The Lost Doc Thorne Mine - was it the same mine of Jacob Waltz?

[pippinwhitepaws]

oh...jack...thanks...did the whispers tell you what his issue with me was?

 

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[sgtfda]

Donald perhaps it's the hippy look. The old time cop outlook. I don't know. I personally look at what's inside a person. Anyway I think your just fine they way you are. I like the look. If I had more hair I'd try it.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

thanks frank...I shower everyday...

 

[somehiker]

All the locations combined are valued at about $400 billion.

They are not google earth locations I plotted the locations on google earth from USGS files.

Strange that people laugh at reality while looking for lost mines.

For example look at the report/pic below. Keep in mind that they are using 1974 gold prices. The gold in that location is worth about $374,000. at todays gold prices.

It could be called a lost mine but you will never find it!

Doubt anyone here wants to haul and crush 500 TONS of rock for only $374,000 before expenses.
Probably why all that stuff is still there.....or under a Wallmart.

 

[Cubfan64]

Hi Roy,

If you think that the perp's were mining silver, which I don't, you would need to use silver prices from 1997-98 & 99. Believe it was around the $9 per ounce range.

One good reason for Waltz not filing a claim, would be if he was pilfering someone elses CACHE. That would mean our boys were cleaning out a cache of gold.......not actually mining. That's not to say they didn't have to clean out some fill in the process.

I think I started a Pit Mine topic earlier here.

Hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving.

Take care,

Joe

That's one of the "other" legitimate theories I was implying above. I'm still trying to figure out the who's, what's, and why's of it all - along with timeframes that would make sense, but it explains a number of things imho about Waltz and his gold source.

 

[Cubfan64]

Sarge - one pound of silver at $20 per ounce is $240; ten pounds of it is $2400; are you saying that you would not be willing to pack out a backpack of rock that had $2400 in it, and then repeat it a few times? I must beg to differ with you on this view, of course if you were talking about sheer value, gold wins out hands down for value per ounce, but remember most of these mines in the entire district had both silver and gold, so lets change the picture and say that ten pounds of silver had one ounce of gold in it, now the value is over $3300. Would you still not be willing to pack it out?

Addressed to Frank, but I'll give my $0.02 as well . Nope, the reward in that case for me isn't nearly good enough for the risk involved which could have included a hefty fine at the least, and handcuffs at the worst.

 

[Cubfan64]

thanks frank...I shower everyday...

Heck, that's better than me :P

 

[chlsbrns]

Doubt anyone here wants to haul and crush 500 TONS of rock for only $374,000 before expenses.
Probably why all that stuff is still there.....or under a Wallmart.

A mining company would jump on 1 gram per ton. The mine I posted has 17 grams per ton with the ore already on top of the ground. Mining companies can do hundreds of tons per hour. You better stick to the lost mines you couldn't handle a real mine.

 

[Cubfan64]

A mining company would jump on 1 gram per ton. The mine I posted has 17 grams per ton with the ore already on top of the ground. Mining companies can do hundreds of tons per hour. You better stick to the lost mines you couldn't handle a real mine.

What in the world does this have to do with the Lost Dutchman Mine? Although I could be wrong, I doubt anyone here is a major player in the mining industry. You're seriously going to demean and ridicule folks here for not going out and spending their money to buy equipment and do all the necessary paperwork to do hardrock mining?? You're on the wrong forum for that I'm afraid.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

i gram per ton makes mining companies jump?
what color is the sun?

Magma would not dig one of the riches underground copper mines in the united states' unless copper paid ALL mining operation costs...the rest was profit.

 

[chlsbrns]

What in the world does this have to do with the Lost Dutchman Mine? Although I could be wrong, I doubt anyone here is a major player in the mining industry. You're seriously going to demean and ridicule folks here for not going out and spending their money to buy equipment and do all the necessary paperwork to do hardrock mining?? You're on the wrong forum for that I'm afraid.

I was first ridiculed and replied but...

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

fine looking chart...didn't know the Dutchman had that chart drawn up...massive sulfides and Japanese cartoon?
now that is a mine I want to find...

 

[sgtfda]

Want gold just go to Luke Air Force base. The runways are graded with tailing from the Vulture min. The Gpap did a panning demo for the guys at the base. Ran some of that fill. There was gold in it.

 

[sgtfda]

I was first ridiculed and replied but...

No need to block everything out. Anyone can go on the USGS site and read the same info. Mine # 10082529

 

[chlsbrns]

No need to block everything out. Anyone can go on the USGS site and read the same info.

Good Idea!

