The Two Soldiers

I have to agree with most of what Springfield said. I don't know that the percentage of TH'ers who have actually found something is 99% BS, but I agree that it is a very high percentage. I was so disappointed after I first got started doing this as I found out time and again that the people I so loved to read their stories were known liars. It broke my heart! HAHAHA

Best-Mike
 

Paul,

"Joe - I'm at work so I can't check, but did both Bark and Ely also recount the story of the "two soldiers?" If so, do you believe then that they both picked the story up from Storm? Does that timeframe work out with Bark dying in 1938?"

That's a very good point, and I meant to get back to it a lot sooner. I don't really know if it was possible for Bark to get the Two Soldier's story from Storm. It doesn't seem likely, but who knows where that story came from. The story is in the Bark Notes.

Storm did not come into Tortilla Flats until 1940, but I believe he was in the mountains much earlier than that, since his first book was published in 1939. Maybe someone else can shed more light on the subject. :dontknow:

Take care,

Joe
 

If this helps, Storm was in the Mts as early as June 1937,with Jack Vall.
He got the story of the 2 soldiers from Jack Frazer, a person who Storm says talked to the soldiers,and saw their gold..Storm says he found 1 of the spent bullets the solders used to shoot a a deer,and shows a photo of it in my volume of Thunder God"s Gold. Finis
 

ghostdog said:
If this helps, Storm was in the Mts as early as June 1937,with Jack Vall.
He got the story of the 2 soldiers from Jack Frazer, a person who Storm says talked to the soldiers,and saw their gold..Storm says he found 1 of the spent bullets the solders used to shoot a a deer,and shows a photo of it in my volume of Thunder God"s Gold. Finis

I do recall reading that ghostdog - I also remember thinking "yah, right, he walks out to a spot where he guesses the soldiers shot at the deer and just HAPPENS to recover the exact bullet casing." That seemed WAYYYYYYYYY too convenient to me - especially coming from someone who has a reputation for telling a good story - whether true or not :P
 

Gully: Sniff, am I in the 99 % or the 1% bracket ??? With all of the beady eyes triple checking my posts, such as you, etc., etc. I try to stay honest, honest Injun. After all the truth is far easier to remember.


As for the LDM, the one remark that sticks in my mind is "From the first water to the needle a road can easily be made, eliminating the need for mules to work the mine" !

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

I thank you all for your input! Seems like I will have to do a lot more research about the two soldiers ... if they existed at all!
What I did think was that it might be another approach as the Waltz->Julia/Petrasch/Holmes seems to have played itself out, there doesn't seem to be any more gained from that approach.
That being said - my first gut feeling was that Waltz may have come across remnants from the massacre - if that really happened *lol* so much uncertainty about it all!
However, I do appreciate the way you have all ditched in for a (almost) complete newbie - thank you!

And 'cactusjumper' - you have always been rather special to me - I bow to your extensive knowledge though I don't always agree with you! *smile*. I hope that I one day will be able to actually meet with you ...
 

Arizona is one of the West's great treasure troves of Old West history, of gunmen, prospectors and dreamers, and there's no better place to experience that heritage than along the Apache Trail where little has changed since those days.

Here you'll find legends, markers and stories, including the last stage holdup in the West, the happenings of Billy the Kid, and the graves of bandits who wouldn't go down without a fight.


Sometimes a walk down Main Street in Goldfield Ghost Town can give visitors a real feel of the Old West.

A great place to see some of that history is the Lost Dutchman Superstition Museum, built right on the Apache Trail. The museum welcomes travelers with exhibits and knowledge of all matters concerning the Superstition Mountains. Go in and learn about Hacksaw Tom - the legendary highwayman who masked himself in a gunny sack and sat on a rock waiting for the freighters to reach the bottom of Fish Creek Canyon.

Roughly 14 miles from Arizona's Apache Junction, you might be amazed to discover a chain of blue lakes reflecting the surrounding cliffs and the Dolly Steamboat placidly chugging along from its Canyon Lake Marina. About 130 feet deep at points, these pearls of water in the desert were the result of the Roosevelt Dam and the taming of the Salt River that allowed cities like Phoenix and Mesa to flourish.

