The Waltz Doodle

[skyhawk1251]

I've been looking at photos of Weavers Needle to compare them with the Waltz Doodle. The view of the needle from Parker Pass is close to looking like the doodle, but isn't an exact match. Parker Pass seems to be too far west. The view of the needle from Black Top Mesa is also close to looking like the doodle, but again isn't an exact match. The view from Black Top Mesa seems to be a little too far east. I'd say the doodle seems to be a view of the needle seen just south of Black Top Mesa and a little to the west of the mesa. In any case, using the doodle alone as a clue, it rules out any possibility that it could be a view of the needle as seen from far east in the Superstitions. The doodle seems to show a view of the needle as seen in the western Superstitions and not far from the needle. If anyone has a photo of the needle that matches the doodle, please share it here.

Above, the needle seen from Parker Pass.

Above, the needle seen from the top of Black Top Mesa.

 

[Idahodutch]

Skyhawk,
In old West Boulder, there is a springs that today is called “willow springs”.

On the attached GE image thumbnail below, the Drop Pin is about where willow springs is located.
Almost directly east is Weaver’s Needle.

There is a break in the high ridgeline just east of the springs.

I remember reading forums from a long time ago, that someone had supposedly matched up the doodle to somewhere in that break in the ridgeline between Weaver’s Needle, and Willow Springs.

I have not been there, so I can’t say.
I don’t remember there being a photo though 😐

Maybe someone remembers more details 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[PotBelly Jim]

It was Joe Ribaudo that had climbed that ridge over Willow Springs with his brother and saw that view. He was convinced that Adolph Ruth was looking for that view and that's why he was camped at Willow Springs. Interestingly, the "Waltz Doodle" was unknown at the time of Ruth and later Joe's trips to Willow Springs. Joe recognized the view once the doodle was published in Helen's book.

PS - Joe used to post a pic of that view that he thought matched up with the doodle but I can't remember if it was on here or another forum. Probably in both

 

[Mkdetector]

I've been looking at photos of Weavers Needle to compare them with the Waltz Doodle. The view of the needle from Parker Pass is close to looking like the doodle, but isn't an exact match. Parker Pass seems to be too far west. The view of the needle from Black Top Mesa is also close to looking like the doodle, but again isn't an exact match. The view from Black Top Mesa seems to be a little too far east. I'd say the doodle seems to be a view of the needle seen just south of Black Top Mesa and a little to the west of the mesa. In any case, using the doodle alone as a clue, it rules out any possibility that it could be a view of the needle as seen from far east in the Superstitions. The doodle seems to show a view of the needle as seen in the western Superstitions and not far from the needle. If anyone has a photo of the needle that matches the doodle, please share it here.

View attachment 2220852

View attachment 2220853

Above, the needle seen from Parker Pass.

View attachment 2220854

Above, the needle seen from the top of Black Top Mesa.

Nice work narrowing the view with Parker Pass and Black Top Mesa. Reading the skyline of the doodle as a simplified silhouette, a few geometric tells stand out:

Single-spire profile – The doodle shows a rounded, single mass with a small right-hand spur. From far east (e.g., Fremont Saddle) the Needle famously splits into two horns. That split isn’t in the doodle, so an “eastern Superstitions” view is unlikely.

Left foreground ramp + central saddle – The sketch has a broad left ramp that rises above a low V-shaped saddle before the Needle. Your photo reproduces that 3-part composition (left ramp → central saddle → Needle), which argues for a western to southwest perspective, relatively close to the Needle.

Right-hand pyramid/knoll – In both the sketch and your photo a distinct triangular knoll sits to the right of the Needle. From Parker Pass this feature sits too far right; from Black Top Mesa it crowds the Needle too much. Best fit is a position just south of Black Top Mesa and slightly west of it.

