The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Oroblanco]

Hello Springfield,
Without telling me the exact location, may I ask if this site is in New Mexico? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

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[gollum]

Hey Springfield,

I found a couple of sources that put them in the region in the early 1500s! Just in time for the conquest!

"The Apache and Navajo (Diné) tribal groups of the American Southwest speak related languages of the language family referred to as Athabaskan. Southern Athabaskan peoples in North America fan out from west-central Canada where some Southern Athabaskan-speaking groups still reside. Linguistic similarities indicate the Navajo and Apache were once a single ethnic group. Archaeological and historical evidence suggests a recent entry of these people into the American Southwest, with substantial numbers not present until the early 1500s."

I know I have posted this picture before, but here is appropriate. It appears to be an Aztec Jaguar or Leopard carving that is well worn. I have an anthropologist friend that is dying to get out there to see what other Aztec stuff she can find:

This picture was taken in Southern Arizona, and was sent to me by another TNet Member.

Best,

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Oro ... yes, this site is in SW New Mexico. This site and the surrounding area (mile radius) has a number of very compelling carvings and is a hotbed of rumor and speculation regarding concealed valuables from days gone by.

Mike ... I agree with your timing of the Navajos' arrival, but the area inhabited by, let's say, the Chiricahua Apaches (generally the headwaters of the Gila and Salt Rivers south a couple hundred miles into the Sierra Madre in Mexico) was somewhat later - but close enough for our discussion I guess. Interestingly, some Apaches claim their people arrived in North America from the south, not the north, and assimilated the language when they got here. They claim no kinship with the Navajo. If I'm not mistaken, DNA analysis supports this theory, but I can't quote you the source.

 

[gollum]

If that's true that they came from the South, it would definitely account for the Aztec being friendly with them!

If the Navajo got there first, maybe the Aztecs carrying all that gold just stopped there. There are some similarities: The Apache were vicious, so were the Aztecs. Only problems with that is the Apache don't speak Nahuatl (The Aztec Language), and the Apache didn't care about gold, but the Aztecs loved it!

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello friends,
(Slipping my Mr Skeptic hat back on )

Without a clear tie-in to the Aztecs, or any Amerindian tribe, I cannot connect the Peralta stones to this version. I have not seen the film, perhaps there is a good connection we have failed to uncover though.

Not to lend support to the legend of Aztec gold buried in Apacheria, or anywhere in the USA, but the Aztecs and even the Mayans further south were in fact trading with tribes residing in what is today AZ and NM, specifically turquoise and several other trade goods. Having good trade relations might explain why Aztecs would choose to hide their gold in what is today the US, but if you think about it that is not the best explanation really - for these were tribes they were trading with, not allied with. We trade with China today, do you suppose that if our nation were being conquered that we would choose to secret our Constitution and Declaration of Independence in China, or some other country with which we are more closely allied?

(Whew now I can take that un-comfortable Skeptic hat back off! )
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

The Apache might have revered it, and called it Tears of the Sun, but they never used it for ornamentation or dress. The reason being, they travelled a LOT. Gold is only something a civilization that is stationary uses. It's way too heavy to be dragging around from camp to camp.

The Apache used things that were lighter, and easier carry. Gold is not something nomadic or semi-nomadic peoples valued much in their daily lives, even though it may have had some religious significance.

Best,

Mike

 

[Springfield]

The Apaches had no use for gold. You are correct, Mrs. O, they referred to gold nuggets as "Tears of Ussen", but gold was not "sacred" to them as we understand the term - it was merely to be avoided and certainly never to be used as adornment or collected for trade (although this did occur out of desperation in the 1880's when they sorely needed ammunition). Eve Ball's truly outstanding books provide the Apache point of view of this and many other interesting topics. The Apaches killed a whole lot of prospectors and miners, yes, but even though they were disgusted by the white-eyes' grovelling in the earth for gold, their motivation for violence was primarily for self-preservation and revenge for previous wrong-doings of those who were taking over their homeland - they were freedom fighters, not protectors of gold deposits.

Adams Diggings? There are way too many versions about it (I have at least a dozen, mostly all conflicting with each other), to make any solid judgement about the legend. Whatever events precipitated the Lost Adams legend are probably totally different than what the world has believed since the 1860's. Like the LDM, what we think we know is most likely disinformation.


Oro, I too am skeptical of the tie-in with the Peralta Stones with the so-called Montezuma's Treasure. But then, I am skeptical of both legends separately too. In the case of Montezuma's Treasure, there is no reference to the "hide-it-in-North-America" legend in any documentation except for TH mags and books and numerous internet rantings. Even the Freddy Crystal story has no solid basis other than a couple local contemporary newspaper articles based on ... what? If I'm wrong here, please provide me with some red meat (TH rags don't count). This is a great example of pure BS, IMO.

