The Two Soldiers

[Javaone]

Whoa now!

I thank you all for your input! Seems like I will have to do a lot more research about the two soldiers ... if they existed at all!
What I did think was that it might be another approach as the Waltz->Julia/Petrasch/Holmes seems to have played itself out, there doesn't seem to be any more gained from that approach.
That being said - my first gut feeling was that Waltz may have come across remnants from the massacre - if that really happened *lol* so much uncertainty about it all!
However, I do appreciate the way you have all ditched in for a (almost) complete newbie - thank you!

And 'cactusjumper' - you have always been rather special to me - I bow to your extensive knowledge though I don't always agree with you! *smile*. I hope that I one day will be able to actually meet with you ...

Hmmm_Certainly a possibility?… Not a popular one in my summation, but_ what if…

Loke, that thingy about cactusjumper… Kind of scary… just sayin. hehe

 

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[Oroblanco]

Incidentally,... I found the bones of the deer they shot.

That PROVES IT! Case closed.



Loke - Scotch, and you didn't offer to share? What did I do to so offend you amigo?

 

[cactusjumper]

Javaone,

I always thought I was "rather special" to everyone. Are you saying it ain't so?

Anyone who want's the files I have on Panknin or The Two Soldiers, only needs to ask, and I will email them to you.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Javaone]

 

[Loke]

Loke - Scotch, and you didn't offer to share? What did I do to so offend you amigo?

Well now - if you were actually _here_, you'd be more than welcome - always keep a repository of Scotch Single Malt - he he
(Hey - Tropical Tramp - d'ye hear? Scotch - not Oirish!!!)
Alas - since it is a tad difficult to administer over the net - you just have to be satisfied with the thought! ... and if you think real hard about it, you just may imagine you can smell it ** taking another sip ...**
Ahhh - there's no joy like make others envious!! ;-)

Per

 

[Loke]

Anyone who want's the files I have on Panknin or The Two Soldiers, only needs to ask, and I will email them to you.

Take care,

Joe

Ahhh - may I be as bold as to ask for what you have on the two soldiers?

Per

 

[Javaone]

Ok Now... Back on topic.

When the “two soldiers” were given provisions to go back into the Supes, was there any mention of the number of days worth of provisions they were given?

Working on my theory here…_OK, _it might relate to a theory of Oro’s too.

 

[Oroblanco]

Loke - Scotch, and you didn't offer to share? What did I do to so offend you amigo?

Well now - if you were actually _here_, you'd be more than welcome - always keep a repository of Scotch Single Malt - he he
(Hey - Tropical Tramp - d'ye hear? Scotch - not Oirish!!!)
Alas - since it is a tad difficult to administer over the net - you just have to be satisfied with the thought! ... and if you think real hard about it, you just may imagine you can smell it ** taking another sip ...**
Ahhh - there's no joy like make others envious!! ;-)

Per

By Jupiter Per, you DO have a little mean streak!

Ok Now... Back on topic.

When the “two soldiers” were given provisions to go back into the Supes, was there any mention of the number of days worth of provisions they were given?

Working on my theory here…_OK, _it might relate to a theory of Oro’s too.

Mason expected the two boys to be back in ten days. I don't recall seeing a mention of how much provisions they had, but three burros were used to carry their provisions and equipment if that helps.
Roy

 

[Javaone]

Ok Now... Back on topic.

When the “two soldiers” were given provisions to go back into the Supes, was there any mention of the number of days worth of provisions they were given?

Working on my theory here…_OK, _it might relate to a theory of Oro’s too.

Mason expected the two boys to be back in ten days. I don't recall seeing a mention of how much provisions they had, but three burros were used to carry their provisions and equipment if that helps.
Roy

Sooo,... From where they loaded up, how far could they get and return (we are talking about the Supes, back then) in 10 days?

 

[Loke]

Ok Now... Back on topic.

When the “two soldiers” were given provisions to go back into the Supes, was there any mention of the number of days worth of provisions they were given?

Working on my theory here…_OK, _it might relate to a theory of Oro’s too.