Search corridor (most likely): the low benches and rises between Bluff Spring Wash and the west/southwest toe of Black Top Mesa, roughly 0.5–2 miles from the Needle (western Superstitions). Spots along the Bluff Spring Trail between the Mesa saddle and the Terrapin junction, and the open ground a bit west of there, give a skyline that matches the doodle’s proportions better than Parker Pass or the top of Black Top Mesa.

How to verify (quick method):

Stand where the left ramp consumes ~30–35% of your horizontal field, with the Needle placed right-of-center and a clean V-saddle between them.

Check the Needle’s right-hand spur angle; from the west/southwest it kinks slightly right, as in the doodle.

Take a telephoto shot (70–100 mm FF equivalent) so perspective compression matches a simple line sketch.

 

[Geoffnotjeff]

Joe felt this was the image (captured from a helo iirc) but one would be slighltly lower to match it.

He also posted this image stating that Gene reynolds had told him this was the view Ruth was looking for.

 

[skyhawk1251]

Here is a drone video that circumnavigates Weavers Needle. You'll see how the shape of the needle changes to match the doodle. The ramp must disappear, the lower lobe must narrow, and the thin pinnacle must merge with the higher lobe. All of that occurs at a very precise compass heading. I've never been all around the needle, so I can't say what that compass heading is, but with that information a lot of territory is eliminated. I see the doodle as being a composite sketch. One part shows the shape of the needle as seen from the distance. The other part shows the cave opening below Waltz' viewing point. The needle doesn't seem to be too far away in the sketch, but its base is obscured by intervening terrain.

 

[skyhawk1251]

Best fit is a position just south of Black Top Mesa and slightly west of it. -- Mkdetector

I agree.

 

[SPARTANOC]

I agree.

Skyhawk1251

I guess now, begs the question - on said Doodle, what in the Doodle is considered the Spot where the Mine is located? In my opinion, the Doodle shows the terrain and is purposely leaving out THE SPOT or (X marks the spot). In other words - the map is designed to get you into a particular area - and then up to the Searcher, which way to the Mine or cached area of Waltz' gold.

If I settle at where MKdetector states (south of Black Top Mesa and slightly west of it), the end result does not completely match the Doodle. It's close, but not a 100% fit. If the correct area comes in line - I would think that area would "pop out" to the viewer being compared to the Doodle.

How definitive are we to think that the Doodle is legit? When was the first time the Doodle was seen, as I've heard Ruth probably didn't have it at the time he was out there?

Keep at it Skyhawk1251, as I believe you're onto a good working location.

-SpartanOC

 

[SPARTANOC]

Skyhawk1251

I would also state - that Weaver's Needle on the Doodle, isn't a good representation of the depth of field and how far it is relevant to the rest of what's on the Doodle. I'm thinking Weaver's Needle on the Doodle is farther than it's representing. It would make sense to draw it that way, as the Doodle is just a facsimile of the real dimensions and a reference guide to give the person an idea of the shape of things, but not the accurate depth of field of things. If that makes any sense of what I just stated.

-SpartanOC

 

[skyhawk1251]

How definitive are we to think that the Doodle is legit? -- SPARTANOC

This clue, as with all the others, fits into the "what-if" category. None of the clues can be regarded as definitive or absolutely legit, in my opinion. They just present a good exercise in deductive reasoning based on them as they stand. You are spot-on when you wrote that what is on the sketch is not true to scale, nor does it suggest where the mine is located, even if the searcher finds Waltz' cave. The essential information needed to pinpoint the location of the mine is lacking in the doodle, as it is in all the other clues. Even if Waltz had divulged very explicit information, complete with documentation, I think finding an 18-inch gold-rich vein in all that chaotic, volcanic terrain would almost be an effort in futility. The best we can do with the doodle is try to ascertain what compass heading, or narrow range of compass headings, points the way to the needle, looking south toward it, then eliminate some of the terrain along the way, such as flat areas that could not conceal a mine.