Peralta Stones? Come on ... this whole scam makes no sense. You've dissected the topic at length already, Oro. Of course, I could be in error, but the whole thing stinks, IMO. Nice carvings, lots of publicity, blah, blah, blah. Have you ever wondered why we seem to be privy to such monumental secrets (Montezuma's stash, Lost Adams, Lost Dutchman, Peralta Maps, etc., etc.)? Why would we assume that we would be receiving anything close to the truth if indeed there was any truth at all to these legends? Use your noodles, boys and girls. We humans are so easily misled, especially when the hook is an emotional one, such as greed, fear, etc. - we'll swallow damn near anything.

 

[Springfield]

Randy ... OK, I'll bite. Why do you say these maps are real', and what is really up there? And, more to the point ... how do you know these things?

 

[Springfield]

Randy ... that's a reasonable theory - altered maps. Most/all TH information in the public domain is essentially worthless, IMO (other than something fun to speculate about). Of course this begs the question, why do you believe the stones are altered? I tend to agree with you that there is a bigger story in those hills than the so-called LDM, which blossomed from a hidden rich mine rumor into a religion for generations of frustrated searchers (similar to the Lost Adams in a way) and a virtual cottage industry for TH writers and the citizens of Apache Junction. Are you hinting that there is another target other than the LDM?

 

[gollum]

Two thing actually connected them:

1. The "DON" Stone as well as the Spanish writing, gave it the Spanish/Mexican flavor

2. The almost illegible name "PEDRO" inscribed on the horse's flank on the "HORSE" Stone

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello friends,
I only wish to point out that those wild Apaches were actually pretty far from being "savages" even though they were fierce and pitiless fighters. You can choose to dis-believe the Adams tale of having made an agreement with Chief Nana allowing the Adams party to mine within a specific area, but similar agreements are a matter of record. Cochise made an agreement NOT to attack or molest first the US mail, then stagecoaches - DURING a war with the US! The Apaches were very good at sticking to the agreement, even though their form of "government" was that of near total individual freedom. Other Amerindian tribes exhibited surprising "reasonable" attitudes toward the Europeans love for gold, such as the Souix and Cheyenne tribes showed following the discovery of gold in the Black Hills - we ALL remember the ensuing war for the hills, (with several large engagements, some of the largest in all of the Indian wars including Custer's famous last stand) but before the US government issued the ultimatum and then regarded all Indians who failed to come in to the reservations as "hostiles" even some of the most intractible war chiefs had proposed ideas such as allowing the whites to come and mine gold, but had to leave when the gold ran out, or of the whites paying a "royalty" on the gold produced and so forth. Hollywood loves to portray the Amerindians as either barbarous, heartless savages or as noble red men defending their hearths and homes, but the reality lay somewhere between. They were human beings with intellect, showed patience, could be very reasonable and were very good at sticking to the many treaties signed with the USA - (of course some were broken by the Amerindians too) while on the other hand were capable of great courage and incredible fortitude (whites expressed amazement at how "tough" even severely wounded Indian warriors could be, which led some to theorize that they must be sub-human and "insensible" to pain) and to the Amerindian, war meant absolute war, a battle was not over while any enemy still drew breath, and even babies were fair game. Some young ones might be captured and adopted into the tribe, but if an infant squalled too much on the march to home, the warrior thought nothing of simply swinging the baby by the heels and smashing the skull against a convenient tree or rock. Atrocities were committed on both sides of the horrible Indian wars, which were in reality Civil wars, with many instances of both sides of the conflict being armed and equipped by the same government!

Anyway just wanted to point out that there is no reason to dis-believe the report of Adams and the other survivor that an agreement had been reached with Chief Nana allowing the party to mine, which the Adams party then broke and paid the price for. Chief Nana was one of the most capable Apache war chiefs of all, his last raid is still taught in West Point as an example of guerilla warfare at its finest. Nana may be one of the more intractible foes of the 'white men' (and the 'black white men' as well) but was an intelligent and even reasonable person. We have no reason to suppose that he would have refused to make the agreement with Adams, nor that he would have punished the party with death for breaking the agreement.

