The Lost Doc Thorne Mine - was it the same mine of Jacob Waltz?

[Cubfan64]

There are about 80 lost mine stories in the southwest. It's doubtful that any could be identified as one of the 80 lost mines if any of them exist and a gold rich area was found.

I search the net just for the fun of it. Not a chance I would go looking for some lost mine when there is so much real gold to be found.

As far as I'm concerned all lost mine stories are a bunch of bunk! You would have to be an idiot to find a rich gold to mine and not legally claim it & then hire people to get the gold out ASAP. Who in their right mind would collect a little bit at a time knowing that if someone else legally claimed the mine that they would get nothing?

Waltz who filed numerous legal claims decides to not claim an ultra rich mine, to shoot people following him or to lead them on a wild goose chase? OK, makes sense to me!

I'm with Real de Tayopa in that making a blanket statement that all lost mine stories are bunk is irrational. There are very few statements starting with "I believe (or don't believe) that ALL... (fill in the blanks...) that are true as there are usually plenty of exceptions.

I do agree with you however that if Waltz had a mine, there are very few legitimate reasons as to why he would not want to claim it. One of the theories put forth by Jim Hatt is that Waltz was afraid if he claimed it, he might lose rights to it to Reavis (not Elisha but James Addison of the fake Peralta land scam) if that land claim turned out to be true. It's a reasonable theory, and there are others that can be considered as well.

Quick question to everyone posting about the pit mine in the Roger's Canyon area on this thread. I know we get off on tangents A LOT on TreasureNet without active moderating. Personally I think the pit mine deserves it's own thread - especially since Frank has posted some new information. If there isn't already a thread about it buried deep in the subforum, do folks think it's worth starting one for discussion purposes??

 

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[pippinwhitepaws]

hey, the lost mine shaft I found bit me on the bottom....

 

[cactusjumper]

Homar,

Yes, I know. But than again, Jack never said that "silver ore is actually Lost Dutchman Gold", nor has he ever tried to convince anyone that it was. Do you think that is what he was trying to do?

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

There are about 80 lost mine stories in the southwest. It's doubtful that any could be identified as one of the 80 lost mines if any of them exist and a gold rich area was found.

I search the net just for the fun of it. Not a chance I would go looking for some lost mine when there is so much real gold to be found.

As far as I'm concerned all lost mine stories are a bunch of bunk! You would have to be an idiot to find a rich gold to mine and not legally claim it & then hire people to get the gold out ASAP. Who in their right mind would collect a little bit at a time knowing that if someone else legally claimed the mine that they would get nothing?

Waltz who filed numerous legal claims decides to not claim an ultra rich mine, to shoot people following him or to lead them on a wild goose chase? OK, makes sense to me!

Can't claim in that area. It's in the wilderness.
I don't want to give away more of what Jack will have in his book. So that's all I'm posting on the Pitt

One funny thing about the Dutchman clues. Many quote them like the 10 commandments. As Jack proved in his class they fit a different area also. You need to think outside the box. Succeed where others have failed. It only takes one or two bad clues to put you in the wrong area.

 

[chlsbrns]

What's the deal with Jacob Waltz and Jacob Weiss?

 

[Oroblanco]

Sarge - one pound of silver at $20 per ounce is $240; ten pounds of it is $2400; are you saying that you would not be willing to pack out a backpack of rock that had $2400 in it, and then repeat it a few times? I must beg to differ with you on this view, of course if you were talking about sheer value, gold wins out hands down for value per ounce, but remember most of these mines in the entire district had both silver and gold, so lets change the picture and say that ten pounds of silver had one ounce of gold in it, now the value is over $3300. Would you still not be willing to pack it out?

Chlsbrns wrote

As far as I'm concerned all lost mine stories are a bunch of bunk!

Good for you! Stick to the known gold mining areas and you stand a great chance of finding some gold, of course finding any place that is not already under claim may be the trick in that case. Or just stay home and feel free to laugh at all those who go looking for lost mines, content in the knowledge that you will never find one.

Chlesbrns also wrote

You would have to be an idiot to find a rich gold to mine and not legally claim it & then hire people to get the gold out ASAP. Who in their right mind would collect a little bit at a time knowing that if someone else legally claimed the mine that they would get nothing?

I can say from personal experience, that when you file a new mining claim where no one ever has before, it will attract claim jumpers, and in Waltz's day, murderers as well. Dick Holmes admitted to having attempted to trail him to the mine, as did several others. It would have been practically throwing away his mine if he were to file a claim on it, unless he were to set up an armed camp at the mine and never leave it nor sleep.