A few miles past Canyon Lake is Tortilla Flat - the old stage stop and Arizona's smallest town with a permanent population of six and as rustic as its 19th century origins. It's the final watering hole and restaurant before the pavement ends, and things start getting really interesting!


Beautiful and little-known Canyon Lake lies alongside the historic Apache Trail.

The Apache Trail continues on towards the Roosevelt Dam - rewarding the adventurous with hairpin curves on a narrow road clinging precariously along vertical cliffs and awfully few guard rails. Yet there is no thrill like experiencing the decent into Fish Creek Canyon - a 900-foot drop in less then a mile - and its abrupt change from high desert to a lush ecosystem of willows and trees.

Apache Lake is your indication you have almost reached the dam itself - a towering wall of concrete 283 feet high, 723 feet wide and, at the time of its completion, the largest masonry dam in the world.

Looking over the expanse of water being held back is more like standing at the edge of an ocean then in the middle of the Sonoran Desert. Try to imagine the Herculean efforts required hauling the materials - much less to cut the road and build the dam itself. It's a testament to why we admire the "can do" frontier character.

From downtown Apache Junction, the Apache Trail runs north. Yet traveling east takes you up the Old West Highway (U.S. 60) and what might just as well be termed "The Outlaw Trail."

Gold Canyon's History

Seven miles along the Old West Highway you'll run into the modern, affluent village of Gold Canyon with its art galleries, golf courses and spas. Don't be fooled, though. It was once Barkley Cattle Company land and in 1885 the site of the Quarter Circle U Ranch.

Even today die-hard cowboys keep a few head in the state land bordering the highway and more then once motorists have had the wits scared out of them by a refugee longhorn making his way across busy Highway 60.

Gold Canyon was also the site where bad man Frank Blake met his much-deserved end.


There are hiking trails of all distances and difficulty ranges at the Lost Dutchman State Park. ASP photo

Frank was a wandering man, a casual drinking buddy of Wild Bill Hickok and a notorious horse thief and woman stealer. He was one of the originators of the Horse Thief Trail running from Arizona through New Mexico to Texas.

Sought for kidnapping and murder, a Pinal Posse chased him into the Superstitions and, unable to catch him, simply camped out in the foothills waiting for him to come down. Sure enough, Frank obliged and became fatally ventilated with .45 caliber bullets for his trouble.

If you travel another 20 miles up the Old West Highway, you will start the climb up the Tonto National Forest until you crest Gonzales Pass.

Down below you will discover the little town of Superior, founded in 1872 and its downtown area looking much the same. It was an enclave of mostly Hispanic copper miners and remains alive with their heritage; a place of good Mexican Restaurants serving authentic food, local bars and cantinas and small shops.

It's somewhat ramshackle charm lies in its period architecture and its picturesque setting between the walls of the Apache Leap and the majestic saddle-backed heights of Picket Post Mountain.

Picket Post Mountain and the Leap have their own intertwined history and legends.

Boyce Thompson Arboretum

What is now the Boyce Thompson Arboretum, three miles west of Superior was once the site of the silver city of Pinal - the prospecting and gambling grounds for Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, Kate Elder and Mattie Baylock. Mattie is actually buried close by. Camp Picket Post was located there as well with a heliograph manned atop it to signal the activities of Apache and Yavapai raiding parties.


Easter Lily cacti and other species of South American echinopsis at the Boyce Thompson Arboretum have impressive white blossoms which are popular with bees. True to their name, these splashy plants begin blooming around Easter! ASP photo

In 1870 a raiding party of Apache stole several cattle and horses from settlements in Florence - about 30 miles to the south. The enraged settlers followed them up what was then called Big Picacho - a nearly unscalable vertical cliff wall - and caught the raiders unaware. The legend goes that rather then surrender, the Apache hurled themselves off the cliffs.

The reality is that the Florence settlers were not inclined to accept surrender and forced them over the edge - with the soldiers at Picket Post standing by. The warrior's widows collected their bodies at the bottom of the cliff and their tears turned into the black gemstones known as Apache Tears, as the legend goes. The gems notwithstanding, ever after they have called those cliffs The Apache Leap.