Mason expected the two boys to be back in ten days. I don't recall seeing a mention of how much provisions they had, but three burros were used to carry their provisions and equipment if that helps.
Roy

Sooo - if that was the case, how come we are not talking about the Superstitions? I must agree with (ooops - my memory fails me yet again - maybe BB) someone who said that there must've been a lot of lies by many people for it not to be true ...
Is this another case of maybe several instances morphing into one?
Is there any proof at all that the story of the two soldiers _in the Superstitions_ is a true one? (notwithstanding that it may also be about Sierra Anchas)

Per

 

[Javaone]

Sooo - if that was the case, how come we are not talking about the Superstitions? I must agree with (ooops - my memory fails me yet again - maybe BB) someone who said that there must've been a lot of lies by many people for it not to be true ...
Is this another case of maybe several instances morphing into one?
Is there any proof at all that the story of the two soldiers _in the Superstitions_ is a true one? (notwithstanding that it may also be about Sierra Anchas)

Per

Hey! Careful with that "beetlejuice" word. It's kind of nice here now...

 

[Oroblanco]

Our amigo Javaone wrote

Sooo,... From where they loaded up, how far could they get and return (we are talking about the Supes, back then) in 10 days?

That hinges on how far a man can travel on horseback per day. The fact that Mason expected it to take TEN days actually suggests they were traveling farther than any spot in the Superstitions at all, some people can hike (on foot) from the Salt river to the highway in a single day, and on horseback you can travel farther.

..and our friend Loke wrote

Sooo - if that was the case, how come we are not talking about the Superstitions? I must agree with (ooops - my memory fails me yet again - maybe BB) someone who said that there must've been a lot of lies by many people for it not to be true ...
Is this another case of maybe several instances morphing into one?
Is there any proof at all that the story of the two soldiers _in the Superstitions_ is a true one? (notwithstanding that it may also be about Sierra Anchas)

Well, I respectfully disagree on there being a pack of lies and liars, an ERROR can be spread around just as fast and through as many mouths without any deliberate attempt to fool anyone being involved.

There are actually a number of instances where more than one lost mine story may well be talking about the very same mine, just "discovered" by different persons, perhaps coming in to the mine from different directions. Offhand, just for an example, the Lost Pick, Lost Black Maverick, Lost Bronco and several others were all describing an eighteen inch vein of white quartz, a rusted pick stuck in the rock, a cabin, a covered mine, in a canyon. Here in my backyard the lost Raspberry, lost Headless Horseman, and lost Brewer all appear to be the same mine.

Got to sign off, hopefully will 'stop by' tomorrow - wish you all a very pleasant evening.
Roy
Roy

 

[Loke]

@ Oroblanco

Lost Pick

OMG - don't tell me you are into that one as well? That is also one of my absolute favourites - being situated 10 mins away from where my daughter once lived ... he, he - it's a small world!


As for the "10 days" - would that not also incorporate a certain amount of 'mining'? ie. it was not 5 days there and 5 days back - might as well have been "8 hours there, 8 days of digging, 8 hours back" - which would put them squarely in the Supe's

Per

 

[cactusjumper]

Per,

Two email's are on the way.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Javaone]

@ Oroblanco

Lost Pick

OMG - don't tell me you are into that one as well? That is also one of my absolute favourites - being situated 10 mins away from where my daughter once lived ... he, he - it's a small world!


As for the "10 days" - would that not also incorporate a certain amount of 'mining'? ie. it was not 5 days there and 5 days back - might as well have been "8 hours there, 8 days of digging, 8 hours back" - which would put them squarely in the Supe's

Per

Also, if they weren't quite sure exactly where it was, they were given 10 days worth to allow extra time to find it again. It is, however, hard to imagine that Mason didn't insist on sending a couple of extra guys with them.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Just listening. I have absolutely no data on them except what I have read in here. As for tempting mi morals with booze sheesh Incidentally, the 10 days remark has no effective value, so relax.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Loke wrote

As for the "10 days" - would that not also incorporate a certain amount of 'mining'? ie. it was not 5 days there and 5 days back - might as well have been "8 hours there, 8 days of digging, 8 hours back" - which would put them squarely in the Supe's

..and Real de Tayopa replied

Incidentally, the 10 days remark has no effective value, so relax.

