The Waltz Doodle

[sgtfda]

I’ll check it out

In a way this is funny. Even I fell for this fraud and I'm not a dutch hunter. Wondering why Waltz would sketch this view of Weavers Needle. In my mind it cast doubt on everything spouted as LDM fact. It's a legend that has grown with time. That's how Billy Knight's wife referred to it in the early 1900's. A legend. Not a fact. Yes Waltz had some gold saved up. He had three mines near Prescott. Was he of clear mind in his old age? Garmans Uncle who stayed over at his farm on his way to California said he was nuts and got the hell out of there. Mercury poisoning? You ever talk to John Wilburn a famous mining engineer who was exposed to mercury vapors.? Total fruit loop. If your going to chase a legend chase one you have real facts on. The LDM is not it.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I don't think I've actually looked for the LDM since I was about 17. Just one other outing since then, only to verify something. But being from Phoenix, like most people I thought Dutch Hunters were nuts and the stories were crazy. To this day I have no idea if Jacob Waltz ever had a mine in the Supes (lean towards NO, but that's only my personal opinion) so for me, the fun is in researching the history. I think this story has been on my mind and had me digging here and there, on and off, for about 50 years. I don't know why.

Higham liked to torture the local writers. Here's one with an odd clue:

The clue is how Higham wrote names all over the top of his letter to the poor newsman. One of the names was "Old Jake Miller". Some will recognize that name as being the Dutchman according to Johnny Jones, circa 1903. It was a BS cowboy story, but it involved Dick Holmes stealing a map, fooling the Dutchman to get the bedside story as he died, and being afraid to go into the mountains for fear of being followed and killed. The story is in Dane Coolidge's "Arizona Cowboys" if anyone's interested. Other than naming the Dutchman and his nephew that he killed at Hidden Water as "Jake and Jerry Miller", the story is almost identical to the Holmes Manuscript. Except that Holmes is a thief and villian

Johnny died in the Spanish Flu outbreak, can't remember the exact year without looking it up.

What's interesting about the story is the existence of it only 12 years after Waltz died. The story is BS, but it makes me wonder why it's so similar to the Holmes Manuscript. Was it lifted out of Coolidge's book by Dick or Brownie...or did Johnny hear the story from Dick? If so, why was Dick portrayed as a villain? Things that make me go Hmmm.

BTW, Jake Miller was a very well known AZ pioneer that was a rancher like Jones. I also wonder how his name got put into Johnny's story, it was probably a cowboy joke...Johnny knowing it would get around and cause Miller to have to deny it forever Boys will be boys!

And then, why did Higham write the name "Old Jake Miller" on his letter? Did he think Miller was a name the Dutchman used in addition to Jacob von Walzer? LOL.

This is how legends get mixed up to the point it's impossible to sort it all out. Everyone was making stuff up or writing down BS stories.

 

[markmar]

I don't know who was the author of the drawing, but I know for certain is a 90% reproduction of an image about one mile afar from the LDM. This is the "small valley to the west" told in the German clues. The "long ridge" told in Holmes route, is the mountain you see to the left. So, if Battleship and Palomino are considered mountains, then you can imagine how big is that ridge. The image of WN is not real, nor its orientation or dimension, because in the drawing was used only as a point of reference and not as it looks in reality. So, if you search for the actual place which fits the WN image in the drawing, you are searching in vain. It would leads you in the wrong place and will give you a lot of lost time and big frustation.
But this is only what I know about this "doodle" and for many people I'm considered just an armchair GE researcher. So, you can continue to believe in your theories until your research or someone else will prove you wrong. Good luck to everyone!

 

[Idahodutch]

…………. Things that make me go Hmmm……..

Jim, you hit the nail right on the head 😉
The reason we keep one eye looking over in the direction of those mountains.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim, you hit the nail right on the head 😉
The reason we keep one eye looking over in the direction of those mountains.

The story is like an Everlasting Gobstopper. It will never end. And every time I do a little research, I keep learning new things. It's an amazing tapestry of old Arizona Hassayampin', (lying) but it keeps us busy I suppose

Marius: does this mean that all those PM's you sent me, claiming that the Pit Mine is the LDM aren't true?