The Old West Highway continues on east up into Gila County, through Top of the World and into Miami - another 19th century mining town and famous for its vintage streets and antique shops. Another few miles bring you to Globe and its historic Downtown District.

Globe and the areas around it contain a veritable Who's Who of legendary Arizona characters.

Al Seiber, Clay Beauford, Tom Horn and most of the other principles of the Geronimo Wars were frequent residents as was Geronimo himself - incarcerated with other famous Apache warriors such as Nachie and Victorio on the San Carlos Reservation. There is good evidence that the teenaged William Bonny - back when he was still calling himself Antrim and not Billy the Kid - worked cattle there for a spell.

It was also from Globe that the fearsome Apache Kid went from trusted Army scout to renegade and unleashed a three-year reign of terror throughout Central Arizona in the 1890s. Doc Holiday's paramour "Big Nose" Kate Elder retreated there from Tombstone and another of Tombstone's famous residents, Finn Clanton, lies buried in its cemetery.

Nor would you go wrong heading suth - taking Highway 60 to the Florence Junction and the 16 miles to the Pinal County Seat of Florence! Because it had good irrigation and water, it was among the first settlements in Central Arizona in 1866 and quickly became its financial and transport center. It still has over 130 buildings listed on the Historical Registry.

Pearl Hart, one of the West's famous bad women, robbed the Florence stage with partner Joe Boot in 1899 - the very last stage robbery in the United States, and was tried and sentenced to Yuma Prison from the Florence Courthouse. Another famous resident of Florence were John Clum - the captor of Geronimo, friend of Wyatt Earp and editor of the Tombstone Epitaph.

Further south you will discover Coolidge, home of the Casa Grande Hohokam Ruins and Picacho Peak, site of the only Civil War battle in Arizona. In any Pinal direction you will strike rich veins of Old Arizona atmosphere - unvarnished, unspoiled and un-commercialized.

Territorial Arizona - it's still here waiting for you to come explore the real Old West.
 

SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN said:
If you travel another 20 miles up the Old West Highway, you will start the climb up the Tonto National Forest until you crest Gonzales Pass.

Down below you will discover the little town of Superior, founded in 1872 and its downtown area looking much the same. It was an enclave of mostly Hispanic copper miners and remains alive with their heritage; a place of good Mexican Restaurants serving authentic food, local bars and cantinas and small shops.

It's somewhat ramshackle charm lies in its period architecture and its picturesque setting between the walls of the Apache Leap and the majestic saddle-backed heights of Picket Post Mountain.

Picket Post Mountain and the Leap have their own intertwined history and legends.

Boyce Thompson Arboretum

What is now the Boyce Thompson Arboretum, three miles west of Superior was once the site of the silver city of Pinal - the prospecting and gambling grounds for Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, Kate Elder and Mattie Baylock. Mattie is actually buried close by. Camp Picket Post was located there as well with a heliograph manned atop it to signal the activities of Apache and Yavapai raiding parties.


Easter Lily cacti and other species of South American echinopsis at the Boyce Thompson Arboretum have impressive white blossoms which are popular with bees. True to their name, these splashy plants begin blooming around Easter! ASP photo

In 1870 a raiding party of Apache stole several cattle and horses from settlements in Florence - about 30 miles to the south. The enraged settlers followed them up what was then called Big Picacho - a nearly unscalable vertical cliff wall - and caught the raiders unaware. The legend goes that rather then surrender, the Apache hurled themselves off the cliffs.

The reality is that the Florence settlers were not inclined to accept surrender and forced them over the edge - with the soldiers at Picket Post standing by. The warrior's widows collected their bodies at the bottom of the cliff and their tears turned into the black gemstones known as Apache Tears, as the legend goes. The gems notwithstanding, ever after they have called those cliffs The Apache Leap.

The Old West Highway continues on east up into Gila County, through Top of the World and into Miami - another 19th century mining town and famous for its vintage streets and antique shops. Another few miles bring you to Globe and its historic Downtown District.

Globe and the areas around it contain a veritable Who's Who of legendary Arizona characters.

