the priest map or witch map

[wrmickel1]

Who, 30 generations passed, really. I'm gonna have to call bullshit on that.

Wrmickel1

 

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[EarnieP]

EarnieP

Just as long as second water I guess. Your point is. I don't know. [emoji3]

Your mixing Dutchman clues in to the PSM's
That don't work because the Dutchman never had them. I never spent a day looking for the Dutchman's mine. And the Stones never mention first or second water. That part of the problem with finding your mark!

I'm pretty hardcore if it's not physical there it's not a clue. The whole system is faith based. Now how would a heathen like me do it. That's might be the key, because (HINT)
Those furthest from God are the closes to God. A black magic priest, A pig to mark a mine, The alter outside a mine. These were all things to use to keep a priest Holly, yet still conduct the churches will on the fringes of a sin.

Wrmickel1

Hello Wrmickel, No I'm not trying to tie the Dutchman to the Stones, just trying to narrow down the earliest dates of the term (name) "First Water".

If you don't know what the symbols on the Stones represent, then you can't say First Water is not represented on them. (Not that I think they are, just speculation for the fun of it.)

You lost me with saying all clues must be physical but at the same time "the whole system is faith based"?
Not sure where you're heading but it is interesting, please proceed.

 

[azdave35]

Hello Wrmickel, No I'm not trying to tie the Dutchman to the Stones, just trying to narrow down the earliest dates of the term (name) "First Water".

If you don't know what the symbols on the Stones represent, then you can't say First Water is not represented on them. (Not that I think they are, just speculation for the fun of it.)

You lost me with saying all clues must be physical but at the same time "the whole system is faith based"?
Not sure where you're heading but it is interesting, please proceed.

earnie...just a guess...but if the dutchman used first water as a landmark to his mine..i would say he meant "the first place to get water" as opposed to a place called first water

 

[EarnieP]

earnie...just a guess...but if the dutchman used first water as a landmark to his mine..i would say he meant "the first place to get water" as opposed to a place called first water

Yep, I'm thinking that's most likely how "First Water" got it's name.
(But first water on the way to what?)

Kind of like "Last Chance Canyon". (Usually 'last chance for water', shortened down over time to "Last Chance".)

 

[nobodie]

They still protect sacred ground today, you can't build anything on it or do anything to disturb it.

 

[azdave35]

Yep, I'm thinking that's most likely how "First Water" got it's name.
(But first water on the way to what?)

Kind of like "Last Chance Canyon". (Usually 'last chance for water', shortened down over time to "Last Chance".)

springs and water holes dry up over the years ....what waltz called first water might have dried up 80 years ago

 

[EarnieP]

Yes, that is possible, and he could have certainly been talking about a completely different watering place (if he talked at all about such things).

Then again, Jacob was scrambling over the Superstition not all that long ago in the scheme of things. And it's just as possible (maybe more so) that he was referring (if he referred at all) to the same 'First Water' we have today.

All speculation on my part...

After all, didn't the old Dutchman supposedly take Julia into the Sups through 1st Water, camping at Second Water saying they were easily within a days hike of his mine?

Maybe a hand drawn map of that time period of that area might use a 1 and a 2 to designate such watering holes.

 

[azdave35]

Yes, that is possible, and he could have certainly been talking about a completely different watering place (if he talked at all about such things).

Then again, Jacob was scrambling over the Superstition not all that long ago in the scheme of things. And it's just as possible (maybe more so) that he was referring (if he referred at all) to the same 'First Water' we have today.

All speculation on my part...

earnie..IMO the clues julia and the petrash's got from waltz were pretty much worthless...

 

[wrmickel1]

Hello Wrmickel, No I'm not trying to tie the Dutchman to the Stones, just trying to narrow down the earliest dates of the term (name) "First Water".

If you don't know what the symbols on the Stones represent, then you can't say First Water is not represented on them. (Not that I think they are, just speculation for the fun of it.)

You lost me with saying all clues must be physical but at the same time "the whole system is faith based"?
Not sure where you're heading but it is interesting, please proceed.

I do know what the symbols mean, Some I can't find in the field physically, might just be do to time. Others are there, but do to time they will be gone to. But for the most part I got the drift of it. As far as faith based, the system was built around faith in God not to commit a Sin. Like a cave found full of shoe's, Why! There is a reason for that you just don't leave your shoes behind.

Wrmickel1

 

[EarnieP]

Dave any idea what route the Spanish used taking the King's Fifth out of the (now) Arizona area?

Wonder if they floated it down the Salt, to the Gila, the Colorado and out the Sea of Cortez onward.
Are there any old establish trails from the area of the Fifth's discovery site to the nearest good river entry point?
Or was there an establish overland route better suited?

Just wondering why they would use a stash point in the Goldfield area unless the mines were fairly close, or was just a more secure area.

 

[azdave35]

Dave any idea what route the Spanish used taking the King's Fifth out of the (now) Arizona area?

Wonder if they floated it down the Salt, to the Gila, the Colorado and out the Sea of Cortez onward.
Are there any old establish trails from the area of the Fifth's discovery site to the nearest good river entry point?
Or was there an establish overland route better suited?

