tomorrow noon at guana river hearing upon THE RULES SEE YOU THERE -- IVAN

[ivan salis]

YES IF YOU WATER HUNT OR MIGHT EVER WANT TO FILE FOR A SHIPWRECK FIND & RECOVEREY PERMIT * you need to be there these "rules" are basically in effect laws --with ths they could stop shipwreck recovery as we know it . --speak your piece --tell them not just no--- but hell no to the bad laws ---

how to get there from jacksonville --- I 95 south to James Turner Butler Blvd. (JTB) go left on it to A1A then turn right on A1A till you see guana river state park - once there just look about you'll find it easy I'm sure. (or just come down A1A --if you can )

humm a tuesday at 12 noon hearing / meeting in a ritzy rich neighborhood area ----(hey a middle of work week day at noon -- I guess they really don't want the real general publics input with this type of timing now do they ? by the way state of florida deer hunting focus groups have meet at night at cecil feild --I know I've attended them in the past --what afraid to put the meeting at a time and place where blue collar working class --"we the people" might be able to show up?--- its a simple good old political "sandbagging" attempt if I ever seen one --

with the email cut off at oct 17th I hope you all emailed them to the max -- Ivan

 

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[scubatreasure]

Ivan any word on what went down at the meeting....



Am i a pirate....or private salvor working to preserve for future generations....

 

[ivan salis]

they were clearly set on running "the show" their way --- they put it at a out of way location --far from any major city * and quite far from the areas that the salvors work out of (the keys and 1715 fleet areas) -- they did not start till 12 noon sharp and said since the place closes at 4 pm we must cut things "off" at 3 "30 pm --so 3 1/2 hours only -- then they said that this was the last meeting before the state makes its "recommended" rules to put before the legislature--- so it was the "public input" according to the state (they want to bum rush this thru -- before even more folks find out and protest to their elected officals * ) the e mail cut off was oct 17th. 2008

---I pointed out that the 500 yard beach / recreational area "buffer" zone would in effect makle it illegal to metal detect on the beach and in shallow waters --- many tourist come to florida in a attempt to find "their bit of treasure " while metal detecing here in florida --this means "Millions" to the state of florida economy -- making it illegal would drive these tourist eslewhere --to a more "freindly state" costing the state florida a loss of millions that we can ill afford in these tough economic times--- after taking note of that dr wheeler very wisely -said that that section about "beaches and "recreational area swould be repealled" ( they can not touch the scared cow of tourism* ) cuz its all about da money.

I also talked about how in the first meeting we were told e mails from persons outside of the USA ( mostly aussie archies) would be given even standing to that of american citizens e mails and even those who attended the meeting -- I asked why foreign persons should have any say in "our" domestic policy matters -- they do nort "vote" in our elections or pay taxes here --so why should their "view" matter ? and said it smacked of foreign interferance in our domestic matters"

last thing ---was the fact that to be a "recognized archie" by the state of florida -- rou got to belong to a group called SOPRA that in their by laws --says that you will not work for for profiet salvors * theus the state is setting a impossible standard to meet -- you need a archie from this group to get a permit -- the archie by the by laws of their group are prohibbited from work for for profiets -- a nice neat illegal catch 22 designed by the state to stop salvors from getting permits.

that my basic report --- Ivan

 

[pegleglooker]

hey gang,
Seems like the only solution will be to take the state to court for interfering with your right to earn a living. This approach has been successful a lot of times. If you can " prove " that your income is made by salvaging, then you might have a case. The Floridian Salvager's would have to file a class action suit against the state, SOPRA, and anyone is they feel is liable. That way you could push it up to the supreme court ( of the US ) if needed... But you all better have some DEEP pockets...

