The Book Club

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

OK, Just give me the page numbers you find of interest and I will do my own interpretation. A quick search this afternoon showed nothing that interesting from 1927 to the end of the publication.

It doesn't seem all that difficult to me. You download the book and you get the years and names of the students. Such as:
Entry #324, Joseph Walz, 21 Oct. 1831

Thanks,

Joe

Jos. Walz.

Yes, it is not difficult once you know where to look, but it is still open to interpretation. There are a few other possibilities on that list, but this one fits the timeline rather well. Again, we really need someone who understands how names were used in 1831 Germany (current) to fully understand what we are seeing. That, unfortunately, is not me. I am working on getting help with this...

View attachment 745087

And a second source is always important... cross referencing with the 1831 Heidelberg city directory.

View attachment 745089 View attachment 745091

 

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[Hal Croves]

One last thing that should be considered. Barnard wrote that Walzer was "a German immigrant, born in Wurtenburg in 1808, a graduate of Heidelburg University, a mining engineer and..."

Jos. Walz, from the above lists was born in Heitersheim, which is a town within the Breisgau-Hochschwarzwald district in the state of Baden-Wurttemburg. Before coming to Heidelburg University, Jos. Walz studied at the University of Freiburg located in Baden-Wurttemburg. Freiburg University could have been where Walzer studied to become a mining engineer.

Now compare this to the following list taken from the New Orleans when it arrived with Walzer in New York.

Jacob Walzer
Arrival Date: 16 July, 1861
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1809
Age: 52
Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: France;Baden

 

[cactusjumper]

One last thing that should be considered. Barnard wrote that Walzer was "a German immigrant, born in Wurtenburg in 1808, a graduate of Heidelburg University, a mining engineer and..."

Jos. Walz, from the above lists was born in Heitersheim, which is a town within the Breisgau-Hochschwarzwald district in the state of Baden-Wurttemburg. Before coming to Heidelburg University, Jos. Walz studied at the University of Freiburg located in Baden-Wurttemburg.

Now compare this to the following list taken from the New Orleans when it arrived with Walzer in New York.

Jacob Walzer
Arrival Date: 16 July, 1861
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1809
Age: 52
Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: France;Baden

Hal,

You can shorten your search considerably if you purchase a few books......now. I believe you are spinning your wheels following a number of false leads.

The first book you should get is "Tales of the Superstitions" by Robert Blair. Once you have read it, you will understand why it's an important source. In Blair's book, go right to page 30 and start there. You need to read the entire book, but read that part first.

You can find Blair's book here:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...tchman&tn=tales+of+the+Superstitions&x=68&y=4

Go ahead and get Dr. Glover's "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz". For Dr. Glover's book, start with Chapter 11 on page 111. His books are getting a little pricey.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Garry]

Joe,

Some excellent advise regarding Blair's book!!! It was the first and perhaps the best book written from a historical standpoint. A few documnets and solid sources have been uncovered since the book was published in 1975 but Blair is still the gold standard. There are 336 footnotes for sources that provide background.

It has frequently been attacked by treasure hunters because of Blair's conclusions (no LDM) and some's contention that he never spent much time in the Superstitions. That is simply not where the documents led him.

If you use the book as a research vehicle you can put together a decent foundation for further research into the history of Waltz and the LDM. You don't have to agree with his conclusions to find a lot of useful information.

I think Joe gave a backhand compliment (somewhere) to Barnard, that he had "some" useful information. I have never found anything at all useful, if you are searching for the true history. I personally would put Barnard at the bottom of the food chain with regard to the LDM history and believe me it is crowded down there.

Garry

PS

Hal, you may even discover the source and evolution of the Jacob Weiser character in the story? You will have to throw out all of the "facts" that you presently believe are true and you may have to go beyond Blair but you can begin to get your arms around the story. Develope your own "facts". Don't make any assumptions, Don't accept undocumented stories, and make sure your foundation is solid.