Just wondering why they would use a stash point in the Goldfield area unless the mines were fairly close, or was just a more secure area.

earnie..the salt river is about 6 miles north of the treasure site..pretty much a straight shot to the river..the Apache trail is cut through there...i'm sure the treasure was from nearby mines as there were many rich gold and silver mines in the area..also some rich placer in those days

 

[EarnieP]

earnie..the salt river is about 6 miles north of the treasure site..pretty much a straight shot to the river..the Apache trail is cut through there...i'm sure the treasure was from nearby mines as there were many rich gold and silver mines in the area..also some rich placer in those days

The Spanish kept very good records.
Somewhere must be a written record of those shipments out of the Arizona area to the Spanish King.

Wish Hal was back!

 

[Oroblanco]

EarnieP,
There are a tremendous amount of overland routes that the kings men went on to recover the kings fifth in AZ, from the Colorado river to Phoenix is especially loaded with storages, even going to Prescott there are markers and Storages everywhere, anybody living in Phoenix or Prescott AZ is living in the middle of some of the best treasure hunting country in the world, but for some reason people in AZ are not interested in finding treasure other than in the Superstitions.

You can count me among those willing and happy to search outside of the aforementioned mountains, with all their numerous tourist-hikers and strict regulations. Heck the evidence is pretty strong in a number of other areas, you can literally stand in the old mines and walk the Spanish ox-cart trails in some places. It seems that it could be profitable to widen one's search venue, and some of us would be more than happy to discuss some of these other options, however it would probably require a new thread outside of the LDM sub-forum. Anyway I agree with your post 100%, and would suggest to widen that search area to also include most of New Mexico and California and into Sonora & Chihuahua. The Royal Road in NM is one example of many.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

morning Sandy, ^ don't forget the Caballo mt. in New Mexico and as usual one for oro

 

[sdcfia]

EarnieP,
There are a tremendous amount of overland routes that the kings men went on to recover the kings fifth in AZ, from the Colorado river to Phoenix is especially loaded with storages, even going to Prescott there are markers and Storages everywhere, anybody living in Phoenix or Prescott AZ is living in the middle of some of the best treasure hunting country in the world, but for some reason people in AZ are not interested in finding treasure other than in the Superstitions.

You really ought to educate yourself on the history of Spanish mining in the New Word, vis-a-vis the laws and customs that the mining contractors worked under during the colonial period, especially on and beyond the northern frontier. I provided a number of links to documents and contemporary reports in a previous TNet thread a year or two ago. I don't have the link to that thread - you'll have to find it on your own if you're interested in the truth. You are doing readers a disservice by continuing to assert that the "King's men" travelled all over the southwest "retrieving" his fifth share. That's not the way he collected it.

While you're at it, try to understand who organized, equipped, paid for, and executed the mining expeditions - paying special attention to the logistics required. You will then realize that the mining contractors had much richer and easier pickings in central and northern Mexico, with no particular reason to venture perhaps a thousand miles beyond any semblance of civilization. There were a handful of genuine "Spanish" operations in North America, yes, but those that were successful certainly did not leave their bullion behind. Why would they? And can you really expect people to believe the King would allow for his share to be left in the wilderness, requiring a dangerous and expensive expedition to retrieve it?

There is treasure to be found in the Southwest, yes, but it didn't belong to the King of Spain.

 

[azdave35]

You really ought to educate yourself on the history of Spanish mining in the New Word, vis-a-vis the laws and customs that the mining contractors worked under during the colonial period, especially on and beyond the northern frontier. I provided a number of links to documents and contemporary reports in a previous TNet thread a year or two ago. I don't have the link to that thread - you'll have to find it on your own if you're interested in the truth. You are doing readers a disservice by continuing to assert that the "King's men" travelled all over the southwest "retrieving" his fifth share. That's not the way he collected it.

While you're at it, try to understand who organized, equipped, paid for, and executed the mining expeditions - paying special attention to the logistics required. You will then realize that the mining contractors had much richer and easier pickings in central and northern Mexico, with no particular reason to venture perhaps a thousand miles beyond any semblance of civilization. There were a handful of genuine "Spanish" operations in North America, yes, but those that were successful certainly did not leave their bullion behind. Why would they? And can you really expect people to believe the King would allow for his share to be left in the wilderness, requiring a dangerous and expensive expedition to retrieve it?

There is treasure to be found in the Southwest, yes, but it didn't belong to the King of Spain.

i have all the education i need....and it didn't come from reading books or following links online ..it came from experience....and examining the markings on recovered treasure...they tell me all i need to know

 

[wrmickel1]

Well now you examined the markings, So your treasure was bullion or.coins. So you must have noted if it was Silver.

Wrmickel1

 

[EarnieP]

i have all the education i need....and it didn't come from reading books or following links online ..it came from experience....and examining the markings on recovered treasure...they tell me all i need to know

Morning Dave,

If you heard a rumor about a new fantastic restaurant opening in your town, but you didn't know the address.
Is it better to look up the listed address (read, educate yourself), or just head out the front door and hope your experience will guide you there?

Just yanking your chain. Hope all is well with you.
EarnieP

 

[sdcfia]

Excellent post, sdcfia.
I think if you click on Sandy's link you'll get a clear picture of his conclusions.

Yeah, thanks EP, but I've been there and done that. I'm not in that club.

 

[sdcfia]

i have all the education i need....

Must be nice, azd. Me, I'll likely never have all the knowledge I need.