The Lost Doc Thorne Mine - was it the same mine of Jacob Waltz?

[chlsbrns]

Everything below is from: Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and my questions/comments

According to many versions of the tale, the mine is either cursed, or protected by enigmatic guardians who wish to keep the mine's location a secret. That the Peralta stones, Waltz and Doc Thorne all mislead people away from the mine?

>>>Who/what could be protecting the mine? Could there possibly be truth to the Hopi Indian Beliefs of ant/lizard people as told by Hopi Indians, History, Waltz's grandson & his grandmother?

according to one estimate, 8,000 people annually made some effort to locate the Lost Dutchman's mine

>>> So in 120+ years almost a million people searched for the mine? I wonder if any of the hundreds of people who have claimed to find the mine actually found it? It's doubtful that it could be proven. Wouldn't it be a shame if thousands of people are looking for a mine that was already found? Not that it would do any good to find gold on Federal Wilderness where they absolutely forbid new claims/mining.

"They are, first, tales of the lost Apache gold or Dr. Thorne's mine; second, tales about the Lost Dutchman; and, third, stories of the soldiers' lost gold vein ... the most complete version of the Lost Dutchman story incorporates all three legends". the popular story is often badly garbled from the actual account.

the Peralta portion of the story is unreliable, writing: "The operation of a gold mine in the Superstitions by a Peralta family is a contrivance of 20th century writers.

Another detail which casts doubt on the story is the fact that, according to Blair, there was never any Dr. Thorne in the employ of the Army or indeed of the Federal Government in the 1860s

John D Wilburn in his book Dutchman's Lost Ledge of Gold (1990), argues that the Bulldog Gold Mine near Goldfield, Arizona, fits very well the description Jacob Waltz gave as the location of his 'lost mine'. Furthermore, Wilburn states that geology indicates that there is no gold in the Superstition Mountains, which are igneous in origin.

Blair cites ample evidence of the historical Jacob Waltz and suggests that there is additional evidence that supports the core elements of the story as related above – that Waltz did in fact claim to have discovered (or at least heard the story of) a rich gold vein or cache. But Blair suggests that this core story was distorted in subsequent retellings, comparing the many variants of the Lost Dutchman's story to the game of Chinese whispers, where the original account is distorted in multiple retellings of the tale Chinese whispers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

>>> So it appears that the Doc Thorne Mine is the same as the Waltz mine. With so many stories and versions being told who could know what to believe? I guess it's a matter of blindly deciding what you chose to believe.

 

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[Treasure_Hunter]

chlsbrns

When you quote members do not go inside their quote to post your remarks or change any of the original quote other than to shorten the quote to address one part....

If you want to make multiple remarks to a quote then make multiple quotes....

 

[chlsbrns]

Ok.

I didn't change anyone's quote

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Ok.

I didn't change anyone's quote

Your posting inside their quotes.

We will NOT go quietly into the night!

 

[chlsbrns]

Your posting inside their quotes.

We will NOT go quietly into the night!

I said OK meaning that I wouldn't post inside of their quotes & also mentioned that I didn't change any quotes meaning that I didn't change what they said/what part I was replying to.

 

[markmar]

chlsbrns

I like your energy , but here is not arena . As I have wrote , here we are not doing a competition . I would like to read your theory about the relation between LDM and Doc Thorne .
What you believe about the three maps which drew Waltz and show the same location ?
Why this location fit with all the LDM clues ?

 

[txtea]

I do remember reading the Dr. Thorne story in an issue of Arizona Highways a few years ago. Can't remember which issue it was, and my collection of reading material is somewhere in that massive mound of miscellaneous muck in the garage.

Not sure of the author or if this version of the story is for the tourists, but this version had the Dr. either stationed or visiting a fort,(it mentioned which one, but I forget) tending to various wounds and ailments, when a group of peaceful Indians came to camp seeeking help. The Dr. noticed a child in the group who's eyes had some disease (can't remember which), and Dr. Thorne treated the eyes, giving the child a full recovery.
After finding out other members of the tribe having the same ailment, Dr. Thorne went with them back to their camp and sucessfully treated the others as well.