What year was Weiser introduced into the literature and documents of the LDM, etc. Be extremely careful of the Weedin story because a modern individual took it upon themselves to insert false information in the Weedin-Sims letters.

Good Luck!!

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

You can shorten your search considerably if you purchase a few books......now. I believe you are spinning your wheels following a number of false leads.

The first book you should get is "Tales of the Superstitions" by Robert Blair. Once you have read it, you will understand why it's an important source. In Blair's book, go right to page 30 and start there. You need to read the entire book, but read that part first.

You can find Blair's book here:

tales of the Superstitions - lost dutchman - AbeBooks

Go ahead and get Dr. Glover's "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz". For Dr. Glover's book, start with Chapter 11 on page 111. His books are getting a little pricey.

Good luck,

Joe

cactusjumper,

I will order Blair's book today as you suggested but Glover's is too expensive to purchase twice. I will wait for the newest edition as you initially suggested. But am I "spinning my wheels"? Isn't it important to chase down (and to rule in/out) every possible lead? You took the time and effort to look at the HU register, and found something curious. Jos. Walz was approximately the same age as Walzer, and according to Barnard, from the same region. Ok, it may just be coincidence, but these things need to be looked at. Don't you agree? I am not sure what you want me to think about that is found in these two books, but from where I stand, very little that has been written on the Dutchman is 100% accurate. Hell's bells, we (general) can't even agree on the name.

So, to quote one of the most knowledgeable and respected minds in business.... "since you already have the book, and have found the contents to hold something of importance in the history of the LDM story, why not just tell everyone what you have found?".

 

[Hal Croves]

Garry,

Thank you for the advice. I honestly don't consider anything that I have posted to be factual (perhaps this is not the right word). I am just taking apart the books that I have on the Dutchman and trying to understand which parts are correct and which are not. Barnard at the bottom of the food chain is a bit harsh. While his spelling is pretty poor, he did get a few things correct. How would he have known about the Charles Hauslet (Hauselt) Company and "Flour City Kid Works" and their connection to Newark, NJ? He didn't just pull the name Walzer from thin air and he did quoted his sources; H Petrasch & Frank A. I understand the feelings towards Frank as I read the link provided by cactusjumper.

I am at a disadvantage concerning Blair's work since I don't have it. But once it is in my hand, I will take it apart one "fact" at a time. I have only been at this for a few months now and have quite a bit of catching up to do. There is just so much out there that seems impossible. Last night I finished "Shadow of the Sentinel" by Warren Getler & Bob Brewer. It seems that the Dutchman can be anything a writer wants him to be. Page 176: "To see Jacob Waltz for what he was-a Southern partisan and KGC sentinel...". A sentinel? I wonder if that is anything like a gatekeeper? Ugggggg. If Julia was an African-American, Jacob would have had some explaining to do to his friends in the confederacy. "Ya, but she bakes das must vonderful pies".

Do you know which year the Dr. Thorne story took place?
Can you explain the change & use of the name Waltz?

Thank you Garry!

 

[Garry]

Hal,

Blair covers the Dr. Abraham Thorne Legend is some detail. The time period was about 1870. I also suspect that Dr. Glover may address the Sims Ely Story about Thorne and it's shortcomings in his upcoming book. He suggested as much in his presentation at the Rendezvous?

We have probably at least 30 "documents" (Deeds, Census, Registers, Tax Records, Newspaper Articles, etc.) where Jacob Waltz is referred to Waltz. We have none that refer to him as Walzer or Waltzer?

The Walzer name popped up 50 years after his death and its origin can traced to a letter generated by Herman Petrasch (1940). We can't document that Herman ever met Waltz. He seems to have been off prospecting and first shows up in the record in Phoenix in 1892 after Waltz's death.

Was Herman used by certain individuals for there own designs? I don't know whether anyone can prove the point one way or the other but I certainly lean in that direction. Herman had a tough go!

In 1953 Herman did write to the Librarian at the state capital in Phoenix. He states he is trying to set the record straight. "His name was positively JACOB WALTZER as any oldtimer can testify. We the Petrasch family, my father Gottfried, my brother Rhinhart knew him personally over a period of many years........."