Good Luck
PLL

 

[diverlynn]

The gas cost to go to meeting $75
The cost of loosing a day of work $100+

The ring tone "yes, I am a pirate"
which played during the meeting when Jim Sinclair's phone rang PRICELESS!!!


diverlynn

 

[shpwrk1]

Just a note of Thanks to all that came out to support the effort to have the Bureau of Archaeological Research create a fair rule that treats the private sector salvage community as it deserves, with respect and gratitude for the 5 decades of work that has been accomplished on various sites around the State. Chuck and his pals at LAMP can whine all they like, the fact is that the private sector has contributed vast amounts of knowledge to history and archaeology here in Florida and will (God willing) continue to do so. Far-far more than LAMP or the other institutional folks.
For those of you who were at the Meeting (Ivan this means you) -
Thanks
Jim

 

[PhipsFolly]

Well, I was glad to make it to the meeting and wanted to say thanks to all who were there! It was great to see some familiar faces and make some new friends as well.

John Brandon & Jim Sinclair were both brilliant and well spoken and all the others who stood up and said their piece... thank you!

Whether we were successful or not in swaying the odds in our favor, the show of support definately made an impression in my personal opinion and was worth the time, money, and effort. I hope the FL DHR is going to see the light and realize that they NEED us and their jobs rely on the support of the citizens and private sector salvors whether they like it or not...

And Diver Lynn... well put... I was laughing all night long about Jim's incredibly "well" timed ring tone!!!

All the best! Mike (Phips Folly)

 

[bikerlawyer]

In addition to all the folks that did a great job speaking, I want to point out that Mary Hansen, Esq. did an excellent job attacking them from a legal, procedural standpoint.

The State lawyer couldn't even tell her if this was the "final" hearing on the matter or not. I don't think he knew the difference or that it would trigger a time deadline for an appeal.

Or maybe he did know and was hoping she didn't?

It did appear though that Dr. Wheeler was open minded on several of the controversial issues.

If there is any way to stop this, at least for now, that is the way to do it.

IMHO the only way to obtain a good, fair, workable solution is through litigation with the State and that will require cooperation from all of us and, unfortunately, $$$ and time.

But, it is an opportunity that we have never had before!

 

[billinstuart]

I would like to thank those of you who committed the time and funds to personally attend the hearing on behalf of us treasure hunters.

THANK YOU!!!!


Bill Frondorf

 

[keegah]

Theater of the absurd:my friend wanted to dress as jack sparrow to inject some irony, absurdity and fun into the hearing/meeting/forum.Jim's phone ring achieved all three in one fell swoop.Ya couldn't have scripted that one! I busted a gut. On a more serious note, i had the opportunity to speak w/Dr Wheeler and i got the impression that he is a reasonable man who would be open for dialogue w/the private salvage community.As one who has spent some time in the ivy-covered halls; not all intellectuals are elitist snobs.To all who sacrificed their time,money and effort; a heartfelt "HUZZAH" keegah

 

[ivan salis]

I am a smart enough man to know we must work with the state ---now when will the state realize this as well?together we can do great things at little cost to no cost to the state *-- and bring in / promote jobs into the state -- increase tourism (folks just love to see the shiney treasure items of old.) -- the state gets money from permits issued / plus a nice 20% cut of the goodies for their collection --archies get lots of feild work to do working for the salvors --- the treasure outfits get 80% of the goodies ---to put out on the market -- thus giving the public a chance to LEGALLY own a bit of history with the "documantaion to "prove" what it is --thus it aids in cutting down on the selling of "looted" items (since they can never get "papers" being they were gained illegally)--- who would want a hot not "provible" coin --when they can have a legal one with papers instead? Ivan

 

[FISHEYE]

Whoever is near the next election rally with Obama or McCain.When the crowd gets really quiet before they speak.YELL OUT:IM JOE THE FLORIDA TREASURE HUNTER,THE STATE OF FLORIDA IS TRYING TO BAN TREASURE HUNTING.WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO FOR ME?



I bet it makes national news!

