The area between the sidewalk and the road.....

[Ray S ECenFL]

There are lots of names for this area:

Swale
Public Easement
Verge
Berm
Curb Strip
Utility Easement
etc...
But whatever you call it, I would like to know your feelings on who owns it? In my area, the homeowners maintain it but do not own it. That area is owned by the county or the city.

Legally, you could hunt it because it is a public area, but in some cases you will get challenged by the homeowner that maintains it. I have hunted these areas and have not asked the homeowners permission simply because the homeowner does not own it. I hunted very early and did not spend a lot of time at any one location. I do not leave any traces that I was there.

Have any of you hunted these areas? Did you ask the homeowners permission?

I know there will be mixed feelings on this, but my question is not IF you were to do it, but HAVE you done it and how did you approach it?

Ray S ECenFL

 

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[MrPoptop]

I have done it.. both commercial and residential.
If some one comes out and asks you not then move on politely.
I have also had the cops called out too..
On commercial easement they simply ran my info and when I even volunteered to leave they said no.. continue as you please.
On residential easements I will skip down a few houses whatnot , but when one nosey neighbor lady called the cops all they did was see me and we nodded at each other.
They are aware of me and my metal detecting activities..
Stay neat and avoid confrontations..

 

[Keppy]

I have done it.. both commercial and residential.
If some one comes out and asks you not then move on politely.
I have also had the cops called out too..
On commercial easement they simply ran my info and when I even volunteered to leave they said no.. continue as you please.
On residential easements I will skip down a few houses whatnot , but when one nosey neighbor lady called the cops all they did was see me and we nodded at each other.
They are aware of me and my metal detecting activities..
Stay neat and avoid confrontations..

Looks like... Mrpoptop...gave you a good complete answer i have nothing to add............

 

[Sandman]

Ditto......

Granted the owner does not own this land, but idiots being what they are you could get shot. Besides this is what gives us all a bad name.

 

[Lowbatts]

Had very few bad experiences in the parkways. Most often people make friendly with you and you get the opportunity to seek deeper permissions for yards. Sometimes people even volunteer their yards w/o the question arising.

And like Mr Poptop, I've had the local LEO's roll up more than once and it's always been a wave-off with a few exceptions when they either curious as to finds or had suggestions on other sites.

Friendliest places I've hunted the parkways are also usually the "worst" part of town again with those few exceptions. Don't bother looking around too many public housing sites. Usually too many pulltabs and crown tops and screw caps to get anything decent.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

your legal analysis of them is correct. And thus, if the city doesn't have any specific ordinances forbidding detecting, and you're leaving no indication of your presence, then technically, you would be able to do it. However, pyschologically speaking, we're in an "odd hobby" that draws the stares of the curious, and does have "connotations" to busy-body lookie lous. So just like park hunting, you're going to need a little discretion. Go at off-times of the day (early mornings, or mid-day when people are at work, etc....). Don't go chasing deeper ones when people are right there in your front yard watching you, etc... And yes, if they object, you can tell them it's city-owned, but move on just to avoid confrontation.

And if "confrontation" alone (as some people here have pointed out occurs with parking strips) is some sort of reason to advise all md'rs not to do it, then it's going to come to the point, where you've got to ask yourself, if you've chosen the wrong hobby. After 35 yrs. of this, I've come to conclude that there is always a busy-body or whiner at some of the most innocuous and totaly legal places (the beach, etc...). And if those occurances make you skittish, then this is probably not the right hobby. It's bound to happen, so my tactic is, to just avoid those lookie-lous and go at odd-times. Heck, it's even gotten to where I actually just hunt parks at night now, for instance

 

[GringoStarr]

You should know I have worked the area in between the sidewalk and the curb. Generally it is legal, but if challenged it's best to move on. Like Tom_in_CA, said, timing is everything, and it's probably best to work these areas early in the morning or at night if it is legal in your area.

 

[TerryC]

This is a perennial (maybe monthly?) subject. Always a never-ending question. The BEST solution is to march up to the local jurisdiction's counter and get the real scoop... and a name to back it up. All the answers above make good sense but the local counterperson is the last word. TTC

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Terry, yes, it's a common question. But I digrees from your answer:

"The BEST solution is to march up to the local jurisdiction's counter and get the real scoop... and a name to back it up. All the answers above make good sense but the local counterperson is the last word."

Why can't a person look it up for themselves? Why do they have to ask a live counter person? If you can look it up in the city codes (usually available on-line at the city website, or on the counter for public viewing at city hall), and if it's silent on the issue, why would you need to ask a live person "can I?"