Al Seiber, Clay Beauford, Tom Horn and most of the other principles of the Geronimo Wars were frequent residents as was Geronimo himself - incarcerated with other famous Apache warriors such as Nachie and Victorio on the San Carlos Reservation. There is good evidence that the teenaged William Bonny - back when he was still calling himself Antrim and not Billy the Kid - worked cattle there for a spell.

It was also from Globe that the fearsome Apache Kid went from trusted Army scout to renegade and unleashed a three-year reign of terror throughout Central Arizona in the 1890s. Doc Holiday's paramour "Big Nose" Kate Elder retreated there from Tombstone and another of Tombstone's famous residents, Finn Clanton, lies buried in its cemetery.

Nor would you go wrong heading suth - taking Highway 60 to the Florence Junction and the 16 miles to the Pinal County Seat of Florence! Because it had good irrigation and water, it was among the first settlements in Central Arizona in 1866 and quickly became its financial and transport center. It still has over 130 buildings listed on the Historical Registry.

Pearl Hart, one of the West's famous bad women, robbed the Florence stage with partner Joe Boot in 1899 - the very last stage robbery in the United States, and was tried and sentenced to Yuma Prison from the Florence Courthouse. Another famous resident of Florence were John Clum - the captor of Geronimo, friend of Wyatt Earp and editor of the Tombstone Epitaph.

Further south you will discover Coolidge, home of the Casa Grande Hohokam Ruins and Picacho Peak, site of the only Civil War battle in Arizona. In any Pinal direction you will strike rich veins of Old Arizona atmosphere - unvarnished, unspoiled and un-commercialized.

Territorial Arizona - it's still here waiting for you to come explore the real Old West.

Wow Globe and good ole Gila county thats where I am orginally from.. and know alot of history of the area and have been in the Supers tons of times and miss the area to a pont... But Alaska is alot better so much more treasure to dig out of the ground :P Some Day maybe I can join you all in the hunt for the LDM
 

""""miss the area to a pont..."""" :P Tuesday, May 4, 1886: Weather: Fine. Upwood and I rode to Downing's Sawmill today in Pine Canyon. Had crack at antelope perhaps three hundred yards off, but didn't get it though. Made a couple of good running shots. A long ride up canyon. [William M.] D.[owning] high up. Had quite a chat. I was quite successful in main mission. Met Elwood there. I strike people all over country in most inaccessible places who know me, even though I may not know them. Quite remarkable. Good mill, capable of 15,000 (board) feet. Also, very fine lumber indeed. Some trees 17 feet around and 150 feet high; 3,000 (board) feet in some. Pretty good for Arizona. Near Fife's, a Mexican, who killed Mrs. Fife last October, was hung to limb of tree. Mormons. Opposite tree, a shallow grave was dug. Coyotes got away with the body. Held U.'s [Upwood's] horse while he tried to dig up skull which we wanted. Ascertained another fellow had it. One bone only on surface. Clean. Returned via Apache trail commanding grand view of country. Gone all day till 8:00 P.M. Horse cast shoe. """"Two graves of miners"""" :tongue3: [Joseph L. Cadotte and George Todenworth] killed by Apaches to left of trail.
 

I guess this guy misses the area too :wink: I can still remember as a kid camping out and about near the Superstition Mountains. One of my friend’s father used to talk about how the Apache used to hang above in the cliffs and wait for people to pass through before ambushing them. Then they’d hide the spoils in a cave that could only be located by them. The dead of the Apache still roam the hills, and slaughter all those who would claim their gold. This is the kind of stuff he’d tell a scared 12 year old before lights out. I remember one night screaming in fright when a tree branch started rubbing against the tent after hearing these stories, and barreling out of the tent into my mom and dad’s. Even if there was gold out there, you couldn’t get me to go back 20 years later..lol! Brings back a lot from my childhood. From: Anonymous
 

Sunday, May 16, 1886: Weather: Warm and fine. Some exciting Indian news. Fighting reported, and seven soldiers reported killed and other badly licked. Served them right the way they """"acted, coming through a box canyon."""" :icon_scratch:
 

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Paul,

"Joe - I'm at work so I can't check, but did both Bark and Ely also recount the story of the "two soldiers?" If so, do you believe then that they both picked the story up from Storm? Does that timeframe work out with Bark dying in 1938?"