I'll stick with the 30 or so contemporary documents until someone comes up with something more than a theory and a story being told 50 years after Waltz's death.

Garry

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

Blair covers the Dr. Abraham Thorne Legend is some detail. The time period was about 1870. I also suspect that Dr. Glover may address the Sims Ely Story about Thorne and it's shortcomings in his upcoming book. He suggested as much in his presentation at the Rendezvous?

We have probably at least 30 "documents" (Deeds, Census, Registers, Tax Records, Newspaper Articles, etc.) where Jacob Waltz is referred to Waltz. We have none that refer to him as Walzer or Waltzer?

The Walzer name popped up 50 years after his death and its origin can traced to a letter generated by Herman Petrasch (1940). We can't document that Herman ever met Waltz. He seems to have been off prospecting and first shows up in the record in Phoenix in 1892 after Waltz's death.

Was Herman used by certain individuals for there own designs? I don't know whether anyone can prove the point one way or the other but I certainly lean in that direction. Herman had a tough go!

In 1953 Herman did write to the Librarian at the state capital in Phoenix. He states he is trying to set the record straight. "His name was positively JACOB WALTZER as any oldtimer can testify. We the Petrasch family, my father Gottfried, my brother Rhinhart knew him personally over a period of many years........."

I'll stick with the 30 or so contemporary documents until someone comes up with something more than a theory and a story being told 50 years after Waltz's death.

Garry

Thank you Garry. I am looking at Dr. Glovers book this morning, but it leaves me with many questions. If it is Waltz, why has it been so difficult to tell Jacob's lifes story prior to his arrival in the US? People other than Herman & Frank believed the name to be Walzer and even confirmed that belief in bronze. What was the reason/influence for the change to Waltz? The 30 documents you wrote about? I have not seen them all, (would love to) but want to know if there are ANY variations in the spelling of Waltz? Do you know? If so, that is something to think about.

I appreciate the kind help!

Until the Blair book comes, I am left scratching my head over what you wrote about Wisner. The Wisner that I am researching has a very real connection to the Thone family. I am not saying this is anything more than coincidence, but the connection is there none the less. I am traveling to his home town next week to dig up what I can... No, not his grave, but the thought had crossed my mind.

Again thank you!

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

It seems that Garry and myself, both see some exceptional abilities in your efforts. The only problem is the source material that started you off......in the wrong direction.

I used to think that Dr. Glover was the gold standard, and still know he is an extraordinary researcher, as well as a good friend. He, like many others in the Dutch Hunting Community......including me, was taken in by Garry's "modern individual". At this point in time Blair is definitely at the top of the Dutch hunting food chain.

"Spinning your wheels" refers to your going down roads that others have researched and provided more than enough documentation to confirm the truth. Nothing wrong with that, but you need to have that source material that provides a stop sign for your forward momentum. Sometimes a California Pause is sufficient, at other times a complete stop is called for.

I look forward to your comments after you have read Blair.....a few times. I have three copies, one a flat signed first edition. The one I usually peruse is a soft cover that is falling apart.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

It seems that Garry and myself, both see some exceptional abilities in your efforts. The only problem is the source material that started you off......in the wrong direction.

I used to think that Dr. Glover was the gold standard, and still know he is an extraordinary researcher, as well as a good friend. He, like many others in the Dutch Hunting Community......including me, was taken in by Garry's "modern individual". At this point in time Blair is definitely at the top of the Dutch hunting food chain.

"Spinning your wheels" refers to your going down roads that others have researched and provided more than enough documentation to confirm the truth. Nothing wrong with that, but you need to have that source material that provides a stop sign for your forward momentum. Sometimes a California Pause is sufficient, at other times a complete stop is called for.

I look forward to your comments after you have read Blair.....a few times. I have three copies, one a flat signed first edition. The one I usually peruse is a soft cover that is falling apart.

