The Wagoner Lost Ledge

[Loke]

OK - I _know_ that this is strictly _not_ the LDM, but it _is_ in the Superstitions Mountains and it well may be connected to the LDM.

I am starting this to see if somebody may have some info on the subject - other than the links I am posting - so here we go:

http://www.superstitionmountain.info/chronicles/2010/01_04_10.html
http://geologypark.org/treasure/arizona/tales/az018a.jsp

(Thanks to Roy/Oro for these two)

http://www.nuggetshooter.com/treasurestories/MinersNeedle.html

Now - the first link (TomK) talks about gold in white quartz while the two last ones talk about gold in _rose quartz_

You guys be the judge - is there anything in this or is it just another blind alley (branch) in the search of the LDM??

Per

 

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[Blindbowman]

OK - I _know_ that this is strictly _not_ the LDM, but it _is_ in the Superstitions Mountains and it well may be connected to the LDM.

I am starting this to see if somebody may have some info on the subject - other than the links I am posting - so here we go:

http://www.superstitionmountain.info/chronicles/2010/01_04_10.html
http://geologypark.org/treasure/arizona/tales/az018a.jsp

(Thanks to Roy/Oro for these two)

http://www.nuggetshooter.com/treasurestories/MinersNeedle.html

Now - the first link (TomK) talks about gold in white quartz while the two last ones talk about gold in _rose quartz_

You guys be the judge - is there anything in this or is it just another blind alley (branch) in the search of the LDM??

Per

you really have to know something about the topic to under stand whats going on ,, your talking about devolopment of quartz from volcanic activy the color of quartz can change with the distence from the volcanic active to the sorce of the heat created ... as well as the metals and minrals that come in contact with the deposit as its heated and cooled

so you can have white quartz on one part of the deposit and rose on the other .. the color dose not always defind the type of quartz .. scale of the posit often lemites the color to a given shade
but not always is that the case .. i did look at this legend...

do i know the location of this deposit .. to about a 200 yard area ..other then that i never defind where it is yet ...


if you are just interested in this legend thats one thing .. if you want to try to look for it with ft on the ground ,,, think before you act .. that is a hard area to get to and you need a lot of water with you to get there and back ..


i have hike past this area before more then once in fact ...

a lot of steep gorges and easy flash flood areas ...

dont go alone this is a area off the main trails .. there is a tril trew the area but it is not a main trail and dose not see to many hikes in a week .. so becareful if you make a misteak in that area its not going to be very funny ...

un like where cup went where he could yell to people on the trail below .. those canyons are in the side canyons and no one would here you if you yeld all day long ...i am not jokeing this is not the area to test a thoery

the mts can always be dangerous yet i list my hikes from 1 to 10 and that area is a 6 ro 6.5 .. anything beyond 3 is a 2 people or more area ..there is two ways out of that area if you got your self in troble .. out coffie flats or out 235 .. both dirrections you would have to climb steep trail to get out ..coffie being the longer of the two ...
if it was late and you were comeing out in the dark .. coffie would be your best bet .. after you clear the mtts .. the flats maybe a long way to go .. but mostly flat area .. till just before you get out .. but the trail is clear , i came out that way in the dark once .. i would not do it again if i had a choice..its not a option you want to take lightly ....


when i try to find a site like this i time my self .. hours and then i am out there no matter if i found anything or not .. take a lot of photos .. computers now days can edit more then you believe ...

Nikon makes a photo editor program called NX2 check out the share ware ....

it is a interesting legend and IMHO . it would be interesting to check the area if done safely

i will say one thing did not set right about this legend ... why did he take that waythrew the mts .. not the first choice or the safist .. just something to think about ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Tag post

Side note here but anyone researching Wagoner, it is found spelled various ways - Waggoner, Wagonner, Wagner etc.
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

let me add something else to this post .. if your going to try to locate the site .. i would go in the coffie flats trail and head the minners needle go up behind minners and to the wisky springs and the down behind minners keep your headings based on the crystal spring as your next way point .. why because if you to crystal springs and try to go in the opsite dirrection the mts are more confussion then it is looping around minners and then downward.. if you come from the flats and the wisky springs way point .. go to the lower canyons heading southwest i would guess you would be faceing about 195-200 degrees or there about when you get to the bottom .. go about a 1/4 mile you will see 2 canyons that run down from the minners needle regde line .. i beleive this site is in one of those two canyons .. most likely not very far into those canyons .. and if you stop and look and realize this legend says he was headed to minners ...then you maybe able to judge wich canyon is most likely ..

