Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

""""((((Hopefully the entrance of this cavern will remain unknown to the general public and therefore it may survive into another century))))"""" Tom does that go for any historical cavern or location? Does keeping things unknown really protect? Dont the people of the world have the right to know? I would like to here peoples opinions here on treasurenet

 

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[Cubfan64]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

SFNM - I assume you are referring to this....

http://www.superstitionmountain.info/chronicles/2010/07_12_10.html

I'm surprised to say that I actually understand your point of view as that's the exact same one I had when I first read the story. After sitting back and thinking more about it and considering how to word an e-mail to Mr. Kollenborn to talk about the issue, my initial thoughts started to change.

From a purely personal, jealous and selfish standpoint, yes, of course I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE the opportunity to see something like this cave and be able to explore it. On the other hand, there is a "reality" of the situation that has to be considered as well.

If the coordinates of this cave system were made public and/or the entrance was opened and widened so everyone could experience it, how long do you think it would actually stay "pristine?" If you're honest with yourself, you know as well as I do that it would take no time whatsoever for graffiti to appear, for unscrupulous pot and relic hunters to explore and take off with anything that may happen to be inside (if anything) not to even mention the short time it would take before someone died inside.

If you're at all like me, and you're honest with yourself, you find yourself thinking... "but I'm not like those kinds of people!" My only interest lies in that feeling of euphoria that comes with exploring someplace that very few people on earth have ever been - that feeling of "blazing a trail" through unknown territory, not knowing what's around the next corner or under that rock, etc...

I would give my eye teeth for an opportunity to see where this cave is, be part of an "exploration team" and document all of it - it would be one of those "top experiences of my life" moments, but there's an evergrowing part of me that understands what happens when real "treasures" like this become public knowledge. Sadly, I have to admit that Mr. Kollenborn is probably correct that something like this should remain unknown for the most part.

*sigh* - I hate to say that, but it's true.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

I see your point ---- But What lengths do you or anyone go to in order to KEEP SOMETHING UNKNOWN """"((((What are the limits))))"""" if any, and where do you or any one """"((((draw the line?))))"""" How does one actively or preemptively attempt to keep something unknown? And if other people are helping you to keep a secret how do you control """"((((how far they will go))))"""" with unscrupulous methods to make sure to keep something unknown? At what point will the ends justify the means?

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

I see your point ---- But What lengths do you or anyone go to in order to KEEP SOMETHING UNKNOWN """"((((What are the limits))))"""" if any, and where do you or any one """"((((draw the line?))))"""" How does one actively or preemptively attempt to keep something unknown? And if other people are helping you to keep a secret how do you control """"((((how far they will go))))"""" with unscrupulous methods to make sure to keep something unknown? At what point will the ends justify the means?

and THAT....... of course is the ultimate set of questions that apply here.

I don't have an answer for that SFNM, and I don't think there is just one answer to any of those questions. I'm afraid those questions just have to be answered by each individual person who comes across something that they have to decide if they want to share or not.

For me, I think if I were to ever come across something unique and "important" at least in my mind, I would likely share the discovery with a very few select individuals - people I believe I could trust to keep it to themselves, but who would enjoy and appreciate seeing it firsthand. It's always possible one of those people could pick "several" of their closest friends to also share it with, and so on and so on until word got out to the general public at which point it would be destroyed or at the very least ruined, but that's a risk I would probably take.

I'll be curious to find out if anyone else responds to this thread because I think it's a very interesting one.

 

[BILL96]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

If you were the first person to find Carlsbad caverns would you have kept the secret? or the first person to step into yellowstone? What are you "protecting" and who are you protecting it from? I have certainly come across some very special places that I feel a little protective about and when I really think about it, it is for totally selfish reasons, I want it to be my secret and no one Else's. Maybe if I would have been the first to see the massive Indian cliff dwelling in SW colorado I would have kept it to myself because I wanted it to be my secret pristine place, would this have been fair to the rest of the world? do they deserve to see and experience this truly in credable place? can I trust them not to destroy my secret pristine place? I will have to think about it.