 

[Springfield]

A mining company would jump on 1 gram per ton. The mine I posted has 17 grams per ton with the ore already on top of the ground. Mining companies can do hundreds of tons per hour. You better stick to the lost mines you couldn't handle a real mine.

The economics of low grade ore bodies is easy to see in the world today. There are dozens of million-ounce (or multi-million) deposits of gold-bearing ore of this grade (1 gram) all over Nevada, Mexico, Canada and Alaska waiting for the price of gold to increase to $2,000-3,000/ounce. Then, if somebody will loan them a couple hundred million dollars to start up, they might begin mining. Not today, though. You can read the shareholder presentations of numerous mining corporations to verify the fact.

Your 500 tons of 17-gram dump material is 275 ounces of gold - worth $340,000 in today's coin value. Sounds easy, but is it? You first have to establish a mining claim - pretty easy. Then you'll need a mining engineer and lawyer to prepare your permits, mining plans, purchase your bonds and insurance, etc. - expensive and time consuming. Then you'll have to evaluate the ore and figure out how to process it and where that will happen. It'll be a small batch plant operation for this size lot - they'll want at least a third of the values, if not more, for their time and risk. Oh, almost forgot - how are you going to get the ore to the mill? 500 tons is maybe 50 six-yard dump trucks, after being loaded at the mine. Is a railroad nearby? No? Then the trucks will have to drive to the mill. How far is the mill? Within 200-300 miles? Expensive, no?

Those yellow pins all over the map are still yellow for one reason - the economics hasn't been in their favor.

 

[chlsbrns]

i gram per ton makes mining companies jump?
what color is the sun?

Magma would not dig one of the riches underground copper mines in the united states' unless copper paid ALL mining operation costs...the rest was profit.

A ton of ore will fit in a bathtub.

1/2 of 1ppm is minable: Gold Grain Morphology: Valuable Method in Gold Exploration | Gold Investing News

The info I posted was from N Carolina on private property. No claims to file. It is mostly flour gold in soil, not gold from ore that has to be crushed. They were not very efficient back then and lost a lot of gold. The gold was recovered from that location in a week by 2 guys with recreational prospectors equipment and no permits as none were required.

If you look at the pic I posted you will see a lot of locations with placer gold. Some are veins and some are ore.

OK back to the lost mines. It wasn't my intention to hijack but I had to reply to self proclaimed know it all's who talk about things they know nothing about.

 

[cactusjumper]

This is my sample from the Silver King:



Many thanks to Jack San Felice!

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Extra coffee alert

Hola amigos,
A lot of ground was covered lately and my reply got very long, so I must ask your indulgence; please feel free to skip any or all of this post and I won't be offended. Thank you in advance.

Cactusjumper wrote

Hi Roy,

If you think that the perp's were mining silver, which I don't, you would need to use silver prices from 1997-98 & 99. Believe it was around the $9 per ounce range.

Nine dollars in 1997 had more purchasing power than $9 today amigo, a quick check on a calculator came up with $13-$16 equivalent. The $20 price was an EXAMPLE based on recent prices. I did not say that I thought they were "mining silver" and I don't know why you keep repeating that. What I have said is that mine was a silver mine, likely had a good vein of gold in it. The ore looks to me like it has plenty of silver in it too, besides the gold content, which would not match Waltz's ore by any means. Considering the way smelters purchase ore, if the ore had more dollar value in gold, that is what they would have been paid for and the smelter would have kept the silver, copper and any other valuable metals for nothing. I was not with them when they were digging out the ore. Also, even if they had been simply cleaning out an old cache - the ore in the cache still came from a mine right?

Cactusjumper also wrote

One good reason for Waltz not filing a claim, would be if he was pilfering someone elses CACHE. That would mean our boys were cleaning out a cache of gold.......not actually mining. That's not to say they didn't have to clean out some fill in the process.

That is pure speculation amigo - whose mine was he pilfering the ore from, cache or not? Even if this theory (not supported by statements of Waltz to his friends BTW) then where did that ore come from? Still came from a mine right? This whole dismissive type of theory really misses the mark, bottom line is that gold ore seen being sold by Waltz in Tucson, came from a mine. He told his friends that it was his own mine, people in Florence said that he had a mine, Dick Holmes tried to follow him to a mine. It may be comfortable to just write the whole thing off as just a cache that got cleaned out, however the ore that was in the cache still came from a mine. Can you say what mine that ore came from?

Chlsbrns wrote

>>Silver is less than $20/oz today.

That was given as an example, based on recent silver prices, not the daily London spot price. Savvy?