if it was me i would mark the spot i left the trail and i would not go alone .. this is off tral area and dose not get as much hikers as some of the rest of the trails ..

i can tell you i did not look for this site .. it dose not mean i did not check out this area as i hike past .. i know a few things about the deposit i am not willing to share .. but i do believe this is a true legend ..and i do believe this deposit is there in that area ..as your walking toward crystall from wiskey springs you will be looking to you left in the first two csmall canyons the run up to the top of that redge ..
take lots of water . and remember trail 235 has a step climb out near the starting trail head so keep some gas in your tank .. i mean food ...!
engery bars or something like that .. the trail is well marked if you check this site out take a wilderness guide with you .. its worth the carry ..

two things to remember .. when you egt to crystall keep headed left back toward trail 235 .. do not turn right at crystal spring you will go up the north side of bluff spring and you most likely dont have enough water to make both the wiskey springs loop and that loop .. un less your carring a 110 lbs 3-4 gallons of water..

i2. go to googler earth and look at where you want to go and then look at the trail you want to take going and comeing back so you get a idea of what the tral will look like from the other dirrection

that may be the best part of google earth i have seen yet .. lay out your trail and messure it .. know where your going and how far it will be .. make sure someone knows where your going .. thats not the area to get lost in ..

PS .,. if you have looked in the area and got back to crystal spring and know where you are at . and do have a few gallons of water left .. your near the end of the canyon that runs the north side of bluff spring .. at the other end of that canyon is the secound masscre site are a.even if you do not make the full loop around bluff spring . and back track the way you came back to crystal after checking out the masscre site .. just the idea of walking up on a pack laod of ore laying on ythe ground is a feeling any treasure hunter would like to feel at lest once in their life time ..its worth the hike if done safly ...do not try that if you do not have the guide with you unless you really do know these mts and trails ..if you get to the masscre site and you still have some water left .. loop the end of the bluff spring mt and take a look for weavers needel.. that will take away any dout of where you are and then you will enjoy where your at just a little more then the way in ... walking past it makes you think of all those who did and those that did not come back ... you maybe able to take what you have seen with you without a NFSpermit ...lol...but i would check the rules just in case .lol

 

[Loke]

BB - Hmmmm - might be worth looking into ...
And yes - I take your warnings to heart, it would be stooopid not to ...

If nothing else, it would give us something else to look for - and also being somewhat off the beaten track (as it were).
Just blindly following where 1000's of others have been (and not found anything) would be an exercise in futility (imho).

I take it, then, that you believe in this ledge - and its not the same as the LDM?

Per

 

[Blindbowman]

do i believe the ledgen i said its posable .. .. do i believe the deposit is the LDM ,NO its not ...

there is a relationship to the LDM but this deposit is not the LDM..

i sorry for the way my reply is worded .. i was injured today and i am in a lot of pain so .. i will cut this short sorry ..i will be OK in a few weeks ...

 

[Oroblanco]

do i believe the ledgen i said its posable .. .. do i believe the deposit is the LDM ,NO its not ...

there is a relationship to the LDM but this deposit is not the LDM..

i sorry for the way my reply is worded .. i was injured today and i am in a lot of pain so .. i will cut this short sorry ..i will be OK in a few weeks ...

Sorry to hear of your injury amigo, hope you will be on the mend soon.
Roy

 

[Blindbowman]

do i believe the ledgen i said its posable .. .. do i believe the deposit is the LDM ,NO its not ...

there is a relationship to the LDM but this deposit is not the LDM..

i sorry for the way my reply is worded .. i was injured today and i am in a lot of pain so .. i will cut this short sorry ..i will be OK in a few weeks ...

Sorry to hear of your injury amigo, hope you will be on the mend soon.
Roy

i am OK Oro .. just a nice black a blue spot the size of a hard ball just above the knee and a sore arm broke my glasses .. i got them fix till i get a new pair . that will take a few weeks .. a lot of coffie and .. reat i will be fine .. dont you just love the time after your hert and everything reminds you of your age ...lol

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

You posted -->dont you just love the time after your hert and everything reminds you of your age.
***************
SHADDUP !!!

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

You posted -->dont you just love the time after your hert and everything reminds you of your age.
***************
SHADDUP !!!