Bill

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

If you were the first person to find Carlsbad caverns would you have kept the secret? or the first person to step into yellowstone? What are you "protecting" and who are you protecting it from? I have certainly come across some very special places that I feel a little protective about and when I really think about it, it is for totally selfish reasons, I want it to be my secret and no one Else's. Maybe if I would have been the first to see the massive Indian cliff dwelling in SW colorado I would have kept it to myself because I wanted it to be my secret pristine place, would this have been fair to the rest of the world? do they deserve to see and experience this truly in credable place? can I trust them not to destroy my secret pristine place? I will have to think about it.

Bill

Bill,

I considered the same thing you did about other "special" places that people shared with others such as the ones you mentioned, but do you see what all those places have in common? The 3 you mentioned are all National Parks - all "protected" FOR as well as FROM the public. I assume at least one of the reasons has to do with ensuring that nobody can deface, destroy or otherwise harm them while at the same time, allowing enough access so that people can enjoy them to at least some extent.

The problem is, what about the other hundreds, thousands or maybe millions of smaller unique places? The simple fact remains that they ALL can't be treated the same way as our National Parks - there just isn't enough money for that. Choices have to be made, and in many cases, they have to be made by the finders.

I have a guess as to what would happen if the Forest Service knew exactly where the caverns that in this case Mr. Kollenborn is talking about. I'm guessing the entrance would have more than just a few rocks covering and hiding it, and how can you blame them? While they may idealistically love to share them with anyone who happened to come by, they can't staff it and they would have a responsibility to keep it from being a danger.

This is a REALLY DIFFICULT discussion with alot of good points on both sides of the argument. I continue to hope people add to the discussion.

 

[BILL96]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

I do agree with you its a difficult and very individual question. Several years ago and after much research a located a lost site of a skirmish between Indians and calvery that took place in 1881. It was totally undisturbed, bullet casings all around like it just happend yesterday. I felt like I was the first one to step on that ground since 1881. I spent some time with a metal detector and collected quite a few items and I have never revealed this location to anyone except my wife.
Oddly enough I feel some guilt for removing the artifacts that I did. Sometimes I think I should have just left everything as it had been for the past 125 years and not disturbed this unique place. I have that bag of "treasures" on the shelf in the back room and I wonder if I should have just left things where I found them and just enjoyed finding the location.

Bill

 

[gollum]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

I think the gist of Tom K's Article was not about just hiding the cave, but (in his own words) hiding it until it can be properly protected!

If it is out in the middle of the Supes, far from anything else, these is really no way for the Forest Service to maintain or secure it from vandalism. We have several people I could name on this forum alone that would dash there and start breaking "diamonds" off the walls.

Something that is in the middle of wilderness is on one hand, protected by virtue of its' remoteness, and on the other vulnerable should anybody find and wish to exploit it.

Tom K. is right to keep it a secret for now. Although nobody wishes for him to pass on any time soon, as he is getting older, he should share that location with somebody.

Best-Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

I think the gist of Tom K's Article was not about just hiding the cave, but (in his own words) hiding it until it can be properly protected!

If it is out in the middle of the Supes, far from anything else, these is really no way for the Forest Service to maintain or secure it from vandalism. We have several people I could name on this forum alone that would dash there and start breaking "diamonds" off the walls.

Something that is in the middle of wilderness is on one hand, protected by virtue of its' remoteness, and on the other vulnerable should anybody find and wish to exploit it.

Tom K. is right to keep it a secret for now. Although nobody wishes for him to pass on any time soon, as he is getting older, he should share that location with somebody.

Best-Mike

You're correct Mike - in this case I came to the same conclusion that as much as I hated to say it, Tom shouldn't reveal the location with any more than one very trusted individual if and when he chooses. If it remains hidden, that just means that it's "out there" for some other lucky person to stumble across one day

Bill - it's truly an individual thing. If I had been the person who found the location you did, I would have taken tons of photos, tried to document whatever I could and would have very likely taken a few "trinkets" to display and remind myself of what I had discovered.