As a reward, they led him blindfolded to a spot some distance away, unblindfolded him, and showed him the canyon floor littered with gold nuggets. He picked up a nugget, looked it over and threw it down, acting like he's not interested. His plan was to come back later and recover it all. After the Indians insisted it was valuable, he eventually took a sack full of gold back with him.
Of course, like so many tales, he could never find the spot again, even after taking note of the landmarks near the gold site. I believe the main landmark he was looking for was a mountaintop shaped like a sombrero. He led a party of people trying to find this sombrero shaped mountaintop, but eventually his partners told him he is full of poop and gave up.

Maybe someone here can fine-tune that story if they have that issue of Arizona Highways.

 

[chlsbrns]

According to the 1860 trail map below and the story that Waltz could see the trail from the mine the mine has to be somewhere near Phoenix to Tempe to Mesa. That is unless the so called treasure map drawn by Waltz (and story) directed people away from the mine/tunnel entrance.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

You wouldn't sgt, not even an island full of hairy butted marines did, even after a year, sigh, not even the sexist Holly wood star would tempt me from my faithful, lovely mule snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[chlsbrns]

chlsbrns

I like your energy , but here is not arena . As I have wrote , here we are not doing a competition . I would like to read your theory about the relation between LDM and Doc Thorne .
What you believe about the three maps which drew Waltz and show the same location ?
Why this location fit with all the LDM clues ?

Marius I don't think you will like or agree with my answers but you asked and I'll reply.

Both Waltz and Doc Thorne were protecting others.

The 3 maps (or however many) drawn by Waltz were meant to direct people away from the tunnel entrance.

The location fits with the clues to assure that people look in the wrong place.

 

[markmar]

chlsbrns

I believe Waltz was talking about Military trail in the Superstitions . Have you a military trail map of the Superstitions from that era ?

 

[txtea]

According to the 1860 trail map below and the story that Waltz could see the trail from the mine the mine has to be somewhere near Phoenix to Tempe to Mesa. That is unless the so called treasure map drawn by Waltz (and story) directed people away from the mine/tunnel entrance.

Is that an 1860 trail map overlaid on a newer one? I noticed Roosevelt Lake on there, and that wasn't built until 1911, I think, and then the Southern Pacific Railroad didn't come thru until 1878.
I don't see any Military trails going thru the mountains at all.

 

[chlsbrns]

The map is named 180 so I assume 1860 is the date. I'm also assuming that the Military trail is the shown trail because it's the only trail shown. I can try to find the map again and post a link.

The main problems with this story is that it's numerous stories. Who can verify anything?

Here is a link to a copy. The site doesn't know the date of the map.

http://www.experience-az.com/Maps/exazhistoricalmaps.html

 

[txtea]

The map is named 180 so I assume 1860 is the date. I'm also assuming that the Military trail is the shown trail because it's the only trail shown. I can try to find the map again and post a link.

The main problems with this story is that it's numerous stories. Who can verify anything?

Here is a link to a copy. The site doesn't know the date of the map.

Arizona Map - Experience AZ Adventure Map

Shoot, all we need is a time machine. I'll check Craigslist for one.

Think of all the things we could witness if we had one.....

 

[markmar]

Marius I don't think you will like or agree with my answers but you asked and I'll reply.

Both Waltz and Doc Thorne were protecting others.

The 3 maps (or however many) drawn by Waltz were meant to direct people away from the tunnel entrance.

The location fits with the clues to assure that people look in the wrong place.

chlsbrns

You will surprised if you will see how close to LDM is the ancient tunnel . But there are not ant/lizard people . This is Aztecs behavior .

 

[chlsbrns]

You have to consider that the story has been going around for over 100 years. There are so many versions. The Arizona Weekly Enterprise 1892 (I think 1892) has a story about Julia Thomas selling maps. I think $7 each. $7 was a lot of money back then. I think I'm going to find that Julia Thomas was part Hopi and the Mother of Waltz's child. Assuming that she was there when he died or just before he died and had been caring for him she would know where the mine was or should have been able to find the mine. Doesn't one of the stories go that she tried to find the mine but could not so she sold maps. She knew where the mine was and was selling bogus maps to lead people away from the mine and pocket $$.