All this talk about Storm and, by extension, got me to reread "West of Dawn". Found the answer to your question on page 27. Hugh d'Autremont asks Storm: "How did you get interested in all this?"

Storm replies: "I was around when the Adolph Ruth murder occurred a few years ago--1931, to be exact. There were lots of killings in the mountains before then. Ruth's son got a map from a grandson of the Peraltas in Mexico in 1912. It wasn't until 1931 that Ruth decided to check it out and finally left Barkley's ranch with some cowhands and it seems everyone knew he had a map. He never came back. A search party had no success . Months later, heavy rain washed out his shallow grave and exposed his skull filled with bullet holes. They never did learn who killed him."

That exchange tells you that Storm was in the area, at least, as early as 1931, possibly earlier. I believe Bark sold the ranch in 1911, but it's hard to believe that Storm didn't look him up and swap some stories, looking for material for his book.

Take care,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
Paul,

"Joe - I'm at work so I can't check, but did both Bark and Ely also recount the story of the "two soldiers?" If so, do you believe then that they both picked the story up from Storm? Does that timeframe work out with Bark dying in 1938?"

All this talk about Storm and, by extension, got me to reread "West of Dawn". Found the answer to your question on page 27. Hugh d'Autremont asks Storm: "How did you get interested in all this?"

Storm replies: "I was around when the Adolph Ruth murder occurred a few years ago--1931, to be exact. There were lots of killings in the mountains before then. Ruth's son got a map from a grandson of the Peraltas in Mexico in 1912. It wasn't until 1931 that Ruth decided to check it out and finally left Barkley's ranch with some cowhands and it seems everyone knew he had a map. He never came back. A search party had no success . Months later, heavy rain washed out his shallow grave and exposed his skull filled with bullet holes. They never did learn who killed him."

That exchange tells you that Storm was in the area, at least, as early as 1931, possibly earlier. I believe Bark sold the ranch in 1911, but it's hard to believe that Storm didn't look him up and swap some stories, looking for material for his book.

Take care,

Joe

Hey Joe,

Thanks for the info. - sadly Storm seems to have a reputation for at the very least exaggeration which makes it hard to really believe anything he says. Even his above statement above about Ruth's skull filled with bullet holes is a bit "above and beyond."

I'd pretty much have to hear from another source who ran across him to feel confident that he was really there in that timeframe.

Thanks again for looking that up - I'll have to keep my eyes open on Alibris for that book and add it to my collection one of these days.

Paul
 

Paul,

Here's something that can be found in the LDM Archives:

"Starting sometime around 1910-1914 Jim Bark started writing The Bark Notes adding to them up until the mid-1930s. They were written as a manuscript for publication, not as a private diary. Since they were written for publication (which never happened) Bark changed some things in them and left many others out."

Don't know who the author of that post was, but he does seem knowledgeable. Believe Greg Davis could confirm the truthfulnes of his statement.

Storm first wrote about the Two Soldiers almost thirty years prior to Bark starting to write his notes. That provided plenty of time for the story to become part of the legend. Most of Sims Ely's book is taken directly from the Bark Notes.

Take care,

Joe
_____________________________________________

WOW!! JUST REREAD WHAT I WROTE HERE. SURPRISED NO ONE CALLED ME ON MY......MATH? I WILL LEAVE THE ENTIRE POST TO REMIND MYSELF THAT MY THOUGHT PROCESS AIN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE. :o ::)

Joe
 

Interesting letter today in my treasurenet mail box this is only part of it. From (Anonymous:) Regarding your find: """"There are actually 18 mines in that area."""" """"See if you can find one that hasn't already been found."""" I have found them. Going for the Gold legally, of course. <<<< TREASURE NET CHALLENGE?>>>> Can Anyone Here Guess Who This Is?
 

Of course, he is trying to transpose Tayopa to the Superstitions he he he Unfortunately Tayopa has already been found and is in Chihuahua, Mexico. How is our mutual acquaintance?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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