I'd say if it still bothers you now and then, make another trip out there one day and return your finds from where they came. In fact, if you have a child or grandchild, take them with and explain what you're doing and why - that could be one of those really good memories we all strive to take with us as long as possible .

 

[Loke]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

It is a very difficult situation indeed. I think I share Cubfan64's sentiment - at first saying it should be made public, then after some soul-searching thinking ... maybe not. As humans, we all need something to reach for (be it material or not). Some find their meaning in 'belief', they strive to find that 'next' level. Others find their satisfaction in more material matter.
If _I_ should be the lucky one, I would say it's mine to enjoy - not to exploit but to enjoy the pristine-ness (is there such a word??) of it all. I would take pictures, yes - but I believe I would most enjoy it knowing that I _know_ what others have searched for for eons. Does that make any sense?

Nature contains some wonderful things - why spoil it? (and yes, it would be spoiled if everyone knew about it).
In short - leave it be!

Just my 2c-worth ...

Per

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

Ok I believe it should be properly and fully protected just like Carlsbad Caverns, And be there for our childeren and grandchilderen to see. I suggest we raise money just like we did to """"((((successfully save our lost dutchman park.))))"""" we could start an Advertising campaign to raise the correct amount of money needed and once the money was actually raised it would be permenently, and properly protected we and everyone share this wonder. And I dont want to put Beth on the Spot but whats your take on this Beth? Any one else? Tom? "-------- Successfully Save And Share The Cave --------" Beth How Much Money Would We Need To Raise If It Was Possible?

 

[Nugget Hunter Smith]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

Tom did reveal the general location in the article. It is inside the Superstition Wilderness and is already protected by many laws. It is hard to get to and that will keep most visitors away plus Tom sealed it with rocks so it is not viable to raise money because the Federal Government will not make it an attraction. They remove more and more off of the maps everytime they update them. Heck the latest Tonto National Forest map does not even have Weavers Needle on it. Remember their goal is to discourage people from going into the Wilderness not encourage more.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

Mr. Smith,

What you said.......with one addition. I don't believe Tom will be revealing the location of that cave to anyone in his lifetime.

Take care,

Joe

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

""""I don't believe Tom will be revealing the location of that cave to anyone in his lifetime.""""

I suppose there is a real thing called """"((((sworn to secrecy.))))"""" And remember not just Tom found that cave there have been others.

 

[dustcap]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

If you would like to see what happened to this cave that was kept secret for twenty years go here http://azstateparks.com/Parks/KACA/index.html

 

[dustcap]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

If you follow the youtube link shown on the video included on their webpage, you can see this short (under 4 minutes) clip about the history of the cave at:
The parks dept should have people in the pictures to show the massive size of this cave. I was lucky enough to visit the first time it was open to the public. It's located southeast of Tucson, AZ and definitely worth the trip.

On a side note; I wonder how many bats got trapped inside when Tom closed it up? A little bit of knowledge about bats is what lead the finders of Kartchner Cavern to discover it. They smelled bat dung (called guano) odor coming out of a small opening in the ground on the side of a hill as the "living" cave "breathed." They dug it out big enough and crawled in. SUPRISE!!!!! HOW did the bats find it? Probably by the air moving out through the hole Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

"The preservation of cultural history of this region is very difficult to preserve because of the policy of wilderness management. Only Native American sites and cultural materials are protected. Even hundred year old mining or ranching sites can not be preserved for the future. Most non-Native American sites have been removed or destroyed because they are not conducive to the Wilderness Management Plan. """"((((There is an "urgent" need for many of the sites to have GPS coordinates recorded and preserved for the future because the government does not allow plaques or any marking of historical sites.))))'''''" Tom Kollenborn Quoted

I must say Mr. Tom Kollenborn, I am completely in agreement with this statement. I would like to hear comments from others on this "Urgency." Sincerely John V. Kemm

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

i saw the cat and he saw me .. the game we played is always free

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

""""((((Protect by Recording Gps Locations))))"""" """"((((URGENCY))))""""

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Tom Kollenborn "Quoted"

""""((((Protect by Recording Gps Locations))))"""" """"((((URGENCY))))""""

ya why not just give them the location and hand them the gun as well ..