the reins to favor (unlike all other bits we know of) , for another, the decorative portion is invisible in the horse's mouth, it's set with a glass bead which I doubt would fair very well if the horse happened to chomp down while it was being placed in his mouth, the wire wrapping would serve no purpose other than chafe the corners of the horse's mouth eventually (should be smooth as all bits are) etc..

 

[traderoftreasures]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

The top hook has the appearance of being heated and bent, but is that solder i see on the bottom smaller hook?

 

[dnyman]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

The top hook has the appearance of being heated and bent, but is that solder i see on the bottom smaller hook?

Tradersoftreasures,
The bottom is made from a wire that comes through the red bead and is wrapped around. It ends just below the bottom cap below the red bead. Hope I described this well enough for you to visualize. I realize the 2D pictures are hard to get a good mental image.

 

[La Beep]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

early bottle opener

History
Painter invented the world's first bottle cap in 1891. It was constructed with a corrugated metal cap, a thin disk of cork, and a paper backing. This was an economical design that made the cap leakproof. This cap was meant to be used only once and required a bottle cap opener to pop it off. To make the bottle cap work even better, Painter worked alongside bottling manufacturers to develop a bottle to go with the cap. He also patented the machinery necessary to manufacture the bottle cap. In 1892, Painter patented the bottle cap design (US patent number 468,258), and started the Bottle Seal Company, which was later renamed the Crown Cork and Seal Company. Today, the company's official name is Crown Holdings. The screw-on cap was invented in 1856. Until 1915, beer bottles generally had a wire-attached mechanical cap. An increase in glass bottle production during the early 20th century increased the demand and usage of bottle caps. By nearly 20 years later, most beer and soft drink bottles had bottle caps.

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? found in Utah

dnyman, are you absolutely sure that you've had this in your possession for a full fifty years or was that a general guess? An error of several years less could make a huge difference it terms of possibilities.

 

[dnyman]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? Help to Identify

jonnyi,
The time I've had this in my possession is an estimate. I can't recall exact dates, but it is between 45-50 years. What do you have that makes this date critical?
Thanks,

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Spanish Artifact ? Help to Identify

jonnyi,
The time I've had this in my possession is an estimate. I can't recall exact dates, but it is between 45-50 years. What do you have that makes this date critical?
Thanks,

Thanks. the reason I asked was that I was only half joking whe I first suggested the better part of a roach clip. "45 years" places this object within the rhealm of possibility, as the early 60's is when some of the more "jewelry" appearing ones were manufactured. As well, the location is curious, as although your town wasn't known necessarily as a haven for the counter-culture then, it is today and it was certainly "appreciated" then..

p.s. still trying to research the "counter culture" angle on this thing... there was a guy named Gary Bennet who founded a studio in the early 60's where he manufactured clips. http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache...he+first+roach+clips&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Further googlng of the guy shows he worked with silver and glass. Still can't find illustrations of his early work.

 

[dnyman]

Jonnyi,
You are right about this being used as a clip, but it was years after my Father found it. We moved away from the area in 1966 or so. By the way, it didn't make a very good clip.

 

[johnnyi]

Jonnyi,
You are right about this being used as a clip, but it was years after my Father found it. We moved away from the area in 1966 or so. By the way, it didn't make a very good clip.

Ha! good enough! "Thanks for sharing" I was in the "class of '68" myself, so be assured we "understand each other. " Yes, the fact that you used it as a clip is intersting, but it doesn't necessarily mean it was not used as one before you found it. Of course it would be only the "handle" and the actual "clip" is gone. Incidently I was reading about the history of clips from the very early 60's, and as early as '63 the jewelry-like ones were often disguised with the "clip" part hidden so as not to alert the 'fuzz' (morphed to "narcs" in our day). (Hey, you're not a narc are you? Ha! Ha! ....memories!) Anyway, that fact would lead to the assumption that more obvious clips existed before '63, and your's might be one. If it is, it would no doubt be very collectable.