Because the problem with doing what you say, is you risk a "no", where no real rule exists. And if you try to object and say "... but where is that written?" guess who's going to loose that debate? They can just morph something st*pid like disturbing pg&e lines, or hurting earthworms. Or they can just say "because we would prefer you didn't" (as if you had been asking their permission, not whether or not there was a law against it).

 

[TORRERO]

Terry, yes, it's a common question. But I digrees from your answer:

"The BEST solution is to march up to the local jurisdiction's counter and get the real scoop... and a name to back it up. All the answers above make good sense but the local counterperson is the last word."

Why can't a person look it up for themselves? Why do they have to ask a live counter person? If you can look it up in the city codes (usually available on-line at the city website, or on the counter for public viewing at city hall), and if it's silent on the issue, why would you need to ask a live person "can I?"

Because the problem with doing what you say, is you risk a "no", where no real rule exists. And if you try to object and say "... but where is that written?" guess who's going to loose that debate? They can just morph something st*pid like disturbing pg&e lines, or hurting earthworms. Or they can just say "because we would prefer you didn't" (as if you had been asking their permission, not whether or not there was a law against it).

I agree with this, I was traveling in Georga one time and went through a small town that had a nice
city park beside an old courthouse. Maybe 3-4 acres of people around picnic tables and so forth..
Since the city people were at the courthouse, I figured I would ask, so I saw a highway patrol pull up
and asked him, he said he did not know, but go inside and ask...
long story short... I asked 3-4 different people there and no one seemed to know and it finaly came down to "ask the such and such person they are over this whole place" and of course they said
no.... and I wasted an hour trying to find out, when nobody there seemed to know or care.
If I has just hunted it, the most they would have done is run me off... but probably nothing since
no one seemed to know what to say....
all a bunch of BS and waste of my time...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

torrero, yes, it's the old "no one cares .......... UNTIL you ask" psychology.

Same thing happened in my city back in the mid 1980s: The city park here had just been routinely detected, since the dawn of detectors. It never occured to anyone you needed to "ask", as it had always just been detected, and no one had ever cared. But a newbie here, upon moving to our city, took it upon himself to go to city hall and ask "can I?" (afterall, you wouldn't want to "get arrested" would you? ) Someone there told him "no".

The newbie then shows up as a guest at our club meeting. When he saw someone at show & tell hold up something ".... found in central park", he raised his hand, and says "I thought it was illegal to detect in the park?". The rest of us just turned around, looked at him, and said "since when?" See how that works?

And the harm this causes, is that NOW that your "pressing" question is fresh in some city clerk's mind, guess what's going to happen the next time they see md'rs out there (whom they probably would never have noticed, nor paid mind to). They'll remember the inquiry and start booting others! Sheesk

 

[TerryC]

Hi Tom-in-CA, Good to connect again! It would be my opinion (opinion only) that many people asking have already run up against the mumbo-jumbo way some laws are HIDDEN in the books, difficult to find. Others are dismayed by the "legalese" they get if they even CAN find the wordage. Some are looking for a "buddy" to do the legwork, taking the onerisim off their shoulders... and.... some just get lazy. Sorry, I'm not at all trying to be critical of anyone but I have (with my best MLK Jr voice) "Been to the countertop!" I have never been given the cold shoulder. Always got the right scoop.... even if it was not the hoped for results. Stay thirsty, my friend. TTC

 

[Sandman]

Tom you are entirely correct in nobody cares until someone asks. You don't go to a park and ask if it is allowed for you to toss a Frisbee or what ever.

 

[Bart@Big Boys Hobbies]

Always use a screw driver or a lesche. Never a shovel. Everyone always freaks out on a shovel!

 

[Parisdakarbmw]

As a police officer, I've had several suspicious person calls that were detecting. The police really have no interest in messing with a guy doing his hobby, and not bothering anyone. I usually walk over, and explain that someone had called, and didn't know what they were doing. (post 9-11 everyone is suspicious, and everyone has a cell phone) Mainly when the person is hunched over digging, people assume the detector is an assault rifle.....People imagine all kinds of stuff.

Seriously there are some real things to consider. If you take anything from someone's property it could be considered theft. Just because people don't know it's there doesn't mean you can take it. Loitering, and prowling could also fit if a property owner wanted to force the issue. Always better to ask for private property if you can find the owner (local tax assesors website)

I would wait to search any county/ government areas until a 3 day holiday weekend. Nobody is there, and nobody cares. I wouldn't go to the front lawn of the court house on a saturday digging plugs out of the sod. My luck a judge would be sitting in their office reading the law for criminal tresspass to property statutes, and there I am ripping up the lawn.