 

[markmar]

Wow Jim, I don't remember to have claimed this. I never supported this theory and never will do. Maybe you have confused me with another member or you don't remember what we have discussed. Please post a screenshot of that PM when I claimed the Pit mine is the LDM.
From what I remember , in an very old PM, I asked from you If you can find names of the descendants of the Ted Cox's partner by the name Dunn, and in another PM we have discussed about Azdave35 and some discreet info.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Wow Jim, I don't remember to have claimed this. I never supported this theory and never will do. Maybe you have confused me with another member or you don't remember what we have discussed. Please post a screenshot of that PM when I claimed the Pit mine is the LDM.
From what I remember , in an very old PM, I asked from you If you can find names of the descendants of the Ted Cox's partner by the name Dunn, and in another PM we have discussed about Azdave35 and some discreet info.

I wasn't ever a cowboy, but I've known a few. It rubs off. Cowboy joke, Marius

You used to make fun of me for thinking the Pit Mine might be the LDM. Surely you remember that

 

[markmar]

I wasn't ever a cowboy, but I've known a few. It rubs off. Cowboy joke, Marius

You used to make fun of me for thinking the Pit Mine might be the LDM. Surely you remember that

Ha, then this it's ok. I don't know much about cowboy jokes, so forgive me for this misunderstanding. The Pit mine as LDM is a joke of itself, but always I used to bring some light of truth in this story, using methods which sometimes made people to feel little uncomfortable. I'm sorry if I made you feel in that way.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

No apologies necessary. I thought your responses were hilarious, very good zingers. I can laugh at myself as well as anyone else can

 

[PotBelly Jim]

PS: What you PM'd me about your conversation with Dave is and will remain private.

 

[coazon de oro]

I don't think I've actually looked for the LDM since I was about 17. Just one other outing since then, only to verify something. But being from Phoenix, like most people I thought Dutch Hunters were nuts and the stories were crazy. To this day I have no idea if Jacob Waltz ever had a mine in the Supes (lean towards NO, but that's only my personal opinion) so for me, the fun is in researching the history. I think this story has been on my mind and had me digging here and there, on and off, for about 50 years. I don't know why.

Higham liked to torture the local writers. Here's one with an odd clue:

View attachment 2221469

The clue is how Higham wrote names all over the top of his letter to the poor newsman. One of the names was "Old Jake Miller". Some will recognize that name as being the Dutchman according to Johnny Jones, circa 1903. It was a BS cowboy story, but it involved Dick Holmes stealing a map, fooling the Dutchman to get the bedside story as he died, and being afraid to go into the mountains for fear of being followed and killed. The story is in Dane Coolidge's "Arizona Cowboys" if anyone's interested. Other than naming the Dutchman and his nephew that he killed at Hidden Water as "Jake and Jerry Miller", the story is almost identical to the Holmes Manuscript. Except that Holmes is a thief and villian

Johnny died in the Spanish Flu outbreak, can't remember the exact year without looking it up.

What's interesting about the story is the existence of it only 12 years after Waltz died. The story is BS, but it makes me wonder why it's so similar to the Holmes Manuscript. Was it lifted out of Coolidge's book by Dick or Brownie...or did Johnny hear the story from Dick? If so, why was Dick portrayed as a villain? Things that make me go Hmmm.

BTW, Jake Miller was a very well known AZ pioneer that was a rancher like Jones. I also wonder how his name got put into Johnny's story, it was probably a cowboy joke...Johnny knowing it would get around and cause Miller to have to deny it forever Boys will be boys!

And then, why did Higham write the name "Old Jake Miller" on his letter? Did he think Miller was a name the Dutchman used in addition to Jacob von Walzer? LOL.

This is how legends get mixed up to the point it's impossible to sort it all out. Everyone was making stuff up or writing down BS stories.

Howdy Potbelly Jim,
I hear you, and many others that have been caught in the big flood of lies that came after Jacob Waltz passed away. If you can, climb a tree to save yourself.
The LDM is a real goldmine that has been covered up with lies, and half truths. It is also a real goldmine for storytellers, since it hasn't been found, they can print anything about it, and make a killing. Many believe that if they can't find it, nobody can, and all those printed lies justify their failed efforts.
There are real nuggets of truth under all those lies. Unlike gold, when you pan them, they float to the top, you just need a good eye to see them. I'm not a cowboy either "no cowboy will find my mine", I am a horseman.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I kind of got the impression you were a horseman, Homar. Just make sure to pasture it to the north of the river

I'm not saying there was no mine...Note that I said that I didn't think Jacob Waltz had a mine in the Supes. Or what people think of as the Supes nowadays. But all I know is that I could be wrong, it happens. (I need a LAUGHING emoji here...I'm wearing out the Wink emoji). (Found it).