 

[billinstuart]

Ivan makes an interesting point. We are known as "The Treasure Coast". Floridas main industry is tourism. There is certainly some economic truth that people come to this area specifically to search out beaches. Just look at this forum. Nothing speaks louder to politicians than money. Local tourist and visitors bureaus, chambers of commerce, business development boards, congressmen..all should be in favor of allowing unfettered access because of the VALUE TO THE COMMUNITIES ALONG THE BEACHES!

The state has its' parks and preserves, and has established its rules for them. The rest of the submerged lands owned by the state and governed by the trustees is "for the benefit and enjoyment of the residents (and visitors) of the state".

Perhap$ we need to talk to the power$ that be in term$ of dollar$?

 

[FISHEYE]

I think its time for a lawyer to file the freedom of information act on where all the florida treasure is that the state has in thier safes,U-store it storage units and museums.Request all the treasure and artifacts on thier whereabouts.What treasure companies gave them since the state started regulating treasure salvors.Also extensive background checks done on all state employees at the state archie dept.Find out how much they are paid,how many bribes/gifts they accepted from universities for getting fast salvage contracts,what they spent tax payers money on,etc.Investigative reporters do all this and find out dirt on crooked politicians all the time.Why not get the dirt on whos trying to put us all out of the treasure biz?

 

[bikerlawyer]

You don't have to be a lawyer to do it!

But I think it's a good idea so I'll check into it.

I'm just not sure about the timing, I'd hate for it to screw up any progress we are making with the State.

What does everyone else think?

Brad

 

[bikerlawyer]

OK I researched this and know how to do it.

The Freedom Of Information Act is only for requests to the federal government.

For the State, we would do a Public Records Request under Fla. Stat. § 119.07.

Learn something everyday!

I think we should wait though until the State makes their next move, what say all?

 

[FISHEYE]

Its not just for the feds.

http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/main/b2f05db987e9d14c85256cc7000b28f6!OpenDocument


www.cepri.state.fl.us/pdf/Sunshine Laws.pdf


http://floridasunshinelaw.blogspot.com/index.html


http://www.floridafaf.org/


www.ethics.state.fl.us/publications/2008 Guide.pdf


http://www.lobbytools.com/article.cfm?13434355


http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring04/Rick/thelaw.html

 

[ivan salis]

yes its called "the sunshine law" that all state of florida govt records are open to the public * but know that the fla state beauru of arch. had "provisions" made in it for them "to" protect wrecksite info passed on to them from having to be revealed to the public (to prevent being forced to give up wrecksite info)-- know that they MIGHT try to hide behind this "loop hole" Ivan

 

[bikerlawyer]

I'm sorry i guess I should have clarified it.

FOIA (5 U.S.C. § 552) only applies to the federal government.

The idea is the same for Florida, they just call it a "Public Record" request under Florida Statute Section 119.

Ivan do you have any more info on the "loop hole" provision?

 

[ivan salis]

basically the "loop hole" is to allow them the right to deny a records request if the requested records might contain wrecksite locations or info --( since the salvors MUST report all such info to the state -- and thesalvors just don't want just "anyone" to read it --very understandible) --however if you make a "blanklet request" say all e mail of dr ryan wheeler from from say 6/1/2008 to 10/1/2008 --you most likely would be turned down --(most likely since wrecksite info would be mixed in it.)--- so your request would have to be more "targeted"---ie all e mail of dr ryan wheeler from 6/1/2008 to 10/1/2008 excluding those with wrecksite info in them. ---Ivan

the provision was sold to the legislature as a "security" measure to protect "sensitive and valuible info" from being extracted from the state archives and records by folks who wanted to loot wrecksites. --- but in effect they can stall your researching in the archives -- by claiming its "exclued" information ---- so sorry request denied.

aslo a lot of "hidden knowledge" is stashed behind the JSTOR* --HIGH LEVEL COLLEGE RESEARCH --USED FOR MASTER DEGREES AND ABOVE MOSTLY -- THE ADVERAGE LAYMAN CAN NOT ACCESS THIS INFO --but some college level folks can. --- Ivan