My thing is to write the private property owners a letter, and mail it with a self addressed stamped envelope. Most say it's ok, and mail it back. I keep those letters with me, and love to listen to a nosy neighbor tell me I can't be there. Once they tell me who they know, and act like they own the land themselves, I politely shake their hand, and show them the letter. Never get upset, and just be polite. Most people like to watch. Some people will get mad if you smile the wrong way.

Funny story. I was working as the school resource officer at a local middle school. I was about to get into my patrol car when my radio sounded. The secretary at the school said a suspicious man was on the football field. I jumped in my patrol car, and rode around to the back side of the building. To my amazement 4 men were behind the school. One already flying a gas powered helocopter. Another was airborne with his little air plane, and the other two were fueling up. I explained that the school was full of children, and half of them were glued to the windows watching. They were politely asked to leave, and I explained that they were more than welcome to come back after school hours. I walked towards my car, and the guy with the helocopter kept flying, and said he wasn't leaving because it didn't have a sign.......... Uhhhhhhh....What? I walked over to him and explained that it would be hard to land the helocopter while he's handcuffed. He cursed a little, and took his sweet time landing the thing. If I had not been interested in the hobby, that guy would have taken a ride. It's all about the attitude

 

[Tom_in_CA]

parisdakarbmw, it's not easy being a cop, so you have my utmost respect.

As regards to your post here: This thread, in context, is the sidewalk strip between the sidewalk, and the street, right? Yet repeatedly in your text, you refer to it as it were not public property. For example, that it might be considered "theft" because it was on "someone's property", etc.... But isn't that the whole point of the thread though, that this is public property, so there is no "trespassing" or "property owner's permission" and such at stake here, right? I mean sure: we'd all agree there's a little common sense and discretion at stake here (since afterall it's right up against people's lawns, and they do mow it afterall ). But strictly speaking, it's not "private property" as you allude to in your paragraph 4, etc... Unless I'm mis-understanding you, and you're changing the subject to something else.

And as for courthouse lawns, again, how can there be "criminal trespass"? Aren't those courthouse lawns simply a city park, like any other park in town? And your characterization of using words like "digging plugs out of the sod" and "ripping up" the lawn is hardly the image we'd apply to ourselves (it somehow implies geeks who're going to leave craters there). But in any case, retrieval issues aside for the moment: there is no "criminal trespass" for being on a courthouse lawn (unless they're fenced and off-limits for some strange reason??)

 

[Parisdakarbmw]

parisdakarbmw, it's not easy being a cop, so you have my utmost respect.

As regards to your post here: This thread, in context, is the sidewalk strip between the sidewalk, and the street, right? Yet repeatedly in your text, you refer to it as it were not public property. For example, that it might be considered "theft" because it was on "someone's property", etc.... But isn't that the whole point of the thread though, that this is public property, so there is no "trespassing" or "property owner's permission" and such at stake here, right? I mean sure: we'd all agree there's a little common sense and discretion at stake here (since afterall it's right up against people's lawns, and they do mow it afterall ). But strictly speaking, it's not "private property" as you allude to in your paragraph 4, etc... Unless I'm mis-understanding you, and you're changing the subject to something else.

And as for courthouse lawns, again, how can there be "criminal trespass"? Aren't those courthouse lawns simply a city park, like any other park in town? And your characterization of using words like "digging plugs out of the sod" and "ripping up" the lawn is hardly the image we'd apply to ourselves (it somehow implies geeks who're going to leave craters there). But in any case, retrieval issues aside for the moment: there is no "criminal trespass" for being on a courthouse lawn (unless they're fenced and off-limits for some strange reason??)

Good points. I understand where you are coming from, but here is a better explaination. The county right of way (in my jurisdiction) is 10 feet from the paved surface. Although the local government may use the area to add a sidewalk, or expand the road, most property lines go to the street. True the government may use the property, but it still belongs to someone. Keep in mind I hunt for arrowheads, and MD myself.

If it is a public right of way you can walk there, but just because something is there doesn't make it free for the taking. Examples are mailboxes, or flower beds, stone decorations and such. The government may change those lines for public use, but the land is still owned by someone other than ourselves. If you dig something up on property that isn't yours without permission.....Someone could construe that as theft.

The manicured lawns also cost money to maintain. I have pressed charges for more extreme incidents such as people riding a motorcycle across a school lawn, and leaving tracks. Granted that was done in a malicious manor, it still was done and changed the lawn from it's original state. All I'm saying is that if you are basing your ability to detect on the fact that the land is owned by the local government, and it's ours to detect on... That's not correct. Common sense would keep these incidents from coming up. Go when it's a holiday weekend, and stay away from the structure so people don't accuse you of stealing little things that may have been missing or damaged. Most places have cameras, and I wouldn't want to be the guy picking stuff up near a building (legit md stuff) and then something turn up missing from a truck just out of the cameras view. Just good to stay away from.