 

[Gare]

Skyhawk Great pictures and great report. I did a report on the LDM in 1958 LOL don't remember to much . Good luck and keep us posted

 

[393stroker]

This clue, as with all the others, fits into the "what-if" category. None of the clues can be regarded as definitive or absolutely legit, in my opinion. They just present a good exercise in deductive reasoning based on them as they stand. You are spot-on when you wrote that what is on the sketch is not true to scale, nor does it suggest where the mine is located, even if the searcher finds Waltz' cave. The essential information needed to pinpoint the location of the mine is lacking in the doodle, as it is in all the other clues. Even if Waltz had divulged very explicit information, complete with documentation, I think finding an 18-inch gold-rich vein in all that chaotic, volcanic terrain would almost be an effort in futility. The best we can do with the doodle is try to ascertain what compass heading, or narrow range of compass headings, points the way to the needle, looking south toward it, then eliminate some of the terrain along the way, such as flat areas that could not conceal

I've been looking at photos of Weavers Needle to compare them with the Waltz Doodle. The view of the needle from Parker Pass is close to looking like the doodle, but isn't an exact match. Parker Pass seems to be too far west. The view of the needle from Black Top Mesa is also close to looking like the doodle, but again isn't an exact match. The view from Black Top Mesa seems to be a little too far east. I'd say the doodle seems to be a view of the needle seen just south of Black Top Mesa and a little to the west of the mesa. In any case, using the doodle alone as a clue, it rules out any possibility that it could be a view of the needle as seen from far east in the Superstitions. The doodle seems to show a view of the needle as seen in the western Superstitions and not far from the needle. If anyone has a photo of the needle that matches the doodle, please share it here.

View attachment 2220852

View attachment 2220853

Above, the needle seen from Parker Pass.

View attachment 2220854

Above, the needle seen from the top of Black Top Mesa.

What would you think if I suggest that the doodle is a reverse image? After all it fits the view of Weavers Needle as seen from Coffee Flat Mnt. to the east. Waltz was seen climbing up Coffee Flat by Senior Robles, a cowboy grazing some cattle.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Skyhawk1251

I guess now, begs the question - on said Doodle, what in the Doodle is considered the Spot where the Mine is located?

welp ... ifin you believe the text at the bottom of the cartoon in the OP, to whit: "it shows the view from above the cave" The location is just under the butt of the guy who drew da doodle.

It would then logically follow that if you can place your butt at a location where the view matches the doodle, your butt is then just above the cave. Your crack marks the spot, as it were. Look down to see the riches.

Or did I misunderstand something? I'm new at this.

In my opinion, the Doodle shows the terrain and is purposely leaving out THE SPOT or (X marks the spot). In other words - the map is designed to get you into a particular area - and then up to the Searcher, which way to the Mine or cached area of Waltz' gold.

If I settle at where MKdetector states (south of Black Top Mesa and slightly west of it), the end result does not completely match the Doodle. It's close, but not a 100% fit. If the correct area comes in line - I would think that area would "pop out" to the viewer being compared to the Doodle.

How definitive are we to think that the Doodle is legit? When was the first time the Doodle was seen, as I've heard Ruth probably didn't have it at the time he was out there?

Keep at it Skyhawk1251, as I believe you're onto a good working location.

-SpartanOC

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I wonder how much detail an old guy would be able to reproduce/draw from memory? Especially since Waltz supposedly had not gone back to the mine for years. I think it's possible that much detail would be left out/drawn wrong. Even possible that the view was reversed, for whatever reason.

I have my doubts as to the doodle's authenticity. It was reportedly found on a shelf or "mantle" in Hermann's cabin after he died. Who found it? It should most likely be the Martin family. But this detail is left out of "Curse" and later the "Bible" where it was reproduced again. Why didn't Helen say anything about this doodle? One would think that such an important "clue" would get more than a footnote with nothing in the text. Maybe I missed it?

I like the part that it came from a notebook containing "German" stamps. That clinches it.

It's difficult for me to look over the old stories at this point. In every single story the errors are so glaring and numerous it's obvious they're just fake/made up and I don't have much patience for that these days.