Chlsbrns also wrote

>>>I don't need luck I know where there is plenty of gold in every gold bearing State. I don't laugh at what other people choose to do with their time or money. Who has actually had feet on the ground looking?

I know many of the people on this forum and can state for a fact that they have indeed put boots on the ground looking, many years of it in fact. How much time have you spent putting your boots on the ground?

You have posted common knowledge about the many known, not lost mines. How many have you actually been to? I see that others have pointed out that in many cases, yes indeed there are thousands of ounces of gold, but so thinly distributed in the ore as to make extracting it non-profitable. Perhaps you do not understand what hunting a lost mine is all about? It is not about simply hunting for a mine that has gold in it, there are thousands of those, it is about finding one that is rich enough for a Mom-n-Pop type of operation to work and make money at. Something so small that a major mining company would not even be interested. Ask our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa about this. Many lost mines are in this class - they are not thousands of acres but quite small - the vein of the Doc Thorn story is no more than eighteen inches thick and you can bet that it tapers off at the ends.

Chlsbrns also wrote

>>> Seriously snap out of it! I've already posted numerous claims filed by Waltz. One of which Waltz sold to Weiss. ("SOLD") Those people following probably wanted to "CLAIM" the ground if it even existed. Personally I'm convinced Waltz was a thief and murderer who got his gold by killing and robbing people. Waltz couldn't make that claim so he made up a story about a mine that didn't exist. It's called lazy and GREEDY!

Snap out of it? Heck amigo I am not sure I even understand your point - you are convinced that Waltz was a lazy, greedy murderer; I don't agree. Would a lazy, greedy murderer give money to a friend to help them out? This version of the story doesn't ring true. We can not know what reason(s) why Waltz chose not to file a claim, but there are some obvious ones, for one thing the moment he filed a claim, he could count on having numerous other people up at his mine and very likely claim jumpers. In another mining district, where others already had filed claims, this risk is greatly reduced. Can you get that idea? I can give you numerous examples - if you filed a new claim on Eldorado Creek in Yukon Territory, it would hardly raise an eyebrow, but when those fellows filed new claims in the Northwest Territories on the great diamond strike there, De Beers immediately claimed up all the ground around it for miles around. In Waltz's day there were people ready and willing to murder you for a rich mine located in a remote place. For that matter there are still people around today whom would do the same - not so many years ago a man was murdered in Apache Jct for having bragged that he had a map to the Lost Dutchman mine. The map was one out of a magazine, but his bragging about it got him killed.

Chlsbrns also wrote

>>> Dr. John Walker, Waltz's buddy? Mines that are not legally claimed could be lost if someone chooses to use the term lost. Dr. Walker claimed the mine? Why? In your words: Claiming is practically throwing it away.

Dr Walker did not know Waltz as far as I know, can you show some evidence that they knew each other? Walker could safely claim the mine as it was deep in Pima territory, where the Apaches feared to tread, and he had the full protection of his friends the Pimas as well. Dr Walker had a map to the mine given him by Weiser, and yet he never once went looking for it, perhaps he thought it was just too dangerous to go into the Superstitions? You are seeing every aspect of this in black and white - perhaps it would be helpful if you read some of the previous threads to get some better foundation?

Chlsbrns also wrote

>>> I personally know where there is billions of dollars in unrecovered gold throughout the USA. I've offered locations here in a public forum but no takers. It seems the people here are interested in lost mines on Federal Lands where they can't mine the gold, not real gold mines where they can mine the gold.

For one thing, why should any of us go to a place that you are not willing to go to? You could be trying to send us on a wild goose chase. Others have already covered other aspects of this, and to Somehiker thanks I will be happy to join you!

Chlsbrns also wrote

The two pics show locations with verified large quantities of gold that have not been recovered in the Western US and Alaska. I guess they could be called lost?

If you would go out and try to find some of these "known" mines, you will learn that a fair number of them which are listed as known and exact locations etc are NOT where the maps show them to be, and some are truly lost, just have no published stories about them. Once a mine is no longer being worked, nature can help hide them from view. Brush grows up, tunnels cave in etc and in a few years the mine is "lost" even if it is well documented. I can give you a direct example of a "known" mine in the Superstitions that is "lost" - the Fortuna mine. The tunnel is caved in, if you did not know right where it was, you might never know it was ever there.

Chlsbrns also wrote

Strange that people laugh at reality while looking for lost mines.

What is funny is that you apparently do not know what the situation is on most of those known mines. If you would go to your state BLM office, you will find that most of them are under claim, and if you went digging on these active claims, you could be prosecuted or even shot. Many known mines are pretty well played out too - so they show up on those publications, but are not worth fooling with. Your research is not getting at the whole picture amigo.