When I mentioned ripping up the lawn, and digging up plugs, that was in reference to a ticked off person calling to complain. They won't tell the dispatcher, or the police officer that you were using an ice pick to gently probe the soil. They will make you out to be digging a four foot shallow grave right in the middle of the lawn.

You shouldn't have an issue detecting on the side of the road, but if push comes to shove....You could be liable for whatever the property owner, or government concocts as damages (no matter how silly it sounds.. Read the newspaper..If they will issue a little girl a ticket for a lemonaid stand without a permit, or business license, we could encounter this issue at some point)

Criminal tresspass to property simply states that if someone alters, defaces, or breaks any property of another under $500 they could be guilty of a misdomeanor. In it's true context you could be guilty of altering the property by disturbing a patch of grass.

We use something called "Spirit of the law", and the fact that you weren't intending to cause damage, or cause tax payer money to refurbish would keep you in good standing.

Now I think we all understand that if there is a side walk, that makes it ok for pedestrians to travel, and you have a legal right to be there. Government property however such as parks, and office buildings fall under a different law. If a reasonable person is there for a legitimate reason during normal hours, it shouldn't be an issue. If you are on the courthouse lawn at 03:00 hours (near a sidewalk) you could find yourself being looked at by the cops as a candidate for loitering, and prowling.

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, but the property belongs to someone, so just keep all that in mind. If someone decides to force the issue, they could press charges for several things.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Well, *technically* you are right on all points. All those things *could* happen, if we read into the minutia deeply enough. And I'll even take it a step further: Even once a metal detector hobbyist finds a park that he finds out he can dig in (ie.: alter, deface, or whatever you want to call it), and where there are no restrictions on the act of swinging a detector, I bet you he'll run afoul of simply thinking he can take items from there, that he finds.

For example: are there not rules that forbid "collecting" in most city's parks or public work codes? They were written so that no one thinks they can back up their truck to the park and help themselves to all the tan bark to take home to their own garden. Or to prohibit harvesting the roses from the rose garden to take to the flea market to sell, and so forth, right? But if you think about it long enough and hard enough, that same "no collecting" verbage can be applied items we find (even clad and so forth, right?). Or how about this: you find a key date barber quarter in the turf or sand box. Take it in to city hall wherever you're at, walk up to the desk clerk, and say:

"Hi. I found this in your park, on city land. I was wondering if I can keep it to display on my own mantle place, or put it on ebay for my own enrichment and enjoyment. Or does it belong to the city, for all to enjoy in the city museum, since it was found on city property?"

What do you think they would say Parisdakarbmw ? And be sure to drop wording from ARPA and so forth, lest they not understand the full implications

Point is: if all of us looks long enough and hard enough, into enough rules, and try hard enough to morph them to apply to ourselves, then you might as well take up a new hobby. And sure, so too does a motorist get roughed up and the "book thrown at him" now and then for nothing but a tail-light out.

So I'm not saying everything you're saying isn't all true (or couldn't in some remote extreme actually happen), it's just that if we start down this rabbit trail of trying seeoooo hard to apply all these things to us, it's going to get to the point where you might as well stay home, or simply hunt your own yard with your wife's permission, and call PG&E "before you dig" as their rules mandate, lest you hit a pipe in your front yard, etc... I mean, how silly can we get?

 

[Parisdakarbmw]

LOL! There are rules, and laws for everything. I like to keep it simple, and do my thing below radar. If challenged I just politely shake hands, and move on. It seems every neighborhood has a self appointed watchdog that will blow the whistle if your having fun. Being low key, and respectful would handle most incidents, however I'm sure some poor MD has been challenged legally before regarding the same crap. I'm not the cop who would make an issue unless someone was really doing damage. Then I would help eject that person from the hobby.

I think it's better to know the possible problems before getting into a pickle. I wear a bright orange vest duing the fall time, or when around water. That brings up another area. What about walking along the bank of a lake? Same thing when the land goes to the water line. Common sense while hunting, or md'ing

 

[Tom_in_CA]

" I like to keep it simple, and do my thing below radar. If challenged I just politely shake hands, and move on ............. Being low key, and respectful would handle most incidents,"

Words of wisdom from a cop himself. It's like a lot of things in life, where ..... sometimes ..... like nose-picking .... you just practice a little discretion, and no one cares unless you're being a nuisance, sticking out, etc....