You also seem to think it very hard to lose a mine; it is a very easy thing to do. Many of the lost mine stories point up how they got lost. You also seem to have overlooked the fact that a good number of lost mines are not lost; remember, the Silver King was for years just a story told in local saloons, found and lost and found again, the Pima/Vekol was more famous as a lost mine until the Pimas showed it to Dr John Walker and he claimed it, and we could go on with more like the Breyfogle, the Goler Diggings, the Mojave mine, the Josephine etc. Just because a lost mine has not been found, is no proof that it never existed.

Last point - you would try to get all the gold out, or as much as you could, but not everyone woudl be greedy about such wealth. I know several people whom are multi-millionaires and they do not seek to get more wealth, many people in fact would stop short of trying to get as much wealth as possible if they can live comfortably and have what they desire. It is a personal standard for each person, not really fair to impose your idea of how much wealth is the right amount when another person may have a very different idea. Also, remember that the Superstitions were being actively used by the hostile Apaches, and Waltz believed that his own partner had been killed by them while he was away simply getting more supplies They did not stop being a factor until 1886, and Waltz was by then quite old.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions chlsbrns, and we won't mind if you are not out in the hills competing with us in looking for the Lost Dutchman or Doc Thorn mine; in fact you will likely find some gold in any one of those hundreds or thousands of known old gold mines, assuming they are not played out.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek - and wishing you all a very Happy Thanksgiving as well!
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

Roy the silver ore looked similar to that of the Silver King with some differences. It's not the solid silver type. The type you crush and leach out the flower silver. Some Az silver mines have the big chunks of solid silver. In that case yes but not in this case. If the area had big chunks of solid silver I would be there with my 25" coil. Here is a pice of high grade Silver King ore

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Roy,

If you think that the perp's were mining silver, which I don't, you would need to use silver prices from 1997-98 & 99. Believe it was around the $9 per ounce range.

One good reason for Waltz not filing a claim, would be if he was pilfering someone elses CACHE. That would mean our boys were cleaning out a cache of gold.......not actually mining. That's not to say they didn't have to clean out some fill in the process.

I think I started a Pit Mine topic earlier here.

Hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Yes you did Joe! It made things more interesting.

 

[chlsbrns]

Sarge - one pound of silver at $20 per ounce is $240; ten pounds of it is $2400; are you saying that you would not be willing to pack out a backpack of rock that had $2400 in it, and then repeat it a few times? I must beg to differ with you on this view, of course if you were talking about sheer value, gold wins out hands down for value per ounce, but remember most of these mines in the entire district had both silver and gold, so lets change the picture and say that ten pounds of silver had one ounce of gold in it, now the value is over $3300. Would you still not be willing to pack it out?

>>Silver is less than $20/oz today.

Chlsbrns wrote

Good for you! Stick to the known gold mining areas and you stand a great chance of finding some gold, of course finding any place that is not already under claim may be the trick in that case. Or just stay home and feel free to laugh at all those who go looking for lost mines, content in the knowledge that you will never find one.

>>>I don't need luck I know where there is plenty of gold in every gold bearing State. I don't laugh at what other people choose to do with their time or money. Who has actually had feet on the ground looking?

Chlesbrns also wrote

I can say from personal experience, that when you file a new mining claim where no one ever has before, it will attract claim jumpers, and in Waltz's day, murderers as well. Dick Holmes admitted to having attempted to trail him to the mine, as did several others. It would have been practically throwing away his mine if he were to file a claim on it, unless he were to set up an armed camp at the mine and never leave it nor sleep.

>>> Seriously snap out of it! I've already posted numerous claims filed by Waltz. One of which Waltz sold to Weiss. ("SOLD") Those people following probably wanted to "CLAIM" the ground if it even existed. Personally I'm convinced Waltz was a thief and murderer who got his gold by killing and robbing people. Waltz couldn't make that claim so he made up a story about a mine that didn't exist. It's called lazy and GREEDY!

You also seem to think it very hard to lose a mine; it is a very easy thing to do. Many of the lost mine stories point up how they got lost. You also seem to have overlooked the fact that a good number of lost mines are not lost; remember, the Silver King was for years just a story told in local saloons, found and lost and found again, the Pima/Vekol was more famous as a lost mine until the Pimas showed it to Dr John Walker and he claimed it, and we could go on with more like the Breyfogle, the Goler Diggings, the Mojave mine, the Josephine etc. Just because a lost mine has not been found, is no proof that it never existed.

>>> Dr. John Walker, Waltz's buddy? Mines that are not legally claimed could be lost if someone chooses to use the term lost. Dr. Walker claimed the mine? Why? In your words: Claiming is practically throwing it away.