I think the truth is probably within reach, but the trick is finding/recognizing that little nugget of info, when 99.99% of what's been written (and there's a lot of writing that's gone on) is total BS.

 

[Ponteach]

Excellent topic,
For the second time in years i'm showing this photo again, but no one believes, hopping some of you will realized what you are looking at ..., i'm showing the center part of the doodle, the chimney formation, i cannot show wider not to give the area away, what is remaining of the pinnacle on the doodle is 1/4 miles away, Weavers Needle was never the pinnacle on the doodle,

`` The location is just under the butt of the guy who drew da doodle.
It would then logically follow that if you can place your butt at a location where the view matches the doodle, your butt is then just above the cave. Your crack marks the spot, as it were. Look down to see the riches. ``
`` If the correct area comes in line - I would think that area would "pop out" to the viewer being compared to the Doodle.``

the doodle was not made from memory it is 100% good, it is not reversed, it was made on site from above obviously years before, some old questions are now answered

 

[SPARTANOC]

welp ... ifin you believe the text at the bottom of the cartoon in the OP, to whit: "it shows the view from above the cave" The location is just under the butt of the guy who drew da doodle.

It would then logically follow that if you can place your butt at a location where the view matches the doodle, your butt is then just above the cave. Your crack marks the spot, as it were. Look down to see the riches.

Or did I misunderstand something? I'm new at this.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr

Man is that a long Profile name . You are not misunderstanding. It's a good point and observation. What I think the Doodle is stating; is that in that Doodle is the general area of where Waltz had his mine and cache. Is it under the "crack" (yeah, I'm still laughing) as you stated, could very well be. I'm in the camp that, the Doodle is telling us - this is the location, figure out a compass direction and maneuver yourself into the area. I think the 'X marks the spot' has been purposely left out - as that would be too easy to decipher. It's probably telling us, come to this location within the Wilderness, and then remember the rest of the clues spoken by Waltz. Those two elements together - will get you there.
-SpatanOC

 

[skyhawk1251]

What would you think if I suggest that the doodle is a reverse image? After all it fits the view of Weavers Needle as seen from Coffee Flat Mnt. to the east. Waltz was seen climbing up Coffee Flat by Senior Robles, a cowboy grazing some cattle.

I considered that possibility before posting, but I prefer to think that it's best to explore the direct approach to the problem first without diverting the topic into too many directions. I lean toward the idea that the doodle gives so little information as to where the mine might be located that it was not necessary to further confuse anyone who would be looking at it.

 

[393stroker]

I considered that possibility before posting, but I prefer to think that it's best to explore the direct approach to the problem first without diverting the topic into too many directions. I lean toward the idea that the doodle gives so little information as to where the mine might be located that it was not necessary to further confuse anyone who would be looking at it.

That’s probably why it hasn’t been found, nobody thinks outside the box. I don’t think it’s the Pit Mine, though some believe that it could be.

 

[skyhawk1251]

That’s probably why it hasn’t been found, nobody thinks outside the box. I don’t think it’s the Pit Mine, though some believe that it could be.

I agree that the pit mine and the shaft mine are two different things. The clues for each have been mixed together. You might already know that a pit mine was found many years ago by Jack San Felice in the eastern Superstitions. Please continue your explorations near Coffee Flat. You have as good a chance at finding the LDM as anyone else.

 

[393stroker]

I agree that the pit mine and the shaft mine are two different things. The clues for each have been mixed together. You might already know that a pit mine was found many years ago by Jack San Felice in the eastern Superstitions. Please continue your explorations near Coffee Flat. You have as good a chance at finding the LDM as anyone else.

Yes, I’ve been there and the drift mine too. I was shown its location when it wasn’t well known by a trusted friend. I didn’t get that “this is it “ feeling. There’s a bunch of dig sites in that area if you pick up on the tell tale signs. I did find a frying pan up there though, but it was a folding one from more modern times I would assume.