I have to disagree with both statements; remember the only thing those two soldiers needed to do at the mine was to erect the claim monuments and return to register the claim; Ely calculated four days for the to-and-from journey and six days for setting the monuments, which in my opinion is far too much time allowed for the simple staking out of a claim. I suspect that Ely calculated it that way in order to make it correspond with the four days time for the trip to and from the mine we get from Waltz and Weiser versions, which was to get to Adams Mill which is not far from Florence. I think they were allowing four days travel each way, and just a day or two for setting the monuments. They were on horseback when they left, so could travel farther. That amounts to perhaps 100 miles away from Silver King. Still think this would put it squarely in the Superstitions?
Oroblanco

PS the fact that the two soldiers left on horseback, and were (according to the swamper story) then pursued by a man with a club foot ON FOOT who overtook and then murdered them is one of the details that really makes the story very doubtful to me. Ever try to catch a man on horseback, while you are afoot and they have a bit of head start? It is not impossible of course, but now think of a man with a club foot, whose walking gait was directly affected and quite noticeable to everyone who saw him. I just can't buy it.

 

[Loke]

@Oroblanco
First off - it depends whether you are talking about TX-miles or US-miles ;-)
(It is generally believed that everything is bigger in TX - but according to my neighbour's wife - that's not true! - nuff said)

However - when you put it like that - it's difficult to disagree ...
But - may I ask for the source of the fact that all they were going to do was to stake it (and not do any digging)?
I can't remember ever having seen that - but that in itself means zilch. If I read something and it rings a bell with me there and then - I'll remember it - if not, it's forgotten 2 hours later *lol*

Per

 

[Oroblanco]

@Oroblanco
First off - it depends whether you are talking about TX-miles or US-miles ;-)
(It is generally believed that everything is bigger in TX - but according to my neighbour's wife - that's not true! - nuff said)

However - when you put it like that - it's difficult to disagree ...
But - may I ask for the source of the fact that all they were going to do was to stake it (and not do any digging)?
I can't remember ever having seen that - but that in itself means zilch. If I read something and it rings a bell with me there and then - I'll remember it - if not, it's forgotten 2 hours later *lol*

Per

Sims Ely is my source for the part on the ten days, and that it would be staking out of two claims side-by-side. Ely also has it as "25 miles" from Silver King, which I wonder about; could it have meant 25 miles per day? I can't seem to find a decent map that I can illustrate here what our issues are, but even the 25 mile figure can take you out of the Superstitions.

Actually this brings up one of those inconsistencies in Ely that I should post in the other thread.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Ralph,

As I understand it, all of the different versions of the Bark Notes are essentially the same.....in content. The difference is in how they are formatted. All of the versions I have tell the same Joe Deering story. Nowhere in that story is there any mention of the Two Soldiers.

In addition, there is no mention of his waiting for a partner. On the other hand, his one year agreement with someone in Colorado, who had grubstaked him, was due to run out in 1-month. Even though he had found the mine in that one-year period, he was going to sit on the find and, basically, cheat that partner out of his fair share.

I would guess that some of the "conversations" that Ely injected into his stories might have been literary license. This story is one of the places where Bark and Ely tell markedly different tales. You will have to choose your own trail here.

Remember this from the Bark Notes, "One of them put his hand in his coat pocket pulled out a handfull of nuggets, and asked Mason what that was". There are conflicting stories as to just how much that "handfull" was worth. "Mason told them that they could trade it in at the company store up at the King, for sixty dollars and ounce." What we do know, is that gold was worth $16-$18 an ounce in those days.

Ely's account on the "ten days" is totally different than what Bark wrote:

"The two ex-soldiers then struck out for the mine and again told Mason that they would not be gone over ten days."

Take care,

Joe