Good luck,

Joe

Thank you for the compliment. I know that you gentelman have invested a great part of your life walking those trails and absorbing local history. I doubt that I will ever catch up. Which is why I am looking where I believe not many have looked. Even if it is in vain, I just have a gut feeling about Barnard. Perhaps it is some type of pathetic connection that I have yet to fully understand. There is a certian humility about him that I find appealing (even though he may have at times painted himself in a greater light than due him). I just can't seem to let it go. I have made so many missteps in the past that whatever is waiting for me will come as no great dissapointment.

I requested Blair's work this morning via worldcat, so there is no telling how long it will take. But when it comes I will read and let you know what I find.

Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Garry]

Hal,

I have not been researching the LDm that long (About 7 years) I have only gone on about 7 or 8 hikes in the Superstitions and I was there for the scenery. I have never ran across any compelling treasure clues to chase but I do enjoy walking in the areas that I have read about. There are a lot of areas I would like to explore. Like where Adolph Ruth met his demise. There may be 3 or 4 silver dollars buried around that area, maybe the plate in his leg, maybe the bullet
that some feel crashed thru his skull but maybe not.

I live in Missouri so you can see we are both in a similar boat but the research possibilities are endless. It does take some patience! It may be more fun, for some, to daydream about some fantasy of discovering a rich gold mine but there are "many" historical gold mines waiting to be discovered.

Garry

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

If you like, I would be happy to send you my, ragged, softcover of Blake's book. I can put it in the mail tomorrow.

Let me know,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

If you like, I would be happy to send you my, ragged, softcover of Blake's book. I can put it in the mail tomorrow.

Let me know,

Joe

cactusjumper,
That would be a big help and very much appreciated. I think that you have the address. I am leaving this weekend for a look at Jacob S. Wisner's (not saying that this is the correct Wisner) home town and hope to have some thoughts to share midweek when I return. Thank you again, an I hope that you are keeping warm.

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,
That would be a big help and very much appreciated. I think that you have the address. I am leaving this weekend for a look at Jacob S. Wisner's (not saying that this is the correct Wisner) home town and hope to have some thoughts to share midweek when I return. Thank you again, an I hope that you are keeping warm.

Hal,

Too late for today, probably will go out Monday.

Enjoy.....

Joe

 

[markmar]

Hal

Brad W. who declares how is Waltz decendant , wrote in DUSA " Jacob Waltz did study mining in Germany, he never possessed a mining degree. "
Look at DesertUSA.com/mb3 ? View topic - GENERAL DISCUSSION - Anything related to the LDM

Marius

 

[Hal Croves]

Thank you markmar!
I just wish that these posts would include a source or support materials for their conclusions.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

The book is in the mail.

Take care,

Joe

 

[neighbors75]

most immigrants to this country usually changed their name to more of an American nature to better their opportunities as a new citizen. waltzer could have been change to waltz. maybe recorded as being changed. ELLis island did record immigration. they may be able to locate it.

 

[cactusjumper]

most immigrants to this country usually changed their name to more of an American nature to better their opportunities as a new citizen. waltzer could have been change to waltz. maybe recorded as being changed. ELLis island did record immigration. they may be able to locate it.

75,

Waltz's name has really been deeply researched. I believe once Hal get's Blair's book, he will be won over. Dr. Glover actually went to Germany as part of his research into Jacob Waltz.

While what you say is true, there is really no evidence that's what happened to Jacob Waltz.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Garry,

Are you wading your way through the Calalus material? It's a lot to read, but one of the things that came through to me, on a regular basis, was the disdain they felt for the people at the University.

Nothing in those papers changed my mind about the authenticity of the whole story. I came to believe that $ was what they were looking for.

Jack and Bernice were both convinced the artifacts and Calalus were the real thing. Of course they leaned that way on many other such stories. The McGee's were the ones that originally placed the Superstitions into the equation. Ben Davis has just taken it to a whole new level. His whole story is ludicrous.

Anyway, you now have the story from the original believer's side.

Take care,

Joe