I would not classify all the old tales of lost mines and buried treasure as worthless - while most probably do have some fatal flaw in the directions or location, remember this is not necessarily true and a majority of lost mines (for instance) are fairly well documented. In one case, a mine in Colorado was even studied by the US bureau of mines (and a paper published on it) and later LOST never to be found again! The old stories even have value as simple entertainment, and make great stories. In the Peralta legends I find the exception, as it is not well documented, little evidence to support even the tale of their secret lost gold mines in the Superstitions cannot be traced beyond Bicknell's articles which date after the time of the death of Jacob Waltz. Waltz is very well documented as a real person who really sold a considerable amount of gold, and we can even see a piece of the ore today. Of course a prospector might do better to just go out and search new ground without trying to track down some lost mine, but in prospecting it is usually good practice to search where the mineral sought has been produced in past, and with a lost mine you may well find a good rich vein or 'glory hole' to reward your efforts. Personally I think your best chance of ever finding any lost mine is to use the same ordinary methods used to prospect for a NON-lost mine, panning out samples, taking ore samples from any veins or ledges of quartz etc and have them fire assayed etc. That way even if you fail to find the lost mine, you may well discover a NEW deposit of paying quality! Remember that over 90% of new mineral discoveries are made by individual prospectors, not the huge mining companies. Anyway good luck and good hunting.

Oroblanco

PS I have been studying the "Heart" stone and now am fairly sure this is a genuine article; it even has visible cracks which hint of considerable age. Whether it has anything to do with any gold in the Superstitions remains to be seen; it could be a "map" to some quite different location - like the Goldfield district, for example.

 

[gollum]

Mrs. Oro is correct.

One thing to say about the Jesuit theory; if it is true, then it means that nothing is left where the maps led to. Why do I say that?

The fact that EVERY stone that was part of the secret map was found in the same hole! It's no leap of logic to think that if the stones originally led to a buried cache, that someone dug it up, and not needing the stones any more, dropped them in a hole on their way out of the mountains (on their way back into Mexico). Look at a map carefully. If you locate the area where the stones were found (along the 60 between Florence Junction and Apache Junction, by Queen Creek), you will see it is in an almost straight line to Tuscon and Mission San Xavier del Bac (which was the MOST travelled route of the late 1600s and early 1700s).

The only reason I can see for all the stones being together in the same place, would be that they were no longer useful! Seems to me that the first three stones may have been left hidden in the area, but the heart stone would have been carried out as long as something was still hidden!

I think that if the stones are real, whatever they originally led to is LOOOOOOOONG GONE!

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Dang Gollum - that is one SUPER reason NOT to want to spend one's time using the maps as a guide to go hiking up into the Superstitions. My feeble brain never considered that possibility, that a hidden cache was what the stone maps led to, and they were in fact used successfully - leaving NOTHING for us to find today. In that case, they could be ALL genuine, and of historical significance etc but would be a waste of time to try to find what they led to. That scenario also would be a very good explanation as to why they were all in the same spot - they were DONE using them and had no need to haul around heavy stones anymore.

I still am intrigued by that heart stone, and wonder what it might have been a clue to, if it were genuine and not related to the other three?
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Re Superstition Mountains: are any of you guys familiar with the Heart Mountain Project?

Yes, Mr & Mrs Oro ... the Lost Adams. We could go on and on about the many aspects of this one. Boy, what a can of worms. This isn't the place for that, however. If you want a lesson in the fallibility of lost mine stories, get yourself a copy of Jack Purcell's book on the subject.

 

[azmula]

Black Beard;
Good observation about the San Pedro River, it is the preferred route to follow from the Missions to the south and depending on the time of year the river would offer a good water supply for large pack trains straight to the Superstitions. As I have stated before the route along the San Pedro is part of the Horse Map.

Oroblanco;
Father Kino and other priests began converting the Apaches and were welcomed in their villages around the Superstitions until the relationship was destroyed by the betrayal and murder of their prime Apache supporter. So obtaining slaves for the many mines in the Superstitions was easy for the priests prior to the killing.

Ms. Oroblanco;
Do you know the “old” Spanish meaning for DON? “Consider mineral gift” When it was written as a title it appeared as “don” in the writings of the time.

Gollum;
What you say is true, it the maps were found as Tumlinson told. However, consider an alternate solution. The maps were carved by a Jesuit, buried in the dirt floor under the priest’s bed, found in the mission residence, and stolen in the middle 1800’s. They were sold to an Anglo in El Paso. In this scenario, not only do we have maps leading to several caches of treasure, but also we know the key to the map solution (1847), which is not a date. Note: There is a set of photos that were taken prior to their being placed in the museum.

azmula

 

[gollum]

Hey Azmula,

Yes, I actually alluded to that story previously. Travis Tumlinson's father was nicknamed "Pegleg". That was who Travis was on the way home from visiting when he found the stones.

