Superstition Toponymy with Prof. Aubrey Drury

[somehiker]

These are also among some of my favorites.....

 

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[Hal Croves]

"after looking through our records and speaking with colleagues we have no record of the Profile or any history of this mountain."

Forest Officials response to my questions on Geronimo Head, the Profile and mountain.

 

[somehiker]

"after looking through our records and speaking with colleagues we have no record of the Profile or any history of this mountain."

Forest Officials response to my questions on Geronimo Head, the Profile and mountain.

What about other topographic features visible from the Apache Trail that Drury did give original names to, Hal ?
Seems like a dead end, research wise.
I didn't see anything else in the links you provided.

 

[Hal Croves]

What about other topographic features visible from the Apache Trail that Drury did give original names to, Hal ?
Seems like a dead end, research wise.
I didn't see anything else in the links you provided.

I think that I have convinced myself that the name was in use before Drury's work.
Which means that the name Geronimo was given by locals.
Why is what fascinates me.

I will keep digging and move on to the next feature.
I am an extremely slow reader.

Is there a forum about Waltz, details about the man? I just found some info on him but don't want to post it in this forum.
I think that we may have the name of the ship and date that he took to the USA and his date of naturalization... it may also already be known.

Interesting is the time between his arrival in NY and his settling in Phoenix as a farmer.

 

[somehiker]

I think that I have convinced myself that the name was in use before Drury's work.
Which means that the name Geronimo was given by locals.
Why is what fascinates me.

I will keep digging and move on to the next feature.
I am an extremely slow reader.

Is there a forum about Waltz, details about the man? I just found some info on him but don't want to post it in this forum.
I think that we may have the name of the ship and date that he took to the USA and his date of naturalization... it may also already be known.

Interesting is the time between his arrival in NY and his settling in Phoenix as a farmer.

I suspect most of the major landmarks had been named by locals....prospectors and cattlemen mostly....but also army personnel and even Indian scouts (in their own languages originally) from the 1860's into the early 1900's, well before #88 and the Roosevelt Dam were constructed and Drury and the Southern Pacific Railroad Co. entered the picture with their tourist brochure and map .

There are tons of threads containing info about Waltz on this and the other two sites.
More, if you google the name or "Lost Dutchman Mine", including his post immigration travels and previous prospecting and mining history.
Although it takes some reading and logical thinking to sort the truth from the fiction in some cases.
Quite a few have done that already IMO.

 

[Hal Croves]

"I suspect most of the major landmarks had been named by locals....prospectors and cattlemen mostly....but also army personnel and even Indian scouts (in their own languages originally) from the 1860's into the early 1900's, well before #88 and the Roosevelt Dam were constructed and Drury and the Southern Pacific Railroad Co. entered the picture with their tourist brochure and map."

I think that you nailed it.
Which gets to the heart of this forum or its purpose.
Before he died, Waltz should have been able to communicate using location names. Geronimo Head may not have been one of them.
Only a guess but it should have been named sometime between 1909 - 1917.

Here, Superstition Mountain is known/used publicly in 1874.

"Lieutenants Ward and Poillon with their command were at Florence on the 25th, preparing to scout Superstition Mountain"

The Citizen
28 March 1874

 

[Hal Croves]

Not Drury's work but still fascinating.

Superstition Mountain
The Oasis
10 August 1893


"We have often been asked about the origin of the name of the mountain: whether because of its rugged grandeur, its castellated domes and aspiring turrets, cut and furrowed, and abraded and corrugated by beating storms of the past ages, or weather from the fact as prospectors tell us that when heavy winds blow against the south and east sides of the mountain, the terrified listener hears the most piercing and heart-rending and unearthly shrieks and howling and discordant admixtures of soul-piercing sounds proceeding from out the caves and caverns, inaccessible crevices of the mountain.

We have been at some pains recently to ascertain as much the origin of the name as possible an in furtherance of this object we interviewed one of the old sub-chiefs of the Pimas who officiates as medicine man and carries the tradition of his tribe written upon memory's tablet to be transmitted to his successor."...

 

[somehiker]

Not Drury's work but still fascinating.

Superstition Mountain
The Oasis
10 August 1893


"We have often been asked about the origin of the name of the mountain: whether because of its rugged grandeur, its castellated domes and aspiring turrets, cut and furrowed, and abraded and corrugated by beating storms of the past ages, or weather from the fact as prospectors tell us that when heavy winds blow against the south and east sides of the mountain, the terrified listener hears the most piercing and heart-rending and unearthly shrieks and howling and discordant admixtures of soul-piercing sounds proceeding from out the caves and caverns, inaccessible crevices of the mountain.

We have been at some pains recently to ascertain as much the origin of the name as possible an in furtherance of this object we interviewed one of the old sub-chiefs of the Pimas who officiates as medicine man and carries the tradition of his tribe written upon memory's tablet to be transmitted to his successor."...

link.....https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85032933/1893-08-10/ed-1/seq-3/

the rest of the story :

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I think that I have convinced myself that the name was in use before Drury's work.
Which means that the name Geronimo was given by locals.
Why is what fascinates me.