Don Jose de La Mancha

i know you like the wipes and leather ....lol

 

[TucsonHiker]

I am somewhat of a newbie to all of the legends surrounding the Supes, but have been following the posts here and learning alot from some very knowledge people about the area (and reading some nonsense from many others). I do have family that live very close to the base of the flat iron, so I have been in and out of the area on numerous hikes and know the area to some degree, just not the story behind the areas I have hiked. For example, I have hiked the massacre grounds a few times, but never really knew the significance of the area just that it was an easy day hike with decent views. So thanks to the knowledgable participants whom have put the very interesting stories with the grounds I have walked and made future hikes that much more intersting for me from a historical point of view.

Now on to the subject at hand, I read the story written by Tom K. about this subject from the link provided and found the paragraph below interesting:

Wagoner said the gold ore was located four hours walking time north of the “Narrows” on the stage route. The ledge was located near two black hills. A sharp needle rock could be seen on the horizon to the north. Water could be found one mile to the east year around no matter how dry the season was. Indian markings can be found on the rocks just to the west of the site over some very rough and steep terrain. The old alternate route for the military trail between Fort McDowell and Camp Pinal lie about one mile to the north. Fred Mullins never found Wagoner’s golden ledge and it remains lost to this day.

Not knowing the names of all of the areas, I found it interesting that it states the alternate route for the military trail lies about one mile to the north. One of the clues I have heard mentioned here pertaining to the LDM is that the military trail could be seen from his mine, but the mine could not be seen from the military trail. For those of you that are familiar with the area (not from google earth), is this military trail the same in both legends?

Chris

 

[Oroblanco]

Chris - thank you for joining in the discussion! I see that you have been a member since January (a belated Welcome to T-net by the way ) but only a couple of posts, so I am glad you decided to join us. We always have a more interesting discussion when more brains are participating.

That is an interesting passage you pointed out; one source says that Wagoner would always get off the stage at the Whitlow ranch to hike to his ledge but I am not sure where the Narrows are. I don't have an opinion about which military trail is the right one that Waltz was referring to in his cryptic clue - the problem is that the military used a number of different trails over the years and we can only rule out those that were not used until after 1891.
Oroblanco

 

[markmar]

Hey Loke

Are you still interested in finding the Wagoner's outcrop or just in the story?
I found the description of the Wagoner's site in TucsonHiker's post almost accurate, with the exception of the two black hills, which are not hills at all, but small rocky ground outcroppings.
Because I know you will don't go where I would tell you to go, and maybe nobody else, I will post an aerial image of the mine's site, giving a big clue which is a trail that lies close to the Wagoner's mine.
Find that piece of trail and you will find the mine which is in the yellow circle from the image/map.
The decision to grab the opportunity or to leave it to go, is in your hands.

View attachment 1741678

 

[gollum]

Quit NECROPOSTING! Just start a new thread.

Mike

 

[markmar]

Quit NECROPOSTING! Just start a new thread.

Mike

I didn't understand what have you wrote. Only the last sentence. But the word " quit " hit a nerve somewhere in my right brain hemisphere. If you want to give orders , just buy a dog.

 

[azdave35]

I didn't understand what have you wrote. Only the last sentence. But the word " quit " hit a nerve somewhere in my right brain hemisphere. If you want to give orders , just buy a dog.

about 15 years ago i talked to a guy that found some big nuggets with a metal detector in the area of waggoners lost gold...i ran across the pic today..thought some of you guys might want to see it

 

[wrmickel1]

about 15 years ago i talked to a guy that found some big nuggets with a metal detector in the area of waggoners lost gold...i ran across the pic today..thought some of you guys might want to see it
View attachment 1741963

Hey, now that looks Familiar just not cleaned up to look brilliant. I could clean that dirty gold for him. Just some rubber gloves and a few dips is all it takes.

Nice gold pic, Babymick1 looks exactly like mine.

 

[azdave35]

Hey, now that looks Familiar just not cleaned up to look brilliant. I could clean that dirty gold for him. Just some rubber gloves and a few dips is all it takes.

Nice gold pic, Babymick1 looks exactly like mine.

yes...its dirty and still crystalline...which means it didn't travel far from the source

 

[markmar]

about 15 years ago i talked to a guy that found some big nuggets with a metal detector in the area of waggoners lost gold...i ran across the pic today..thought some of you guys might want to see it
View attachment 1741963

Could be from the Wagoner outcrop since there don't exist another source IMO.

 

[azdave35]

Could be from the Wagoner outcrop since there don't exist another source IMO.

its in the right area could be..either way its good stuff