I would need to see a Jesuit's letter or statement about the stones being stolen before I would take that story seriously.

Although, it does lay to rest many of the arguments about the stones. They didn't look like they were buried for a hundred years. Why were they all buried in the same hole? Why didn't Reavis use them? How are they related to the Peraltas? Lot's of questions answered.

Show me the statement by the Jesuit that says the stones were stolen from him.

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI: Mrs Oro is quite correct on the "DON" thingie.

On the heart stone,will someone please tell me how they managed to remove/cut the heart from the stone??

p.s.I will not appreciate it if someone simply tells me it is from a different stone :> D heheheh.

Till Eulenspiegle de la mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello friends,
Gosh now to tie in Jesuits with these stones and the Peraltas we are going out further on the limb. Perhaps some are not aware of it, but the king of Spain had ALL of the Jesuits physically removed from Spanish lands in 1767 - which would mean the date on the stones is eighty years AFTER the last Jesuits were in Arizona, and we then have to find SOME clear traces of Jesuit activities in the Superstitions. I have seen Jesuit maps and read letters, "relacions" etc and while there IS some hint of some kind of activity in the Catalinas near Tucson, there is no mention of any activity in the Superstitions. We are forced to start taking some rather large "leaps of faith" to associate the Jesuits with these stones.

I still fail to connect even the massacre with Mexicans, Spaniards or Anglos for that matter - for in those old records we can search today, there are reports of numerous Indian attacks and missing parties etc in which cases the authorities would send out military forces to at least bury the dead. I can find no such report of any missing group in the Superstitions, not even close to 25. If someone could show me where a party numbering close to the 25 figure that was reported missing in the Superstitions near the date of 1847-8 I could allow that the massacre COULD be Mexicans or Spaniards - however since there is no report known, the conclusion of two out of the three persons who first found them seems the likely answer to me - that they were an unlucky group of Pimas. Otherwise we have to ask just why the surviving Peralta didn't notify the nearby presidios? I can't buy that he would not tell the military to keep those mines a secret, after all they were already so secret they needed a map to find them again.

Dang it but I don't want to irritate you Tropical Tramp - but my money is on the origin of the "heart" stone being a separate stone, that was probably almost heart shaped to begin with, and the one we see that has a hollow cut for it is done by setting the heart stone on top, drawing the outline then chiseling out the rock (really more likely in this case to have been power tools in my opinion) so that the heart stone will fit in. We even have a direct hint of this being fraud, in the wording on the one stone "busca del mappa" or "hunt for map"? Yep hunt for map alright, since these are not going to help you find it. The heart stone doesn't even look like the same type of stone that the "hollowed out" stone is, and the heart stone has age and stress cracks in it which hint of some age - while the other three look just too "new" for my eye. If you look at the two stones put together, the fit is imperfect (not too big a problem) but they look like quite different types of stone and different ages as well. This is sure to ruff some feathers with some folks, but please consider this is MY personal opinion, and make no claim to being some kind of an expert, and am judging solely from photos not from an examination in hand. I do have some experience with stone inscriptions (including some of great age) which is perhaps why these never did look quite right to me. I won't mind eating my words if they are proven genuine.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Hey Jose,

Yes! The Heart Stone is not even from the same type of rock as the Map Stone it fits in! The heart stone is made from a harder granitic type of stone, while the Map Stone it fits in is made of sandstone.

I believe that I read somewhere that the type of rock the Heart Stone is made of doesn't exist in that part of AZ.

Oro,

Who's to say he didn't go into the nearest town? It's very possible that he kept quiet about the raid on their party! After all, by the 1840s, most of their silver mines in Sonora were played out. Who knows?

Best,

Mike

 

[Aurum]

Azmula, Mrs. Oroblanco,

you are both part right and part wrong,

the title of respect "Don" is still used today, especially in families of long history and heritage.

the word "don" "DON" alone is meaningless unless written in a sentence with it's companion such as, mineral or Holy, etc.

but in the context of the stone map on which the word DON , appears to stand alone, in fact, it does NOT stand alone, but stands as a part of the overall map which itself is the directions to a great mineral wealth (supposedly). It's meaning being coded, as the rest of the map itself is coded. Thus the word "don" "DON" in this particular case, is a companion of the other side of the map which is the directions to (a gift) of the maker of the map. There can be no other explanation for the word "DON" being included on the map (stone).

It is the CONTEXT in which the word is used that must be looked at (as must everything else on the stone) , not it's gramatical use in the formal classroom.

Aurum