I will keep digging and move on to the next feature.
I am an extremely slow reader.

Is there a forum about Waltz, details about the man? I just found some info on him but don't want to post it in this forum.
I think that we may have the name of the ship and date that he took to the USA and his date of naturalization... it may also already be known.

Interesting is the time between his arrival in NY and his settling in Phoenix as a farmer.

Hi Victor,

Was the ship the Ville de Lyon, docking in NY on 13 JUL 1839? Jacob Waltz, 28 yrs old, a farmer, from Wurttemberg?

Thomas Glover's new book has details of Dr. Oertel's research into Jacob Waltz's background, his family in Germany, where their farm was, etc. I found it rather refreshing to hear from an actual German genealogist on the subject.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hi Victor,

Was the ship the Ville de Lyon, docking in NY on 13 JUL 1839? Jacob Waltz, 28 yrs old, a farmer, from Wurttemberg?

Thomas Glover's new book has details of Dr. Oertel's research into Jacob Waltz's background, his family in Germany, where their farm was, etc. I found it rather refreshing to hear from an actual German genealogist on the subject.

The birth-year is off by one year if Waltz was born in 1810, still is closer than any of others on the list of arrivals.
Nille de Lyon 1839 but Nille may be a type-o.

Much longer than I had thought.
It would have been difficult to avoid the 1861 - 1865 war as a 51 year old.

Did Dr. Glovers mention Waltz's date of Naturalization - 19 July 1861 Los Angeles Cal? Four months into the war.

"Even though Southern California was part of a free Union state, it had strong Confederate sympathies. These Confederate ties were due to the large number of Southerners who had transplanted to the Southern California region. This partiality was evident in the 1860 presidential election; Lincoln received only 25% of the Los Angeles vote."

"As early as July 1861, a group of Texans led by Confederate Lt. Colonel John Baylor had captured the southern half of Arizona Territory and named it the Confederate Territory of Arizona."

Confederate?

 

[Hal Croves]

Much easier than typing somehiker.
But that story is incredible.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The birth-year is off by one year if Waltz was born in 1810, still is closer than any of others on the list of arrivals.
Nille de Lyon 1839 but Nille may be a type-o.

Much longer than I had thought.
It would have been difficult to avoid the 1861 - 1865 war as a 51 year old.

Did Dr. Glovers mention Waltz's date of Naturalization - 19 July 1861 Los Angeles Cal? Four months into the war.

"Even though Southern California was part of a free Union state, it had strong Confederate sympathies. These Confederate ties were due to the large number of Southerners who had transplanted to the Southern California region. This partiality was evident in the 1860 presidential election; Lincoln received only 25% of the Los Angeles vote."

"As early as July 1861, a group of Texans led by Confederate Lt. Colonel John Baylor had captured the southern half of Arizona Territory and named it the Confederate Territory of Arizona."

Confederate?

Hi Victor,

Actually, the birth date lines up perfectly. Jacob Waltz's birth records in Germany list him as being born 2 NOV 1810, so he was still 28 yrs old on JUL 13, 1839. About 28 yrs 8 mos. old.

The family book in Germany also shows this particular Jacob Waltz, born on 2 NOV 1810, to have emigrated to America in 1839. Additional family records in Germany show that he was in Natchez, MS during the time he had made his naturalization application, and then later in CA when he was also known to be there.

Re: Confederate, Waltz was in CA when the war broke out. A union state. Not that there weren't Rebels in CA. Regarding Confederate Arizona, it consisted of the lower half of NM and AZ. The Bradshaws were still Union territory of NM. At any rate, AZ was brought back into the Union decisively while Waltz was in La Paz, and by the time he was in the Bradshaws in 1863, there was no question that the Prescott area was solidly Union.

My vote is that Waltz was never a Confederate, and based on looking at his known timeline, he never served in either military.

Take care, Jim

 

[Hal Croves]

Hi Victor,

Actually, the birth date lines up perfectly. Jacob Waltz's birth records in Germany list him as being born 2 NOV 1810, so he was still 28 yrs old on JUL 13, 1839. About 28 yrs 8 mos. old.

The family book in Germany also shows this particular Jacob Waltz, born on 2 NOV 1810, to have emigrated to America in 1839. Additional family records in Germany show that he was in Natchez, MS during the time he had made his naturalization application, and then later in CA when he was also known to be there.

Re: Confederate, Waltz was in CA when the war broke out. A union state. Not that there weren't Rebels in CA. Regarding Confederate Arizona, it consisted of the lower half of NM and AZ. The Bradshaws were still Union territory of NM. At any rate, AZ was brought back into the Union decisively while Waltz was in La Paz, and by the time he was in the Bradshaws in 1863, there was no question that the Prescott area was solidly Union.

My vote is that Waltz was never a Confederate, and based on looking at his known timeline, he never served in either military.

Take care, Jim

Amazing.
My only question is his 63' in the Bradshaw's. How do we know?
Dr. G Book?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Amazing.
My only question is his 63' in the Bradshaw's. How do we know?
Dr. G Book?