 

[sgtfda]

You can look down upon a clear trail from the Pitt mine area.

 

[Springfield]

chrlsbrns, your ideas are interesting and you've obviously spent time on them. You are facing stiff resistance here because these Superstition legends are highly structured, and despite the inconsistencies and lack of real substance, staunchly defended. It's understandable and normal. If you approach with caution and provide reasonable backup to help support your claims, you may find that people will give your ideas a chance. The moderator will be gunning for you ... be careful. This LDM legend needs to move out of its nonproductive comfortable rut - if you have some meaty bones to chew on, let's see them.

 

[vastterrain]

So............what tribe was holding Doc Thorne and where were they camped?

This is a great question! ANYONE have an answer to this?

 

[Oroblanco]

Real de Tayopa wrote

I see that we both need some strong coffee, ORO will you do the honor.

No amigo, I don't try to encourage people that are trying to hijack and derail my thread. Coffee is for friends after all.

Real de Tayopa also wrote

Next you will be telling me that Atlantis doesn't exist -- It does, as Oro can tell you, just about were it is supposed to be.

May I ask what this has to do with the Lost Dutchman or Dr Thorn mine? sheesh amigo!


Springfield wrote

That's surprising - my working model is that the Peralta Stones are a complete diversion away from something of great value concealed in the central Arizona region. Of course, I could be wrong.

Any of us could be wrong amigo - and that diversion idea is a most interesting idea. I wonder if that was the true purpose?

Somero wrote

Ya really have to wonder what is going on sometimes.

How true, and yet it becomes painfully obvious in such a short time.

Markmar wrote

In Holmes manuscript , Waltz said to Holmes how the gold vein runs the mountain about four hundred feet , where it drops out in the bottom of a wash . I believe this clue , fit exactly with the Apache Jack clue about the uncovered gold vein in rose quartz which from my investigation is in a bottom of a wash .

Well the only description of the gold vein of Apache Jack that I have, describes it as black quartz with spots of gold in it like "stars in the night sky". This is the vein that John Chuning believed he had found, and mined in partnership with Sims Ely and Jim Bark. But I understand your position, thank you.

Txtea wrote

I'm here to learn about the possibility of the Doc Thorne event being tied in to the LDM. The connection between the two could be relevant to possibly solving the mystery of both.

Muchas gracias mi amigo Texas Tea - and a big Dakota HOWDY to you too! I hope you had a great holiday, thank you again. As you pointed out, there are parallels between the Dr Thorn and Jacob Waltz stories, and one could even make a case that the Doc Thorn mine is one and the same with the lost Adams, as some other treasure hunters have proposed a few years back.

Treasure Hunter thank you, and for the sake of information to any making assumptions, no I did not abandon this thread to go to another, I started a new discussion to bring out the debate over whether the Pit mine and LDM are the same, which a number of people have claimed or believe. I do not believe it is the LDM, but am willing to hear the arguments and look at any proof(s) presented. It is a separate question and deserves a thread dedicated to that subject.

For the info value of any, I do not have unlimited time to spend online, unlike some people, so there will always be some gap in time between posts from me. I am ignoring the person whom has been trying to hijack and derail the thread, so any further insults/attacks from that quarter are their own wasted time.

Somero wrote

So............what tribe was holding Doc Thorne and where were they camped?

Most versions have it as Apaches, specifically Coyoteros, though at least one version has it as Navajos. I believe it was Apaches, of the same semi-friendly band that Cpt Cooley encountered. At least two different locations have been suggested as their camp location, one being Queen creek and another being out on the plain west of the Superstitions.

Pippinwhitepaws wrote

my time is up...see you guys monday.

Good luck and good hunting amigo - I hope you will have good news to share by Monday!

Sgtfda wrote

You can look down upon a clear trail from the Pitt mine area.

Do you know if that visible trail was a military trail? Can I talk you into re-posting that clue in the Pit/LDM thread? Might help the case.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco