The Knights Templar connection to Oak Island Challenge

[lokiblossom]

Another patchwork quilt of sown together random and unrelated history to cover the bed of one's pet theory.

Really cute, I like that ECS! Actually there were some 13 Catholic Bishops sent to Greenland during the Norse period there and Vinland was a common theme.

Dropping the "R" indicates a lot, especially at Shugborough with the coordinates of the center of Nova Scotia in an easy to read code on the inscription. And its all spelled out in the Shepherdess Parchment! Another item is the "by this cross" a cross was a latitude measuring device. I have used a simple cross to find latitude within a quarter mile! An the letters "PAX" are also part of the latitude clues. See, all easy to follow, so easy even a cav.... !!

Cheers, Loki

 

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[ECS]

The encoded message on the Shugborough Monument is to be read as degrees and minutes of latitude and Longitude as the letters D and M tell us.
The design of the Monument is a copy of the painting by Poussin mentioned in the Shepherdess Parchment of Rennes le Chateau fame, but cleverly reversed, indicating the figures for the coordinates should also be reversed, very simple, it cannot be decoded because everyone is looking for a more complicated solution...
The letters in the code simply represent the numbers 1 through 26 a code every child knows.

Poussin's "Shepherds in Arcadia" itself holds a clue also as simple.
The Shepherd kneeling is pointing his index finger directly at the "R" in Arcadia with a puzzled look on his face.
The R should't be there, it should read "In Acadia I". At the time of the Poussin painting the most talked about subject in France would have been "New France" (Acadia).

Actually a closeup of the Shugborough will indicate the same thing, but the index finger points at the word "in" and very obviously has been broken off while the thumb is on the "R" and is also partly broken off...

Don't get too excited though franklin, all these clues do is take us to Nova Scotia not Oak Island! ...

Franklin posted different coordinates from yours, which as with your conclusions, is based on expectations fueled by pet theories.
An example is your belief concerning the shepherd pointing to the "R" in Arcadia meaning it refers to New France.
The same with the Shugborough Monument.
Sound and fury lacking substance.

 

[lokiblossom]

Franklin posted different coordinates from yours, which as with your conclusions, is based on expectations fueled by pet theories.
An example is your belief concerning the shepherd pointing to the "R" in Arcadia meaning it refers to New France.
The same with the Shugborough Monument.
Sound and fury lacking substance.

The fact is we both went to Nova Scotia with our coordinates! Nope, easy to understand clues. There is no doubt it is a code and the D for degrees and M for minutes is difficult to ignore, especially considering that Anson's history with navigation is legendary. The fact that the relief is almost a direct copy of the Poussin but in reverse which is itself supposed to hold a code would also seem to be important, yes?

Actually though, if a person doesn't accept the concept of a Holy Grail any of the other wouldn't mean a thing, right? What would clues to a Holy Grail point to if there was no such thing? So why don't you just simply tell me I am wrong about such nonsense and drop the discussion. Just asking is all! You ever heard about arguing with a certain someone is like arguing with a pig in the mud and sooner or later you learn the pig likes it, thats me!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Most of your assumptions originate from the alleged parchments found by Berenger Saunier, including the one that mentions Poussin, etc.
Are you familiar with the document forger, Philippe de Cherisey and Pierre Plantard?
Cherisey confessed that he forged the parchments , copying from the ancient text, DICTIONAIRE d' CHRETIENNE ET DE LITGURGIE.

 

[lokiblossom]

Most of your assumptions originate from the alleged parchments found by Berenger Saunier, including the one that mentions Poussin, etc.
Are you familiar with the document forger, Philippe de Cherisey and Pierre Plantard?
Cherisey confessed that he forged the parchments , copying from the ancient text, DICTIONAIRE d' CHRETIENNE ET DE LITGURGIE.

Most of my assumptions do not originate with the parchments! I start in Troyes France with a connection between the then Count Of Champagne and Bernard of Clairvaux (Saint Bernard) and the founding of the Knights Templar by these two. We know the Templars spent at least the first decade of their existence digging in the old Solomons Temple mound for religious artifacts. Then we have the Grail stories that originate at first from the same location in Troyes, as a matter of fact from the same house, the Court of Champagne. I could go on and on, but I've been through it all before.

As for de Cherisey's so-called confession of forging the parchments as published by Jean-Luc Chaumeil, you evidently know very little of the story. The fact is Chaumeil and de Cherisey became enemies and the publication of Stone and Paper came 25 years after the death of de Cherisey. You should read it if you want to argue the point. The fact that Marie's tombstone that is an anagram of the Shepherdess Parchment was copied in 1905 by an accredited historical organization before it was destroyed proves that it was not a hoax.

Cheers, loki

 

[ECS]

Then there is Gerard de Sede who published two books, one in 1967 the other 1968 that supported these forged parchments continue the Saunieir tale of discovery.
In 1988, Sede published a book in he admitted that these "Sauniere parchments" were forgeries made by de Cherisey, and in 1985, Pierre Jarnac in his "HISTORIE du TRESOR de RENNES-le CHATEAU" included a reproduction of a letter by de Cherisey from Liege, Belgium, dated January 29, 1974 in which he admitted making those parchment forgeries.
It seems, Loki, that I know a bit more about de Cherisey's confession than you.
Now if Sauniere's parchments were forgeries, what does that say about the mention of Poussin and Teniers, the Blue Apples, and Poussin's shepherd pointing to the "D" to designate "ACADIA" in New France?

True that Perceval of Chretien de Troyes is the oldest Grail romance still existing, but there are many theories concerning the origin of Grail stories as well as Grails.
Academics as well as other researchers have identified Celtic and European pre-Christian myths, as well as Byzantine myths married to Eastern Orthodox traditions, as well as ancient Persian cult practices, pre-Christian nature worship in the Middle East and alchemical symbology.
During the 12th and 13th centuries due to tales brought back from the Crusades, Grail stories appeared in a variety of languages including French, German, Spanish, Welsh, and English, with as many variations, such as the Guardian Fisher Kings.

 

[sasquash]

From the voyages of Samuel de Champlain 1604-1607 page 113

https://archive.org/details/voyagessam00chamrich/page/112

Port aux Mines, where I had previously been, and whither
I conducted Sieur de Poutrincourt, who collected some little
pieces of copper with great difficulty. All this bay has a cir
cuit of perhaps twenty leagues, with a little river 1 at its head,
which is very sluggish and contains but little water. There
are many other little brooks, and some places where there are
good harbors at high tide, which rises here five fathoms.
In one of these harbors three or four leagues north of Cap
de Poutrincourt, we found a very old cross all covered with
moss and almost all rotten, a plain indication that before this
there had been Christians there. All of this country is cov
ered with dense forests, and with some exceptions is not very
attractive.

 

[lokiblossom]

Then there is Gerard de Sede who published two books, one in 1967 the other 1968 that supported these forged parchments continue the Saunieir tale of discovery.
In 1988, Sede published a book in he admitted that these "Sauniere parchments" were forgeries made by de Cherisey, and in 1985, Pierre Jarnac in his "HISTORIE du TRESOR de RENNES-le CHATEAU" included a reproduction of a letter by de Cherisey from Liege, Belgium, dated January 29, 1974 in which he admitted making those parchment forgeries.
It seems, Loki, that I know a bit more about de Cherisey's confession than you.
Now if Sauniere's parchments were forgeries, what does that say about the mention of Poussin and Teniers, the Blue Apples, and Poussin's shepherd pointing to the "D" to designate "ACADIA" in New France?

If you really got into this you would find that the so-called confessions themselves are forgeries created by a couple that hated de Cherisey. In the first place there were three parchments, one of which had a coded message on each side. The other two contained very important genealogies, because of which they drew the attention of British agents. If you read some of de Cherisey's earlier letters you would see his intentions were indeed honorable.

One important evidence for the authenticity of the Shepherdess Parchment (created before 1905) is the fact that the tombstone the 128 letter anagram came from had errors created on purpose to make the anagram work. In other words the tombstone was created for the purpose of the anagram! Although the tombstone has since disappeared a copy was made in 1905 with all the errors by an accredited historical source, SESA, of which I have a copy sent by them, in good faith, to me which also includes the whole excursion. My copy is in French and has been translated to English. The tombstone was for a Marie de Blanchefort who died in 1781. Explain to me how or why, SESA in 1905 could have been privy to a hoax in the 1950's, 60's. Although I have seen attempts at this, in the end they do not work.

Another equally important point is the Poussin work itself. Created in the 1630's with, lets call it an alleged code, in the 1750's a copy, the Shugborough(albeit with a few changes), was created with an obvious code. Evidently the creator (designer) of the Shugborough had some knowledge of the earlier Poussin Code. It is a fact that Poussin was known as the keeper of secrets.

Something else that should be mentioned is the Tenniers which seems to get little attention. As I mentioned earlier the "no-temptation" is meant for the Poussin not the Tenniers, but the Tenniers is referenced by the "cross" and the letters "PAX". In the Tenniers is a map and the obvious "Horse of God" that indicates the correct version.


Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

All circumstantial that does not prove the Templars ever sailed to Nova Scotia, or that a conspiracy existed over centuries with people totally unrelated to each other, separated by time and location and without any known contact, hide the Grail in "the New World" and have coded clues placed in paintings, parchments, and monuments that only the "enlighten" can discover and understand.

True research would present a "chain of evidence" that would document how all these random people and events are connected to the Grail story beyond the maybe, could be speculation that has been presented in place of fact.
If these connections can not be established, all of this are only random coincidences force fitted to create a fabricated pseudo timeline to support a pet theory.

 

[ECS]

From the voyages of Samuel de Champlain 1604-1607 page 113

https://archive.org/details/voyagessam00chamrich/page/112

Port aux Mines, where I had previously been, and whither
I conducted Sieur de Poutrincourt, who collected some little
pieces of copper with great difficulty. All this bay has a cir
cuit of perhaps twenty leagues, with a little river 1 at its head,
which is very sluggish and contains but little water. There
are many other little brooks, and some places where there are
good harbors at high tide, which rises here five fathoms.
In one of these harbors three or four leagues north of Cap
de Poutrincourt, we found a very old cross all covered with
moss and almost all rotten, a plain indication that before this
there had been Christians there. All of this country is cov
ered with dense forests, and with some exceptions is not very
attractive.

Yes he did discover a moss covered wooden cross in 1607...
...but not from the Templars.
In 1521, Joao Alvares Fagundes enlisted several families from the Portuguese Azores to establish a colony and fishing station in Nova Scotia.
Yes, Christians were there, not the Templars, not a mystery but a known piece of Canadian history, with even a plaque commemorating the Portuguese in Canada before de Champlain.

 

[lokiblossom]

All circumstantial that does not prove the Templars ever sailed to Nova Scotia, or that a conspiracy existed over centuries with people totally unrelated to each other, separated by time and location and without any known contact, hide the Grail in "the New World" and have coded clues placed in paintings, parchments, and monuments that only the "enlighten" can discover and understand.

True research would present a "chain of evidence" that would document how all these random people and events are connected to the Grail story beyond the maybe, could be speculation that has been presented in place of fact.
If these connections can not be established, all of this are only random coincidences force fitted to create a fabricated pseudo timeline to support a pet theory.

I thought we were working backwards towards the beginning of a mystery that I believe will eventually culminate in Nova Scotia. Perhaps you could answer my question above on SESA and then I could show you how it relates to a Templar voyage to North America. For instance, did you know there was a Templar House (office) within a couple of miles of Rennes le Chateau? And Cathars lived in Rennes le Chateau?

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Yes he did discover a moss covered wooden cross in 1607...
...but not from the Templars.
In 1521, Joao Alvares Fagundes enlisted several families from the Portuguese Azores to establish a colony and fishing station in Nova Scotia.

That Portuguese settlement was on Cape Breton, this cross was found deep into the Bay of Fundy!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Still doesn't make that moss covered cross from the Templars. now does it?
AS for SESA and Rennes le Chateau, there is a vested interested in keeping the legend alive, known as tourism.
Before Sauniere's "parchment discovery" , Rennes le Chateau was a nowhere village.

 

[lokiblossom]

Still doesn't make that moss covered cross from the Templars. now does it?
AS for SESA and Rennes le Chateau, there is a vested interested in keeping the legend alive, known as tourism.
Before Sauniere's "parchment discovery" , Rennes le Chateau was a nowhere village.

I didn't say it was Templars, it also could be Norse or Portuguese and still be post-columbian, (not sure thats a real word)!

SESA is or was not located near Rennes le Chateau, and I would hope a serious historical organization didn't get caught up in tourism.

Cheers, Loki

 

[sasquash]

Still doesn't make that moss covered cross from the Templars. now does it?
AS for SESA and Rennes le Chateau, there is a vested interested in keeping the legend alive, known as tourism.
Before Sauniere's "parchment discovery" , Rennes le Chateau was a nowhere village.

Never said that was Templar cross but could it be ?

 

[ECS]

...
SESA is or was not located near Rennes le Chateau, and I would hope a serious historical organization didn't get caught up in tourism.

The Tombstone of Marie de Negri d’Ables, Countess of Blanchefort
Cheers, Loki!

 

[ECS]

... I state that there is logical evidence for a Knights Templar presence on the Island.

Stating and proving are not quite the same, you won't find the Grail in gold candle flame.

 

[lokiblossom]

Never said that was Templar cross but could it be ?

Probably doubtful, because it was some 300 years after the fact and evidently wooden!

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

The Tombstone of Marie de Negri d’Ables, Countess of Blanchefort
Cheers, Loki!

I'm sure that if you understand Latin you can see some of the obvious errors, such as the 0 in the date and the date itself along with several other errors. Proof the tombstone was created sometime before 1905 to make the anagram work.

That is from Paul Smith a known Rennes le Chateau debunker,(in other words, your own kind) but he has never satisfactorily answered the same question I just asked!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Do you consider anyone who presents facts that question tour speculation a "debunker" ?
PS: Yes, I can translate Latin.