Somehiker wrote

Are there any other claims in the Sups area which date to the same time frame as Waltz was actually digging ?

As we don't know exactly when Waltz was actively mining, it is hard to say - however the Randolph district had over thirty mines (claims) active in the time period when I think Waltz was active, there were other claims in the Sky Blue-Hidden Treasure, and in the Rogers district; I don't think the Goldfield district was active until after his death.

Somehiker also wrote

Was it within a mining district at the time ?

Boy there is the $64,000 question! <EDIT scratch that - make it the $20 million dollar question! In my opinion, I believe Waltz's mine is outside of the Randolph district, and the Rogers, not sure about the exact boundaries of the Sky Blue-Hidden Treasure district which seems to overlap Randolph. That opinion and $5 might get a cup of coffee at the local cafe of course. I just think that if Waltz's mine were in the active mining districts where dozens or even hundreds of prospectors were digging, the mine would have been found, and at the least, Waltz would have been extremely nervous about the activity so close to his mine, yet he never seems to have been worried that someone would happen onto it.

Pippinwhitepaws wrote

frank is a bit too clever...silver king ore? that stuff is difficult to come by...or was?

I had no luck talking Jack out of a specimen either, hope to keep pestering him about it enough that he will sell me a piece sooner or later though.

Cubfan wrote

Addressed to Frank, but I'll give my $0.02 as well . Nope, the reward in that case for me isn't nearly good enough for the risk involved which could have included a hefty fine at the least, and handcuffs at the worst.

We all have different standards. If I were a wealthy guy, a few thousand bucks per backpack load might not be enough for me either.

Chlsbrns wrote

A mining company would jump on 1 gram per ton. The mine I posted has 17 grams per ton with the ore already on top of the ground. Mining companies can do hundreds of tons per hour. You better stick to the lost mines you couldn't handle a real mine.

You really don't know these people do you? Do you realize that there are many different sizes and grades of mines, as well as different types? This is not about finding a Homestake mine that is going to take millions to operate amigo, it is about a small mine that is rich enough to pay for working it on a small scale. Would you believe that there are several thousand small mines operating in the US and Canada that are fair to rich, that no major mining company would even look twice at? It is a fact. No small miner is going to try to mine out a hard rock deposit that would only pay them wages or less, but these small, rich deposits exist in the thousands across the continent and not just in North America either.

Are you asking us to convince you that lost mines are real? Or are you assuming that we are all just deluded idiots? In the first case, you should decide for yourself, and then act accordingly. You seem to assume that none of us have any experience or knowledge of mining - now I cannot speak for everyone, but I own several good mining claims and spend some time digging gold out of them every year. In fact my wife and I made a living at our small mine in the Mojave desert for a couple of years and if not for the Desert Protection Act would probably be there right now. I have over thirty years experience in prospecting and have owned and sold a number of good to excellent mines, and made a respectable amount of money at the vocation, not just looking for lost mines or treasures. I know that quite a few of the other members here have as much or more mining experience, many own mining claims as well or have owned them. Hunting a lost mine is simply prospecting but focused on searching for a particular mine or deposit, rather than just going out in any area and hoping to find a good strike.

I see that our mutual amigo Springfield has already addressed your point on what mining companies would be interested in or not interested in, thank you both.

Sarge wrote

Want gold just go to Luke Air Force base. The runways are graded with tailing from the Vulture min. The Gpap did a panning demo for the guys at the base. Ran some of that fill. There was gold in it.

The county courthouse in Dahlonega Georgia is built of gold ore, has over an ounce per ton in fact. It is not hard to find gold, it is hard to find a lot of gold in one place, wish we could get that across to some people.

Wishing you all a very Happy Thanksgiving,
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Chisbrns: I realize what you are attempting to post or say, just relax. you don't have to prove yourself any more than the others, but don't make such flat, no leeway, statements.

As for mines I own / have one . clear title, no attachments, aprox 500 meters from an all weather state maintained paved road, Hi power lines parallell to the road. labor perhaps 20 kilometers away with a RR shipping center perhaps 100 kilometers on the same all weather paved road..

I have perhaps several thousand tons blocked out of hi grade - Au average runs 27 Grms, high 171 grams., lo 2 or 3. yet I cannot interest anyone to put up the capital to work it.

I have a 'complete mining camp' set up perhaps only 50 kilometers away and it can be easily moved in a few days.

So can you direct me to one of these 'hungry' companies ?

None of my family are miners nor care to work it, nor can I anymore. they want to just profit by it.

Have others will travel.

Don Jose de La Mancha