Yes, he does cover it in the book. But the most reliable item for 1863 would be the Gross Lode claim? Filed in 1863.

 

[Hal Croves]

Just read Matthews post on the Gross Lode claim.


I guess that I am revisiting old news trying to understand why academia never thought enough of the story to research it. "There are a few internet resources that talk about Geronimo Head, but mostly in the context of the Lost Dutchman’s gold, which is a story promoted by locals to increase tourism in the area."

FS

His quote doesn't paint a decent picture of the Dons and I think that it (his position) could be described as ignorant.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Just read Matthews post on the Gross Lode claim.


I guess that I am revisiting old news trying to understand why academia never thought enough of the story to research it. "There are a few internet resources that talk about Geronimo Head, but mostly in the context of the Lost Dutchman’s gold, which is a story promoted by locals to increase tourism in the area."

FS

His quote doesn't paint a decent picture of the Dons and I think that it (his position) could be described as ignorant.

Well....I hate to say it, but the Don's had a rather "eccentric" reputation among certain circles in Phoenix. Much of it had to do with their promotion of the LDM legend. I remember we would get the Dons Club flyers every year, either in the mail or on our door, I can't remember which...and my Mother promptly swept it into the "kitchen drawer of no return", the place things went never to be seen again...along with all the Green Stamps and Blue Stamps books she laboriously kept for years, but never redeemed for anything...I believe she would have been embarrassed if any of her friends had happened to see a Dons Club flyer in her household.

Whether that reputation was deserved or not...probably not...but I think their yearly articles in the newspaper about a mine most people thought was a folklore tale, the dressing up in costume, and such, perhaps they were viewed more as an eccentric fraternity? I hope I don't annoy anyone, just trying to provide a little "local"perspective. Now that I "know what I know", I certainly think the Dons are a great organization and as it turns out, they did us all a service by keeping the LDM stories alive and percolating.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

And before I get myself into TOO much trouble, we need to keep in mind that the Don's stated goals were to increase tourism, business, charity, and also history. The way they went about it years ago may have looked eccentric to an outsider, but they in fact did a lot of good, and never did anything harmful. I wish they still did the "Firefall", which was something everyone should see at least once! I don't think that would fly with the powers that be, this day and age.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Victor, this pic doesn't do it justice, but this is what the Dons firefall looked like. Pic from AZ Hwys Mag:

View attachment 1738544

 

[gollum]

Victor, this pic doesn't do it justice, but this is what the Dons firefall looked like. Pic from AZ Hwys Mag:

View attachment 1738544

The other day I was down at Wayne's (Tuttle) Office. I had heard they were forced to stop doing the Firefall by the BLM as a danger. I said that it was a stupid reason. They did the Firefall for fifty years with nothing bad happening. Wayne told me that BLM wasn't the problem. The reason they stopped was because it literally took about 100 Dons to put on the event. They had jewelry booths, arts and crafts, live plays, and all kinds of events. As the Dons started getting older, and young folks weren't joining the ranks, they got fewer and fewer people to help with the events. Eventually there weren't enough people to handle it, and everything stopped until Joe Ribaudo and a few others started it again in 2004 (I think). A couple of years later, Wayne and Randy took over.........and here we are.

Mike

 

[Hal Croves]

Ultimately, I believe that the Dons are going to be recognized by acidemia as keepers of lost history. I understand the eccentricity, their promotion of tourism and local ledgends, but to dismiss the Dons and those that follow their traditions outright is shortsighted.

Let me offer one example (a detail) of legend explained. It doesn’t belong in this thread and some of you will dismiss the importance of what I am sharing, but for those who are out there looking, this and paying attention to the ground beneath your feet might prove helpful.



The person who shared this with me isn’t interested in being identified, is closer culturally to those mentioned in this paragraph than most of us and is dedicated to the preservation of history.

Natural caliche cement isn’t impervious to weather and the extreme temperatures of the Superstitions. So, if this paragraph is true, some of this material would, over time, loosen, crack, chip, erode and eventually reveal the “stout logs” that it covered. Unless a bonding agent was added.

As it turns out, this bonding agent described to me as being similar to Elmer’s Glue, is made from fermented cactus. First thorns are removed and then the cactus gathered. It is chopped and placed into a container of water. That container is placed in direct sunlight for several days and the mixture left to ferment. It may also be boiled to speed up the process.

The chopped cactus and excess water is removed leaving behind “cactus juice”. It’s a thick, gooey material that once added to caliche makes it (the caliche) incredibly strong and resistant to the elements. How much cactus juice to caliche mix is determined by practice.

The recipe was apparently rediscovered by historians and published.

So what? Well, hopefully the next time you are in the field, searching, and you think that you are in a promising location, look at the area carefully. The layer of dirt and rock that was used to cover the caliche should have thinned or been washed away exposing this caliche cap. Look again, notice any rocks protruding from the material they rest on. It should look unnatural, like rocks stuck into and partially covered by cement.

Just how Storm gathered this information is another mystery, but I suspect that it came from a trusting native who inherited the story. It’s only an opinion but I think that this paragraph is the single most import clue available to those looking.