 

[sgtfda]

That's funny. A cowboy did find it.

 

[393stroker]

That's funny. A cowboy did find it.

Thought it was a school teacher

 

[sgtfda]

That school teacher was a cowboy first.

 

[coazon de oro]

I kind of got the impression you were a horseman, Homar. Just make sure to pasture it to the north of the river

I'm not saying there was no mine...Note that I said that I didn't think Jacob Waltz had a mine in the Supes. Or what people think of as the Supes nowadays. But all I know is that I could be wrong, it happens. (I need a LAUGHING emoji here...I'm wearing out the Wink emoji). (Found it).

Waltz himself pointed, and said "It's in those Salt Mountains". Even Dick Holmes followed him into the Supes, and Waltz's directions take you into those Supes. I've had you on the smart list for a long time, don't make me look for an eraser.

 

[Gare]

Some thing else might help a LOT a drone. You can put the thing you got those other pictures of in about the same place in your camera lens and then take a picture. Then if you think you have the location you cane fly it in much closer .Just make sure you have spare batteries

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Waltz himself pointed, and said "It's in those Salt Mountains". Even Dick Holmes followed him into the Supes, and Waltz's directions take you into those Supes. I've had you on the smart list for a long time, don't make me look for an eraser.

You had ME on the smart list? And here I thought YOU had your wits about you

So just what are the "Salt River Mountains"? What are the boundaries?

Waltz knew Holmes was following him. He led him up Tortilla Creek to solve that particular problem. Away from the mine.

Edit: The Supes are a good place to quietly resolve these kinds of problems. Waltz was a man that had survived the Indian troubles in CA and AZ. Looking in the papers, guys were getting killed left and right, by Indian, Anglo, and Mexican. I don't think he was the type to talk things out when someone was sneaking around on his backtrail. I think he would've interpreted that as a direct and immediate threat to his life. And I don't think he would've been dumb enough to continue to his mine with someone on his trail. I think he would've led the scumbag to a good ambush point that was far off the trail to the mine.

The only law that existed out there was what you could enforce yourself. Nobody would be coming to help, Waltz was on his own.

 

[sdcfia]

I'm only tangentially interested in the LDM history have never been a believer in the generally accepted version(s) of the legend. That said, I wonder if any of you well-informed LDM researchers can verify that a person known as "Bud Dozier", an alleged acquaintance/friend/drinking buddy of Waltz, actually existed in AZ during that era?

I have an apparently little-known vanity press book that I bought at a yard sale for 25¢, written by an AZ pioneer woman who did many years of research for "lost mines", way back in the day. The first half of the book deals with the Lost Adams Diggings, arriving at a conclusion that seems unique, but that I personally disagree with. The second half covers several well-known AZ "lost mines". The book alleges that Dozier, a "whang-leather pioneer" friend of the author's family, was a scout at Fort McDowell in 1865, in 1871 had a careful duplicate of the "Ramon Peralta map", and after getting Waltz drunk one night, got him to reveal how he (Waltz) incorrectly used the map. It's a new twist, the resulting opinion that Waltz was a fake, at least as far as the mine being in the Superstitions.

Anyone ever heard of Bud Dozier?

 

[Cubfan64]

In a way this is funny. Even I fell for this fraud and I'm not a dutch hunter. Wondering why Waltz would sketch this view of Weavers Needle. In my mind it cast doubt on everything spouted as LDM fact. It's a legend that has grown with time. That's how Billy Knight's wife referred to it in the early 1900's. A legend. Not a fact. Yes Waltz had some gold saved up. He had three mines near Prescott. Was he of clear mind in his old age? Garmans Uncle who stayed over at his farm on his way to California said he was nuts and got the hell out of there. Mercury poisoning? You ever talk to John Wilburn a famous mining engineer who was exposed to mercury vapors.? Total fruit loop. If your going to chase a legend chase one you have real facts on. The LDM is not it.

What gets me the most is hearing people use the word "fact" when they are literally talking about legends and rumors. There has always been VERY LITTLE FACT behind much of the LDM saga. Things like his existence, where he lived, legal records he left behind - those are as close as you're going to get to fact. EVERYTHING else is at very best second hand and most has gone through so many iterations, it's barely worth discussing.

I think people just find themselves locked into where they're convinced it is, then backtrack and use "clues" to bolster their case - ignore the ones that don't and use the ones that do.