Last point - you would try to get all the gold out, or as much as you could, but not everyone woudl be greedy about such wealth. I know several people whom are multi-millionaires and they do not seek to get more wealth, many people in fact would stop short of trying to get as much wealth as possible if they can live comfortably and have what they desire. It is a personal standard for each person, not really fair to impose your idea of how much wealth is the right amount when another person may have a very different idea. Also, remember that the Superstitions were being actively used by the hostile Apaches, and Waltz believed that his own partner had been killed by them while he was away simply getting more supplies They did not stop being a factor until 1886, and Waltz was by then quite old.

>>> See above Murder Theft and Greed!

You are certainly welcome to your opinions chlsbrns, and we won't mind if you are not out in the hills competing with us in looking for the Lost Dutchman or Doc Thorn mine; in fact you will likely find some gold in any one of those hundreds or thousands of known old gold mines, assuming they are not played out.

>>> I personally know where there is billions of dollars in unrecovered gold throughout the USA. I've offered locations here in a public forum but no takers. It seems the people here are interested in lost mines on Federal Lands where they can't mine the gold, not real gold mines where they can mine the gold.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek - and wishing you all a very Happy Thanksgiving as well!
Oroblanco

The two pics show locations with verified large quantities of gold that have not been recovered in the Western US and Alaska. I guess they could be called lost?

 

[somehiker]

Are there any other claims in the Sups area which date to the same time frame as Waltz was actually digging ?
Was it within a mining district at the time ?

How would a claim be filed in an area yet to be properly surveyed and mapped ?

With hostiles in the area, would anyone put claim markers up ?

From what little I know of the history, my understanding is that Waltz and Weizer worked the mine until Weizer's death. Then came the nephew and his unfortunate demise, followed by Waltz covering the mine. In subsequent years he was said to have visited the mountains occasionally, only to retrieve ore from his cache(s). This would have negated the need to file a claim, IMO.

There has been more than a few DHers who have spent far greater than three seasons or years, and all the money they had or could raise, without finding anything. Some went nuts in the process. Many died.....There's always that "just one more -------" thing, and that's all it takes.

chlsbrns:

">>> I personally know where there is billions of dollars in unrecovered gold throughout the USA. I've offered locations here in a public forum but no takers."

How do you know you've had no takers ? Do you really think someone's going to say "hey, you were right....and here's your share"
Tell ya what !
Send me one of your Google Earth locations and me and Roy will go get a couple of billion bucks worth.
We promise to give you a holler as soon as we turn it into cash....OK ?

 

[chlsbrns]

somehiker are you talking about Waltz's nephew? The nephew that Waltz shot to death? Shot to death over an argument about submitting claims? Like I said Waltz was a murderer.

 

[chlsbrns]

chlsbrns:

">>> I personally know where there is billions of dollars in unrecovered gold throughout the USA. I've offered locations here in a public forum but no takers."

How do you know you've had no takers ? Do you really think someone's going to say "hey, you were right....and here's your share"

I know because no one asked for a location.

Closed minded very closed minded!

I also would not ask for or want a share.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

frank is a bit too clever...silver king ore? that stuff is difficult to come by...or was?

 

[chlsbrns]

Tell ya what !
Send me one of your Google Earth locations and me and Roy will go get a couple of billion bucks worth.
We promise to give you a holler as soon as we turn it into cash....OK ?

All the locations combined are valued at about $400 billion.

They are not google earth locations I plotted the locations on google earth from USGS files.

Strange that people laugh at reality while looking for lost mines.

For example look at the report/pic below. Keep in mind that they are using 1974 gold prices. The gold in that location is worth about $374,000. at todays gold prices.

It could be called a lost mine but you will never find it!

 

[somehiker]

All the locations combined are valued at about $400 billion.

They are not google earth locations I plotted the locations on google earth from USGS files.

Strange that people laugh at reality while looking for lost mines.

We've had a lot of laughs lately.
Spirit Mountain and a "mission" comes to mind.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

 

[somehiker]

"It could be called a lost mine but you will never find it!"

How could I miss it ?
I just gotta go out there and look for a yellow push-pin....piece of cake.

 

[sgtfda]

The two pics show locations with verified large quantities of gold that have not been recovered in the Western US and Alaska. I guess they could be called lost?

That is info from the USGS web site anyone can access

 

[sgtfda]

frank is a bit too clever...silver king ore? that stuff is difficult to come by...or was?

I asked for a piece to show my club members what that type silver ore looked like. Jack was good enough to provide a piece