Treasure Lores

[Tom_in_CA]

Pegleglooker, I know you're just posting the various legends for amusement sakes (right?) but as your name suggests (Pegleg "looker"), I surmise you take some stock in the various stories? I just want to add some balance here: Don't forget the way these stories evolve. I mean, look down the line at all the "facts" in each of the treasure lores. How did they come to us today? "Someone who told someone who told someone who told ....." well, you get the pix. And if something was source info of the day (microfilmed old newspaper clipping for instance) you're still relying on someone's version. While I don't doubt that some of the stories had roots in fact, I also believe that the vast majority of them get emblished, even though the quoted parties insist things are factual.

For example: Having been in this for over 30 yrs, I've had the following encounters numerous times: I'll be detecting at an urban demolition site (or school yard, or beach, or wherever), and someone will stand afar off watching me. Finally they come over to talk to me, and spin a fabulous tale of "this guy who was detecting here 20 yrs. ago, and found handfuls of gold and silver coins!". I listen intently, trying to glean clues as to the story, where the stuff was found, who it was, etc.... Finally, I realize, the guy is talking about me! I'll tell the guy, "yes, I was here when the building next door was torn out (or beach storm hit, or whatever), and yes, I got a silver dollar and some seateds, tokens, etc.... But no, I would hardly call it a treasure, or "handfuls" etc... The person telling me the story just can't believe it's not true. He insists it must be someone else. How does he know? Because his brother in law was driving the tractor, and saw it with his own eyes! You see how stories get morphed, in the sincere human desire to believe treasure lore? Pretty soon, things are just taken as fact, as generous imaginations add in details.

Another example: A friend of mine was detecting an old-town sidewalk demolition. He found some kind of charm, that appeared to be gold, with a stone, that appeared to be an emerald. He showed it to the demolition Co. guys, and mused that "it might be gold, and if this is a real emerald, it will be worth big bucks!". At home that night, he found out it was only gold plated, and the stone was merely glass. A few days later, they'd ripped out more sidewalk, and he was back out there detecting again. This time, a new worker, who hadn't been there the day he found the charm, saw him detecting. This different worker eyeballed him awhile, and finally got the courage to come over and talk to him. The worker told my friend about "this guy who had been here a few days earlier, and found an antique gold amulet worth thousands of dollars!". My friend inquired as to the details, and eventually realized that this worker was talking about him, and HIS charm! He tried to tell the guy "no, it was me, and no, the charm was just costume jewelry". But the worker would not be dissuaded that easily. He was confident that the water-cooler talk he'd heard the previous day or two, was not incorrect.

You see how the human pscyhe works? Check out all the treasure stories: It's usually some guy who was the lone survivor of an indian attack, who stumbles into a saloon. Upon his dying words, reveals a fortune just waiting to be found. Or a posse who catches up with the bandits, kills them all except one. And "wouldn't you know it", but last guy confesses to having "buried the loot off yonder". So they hang the horse thief on the spot, go looking for the loot, but never find it. I mean c'mon, if they'd found the loot on the person, and wanted to keep it for themselves (posse work deserves its rewards, right? ) what better story to tell? Or if he had buried it, and a posse member actually found it, do you think he'd blab and tell the world? Of course not! The recovery is never broadcast, so all we have today is, the "un-recovered" loot story.

And when we read these things, our minds want so hard to believe them, that no amount of reason will prevail against the "hope".

 

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[Old California]

Tom,

Look at PLL's (Treasure tales Part 4, Story number 82.) About Tiburcio Vasquez and his outlaws raiding the stage stop of Kingston, This really did happen but one error is very noticeable on this story but for the most part some truth to the raid.

The error is that it didn't happen at Kingston Lassen County but did happen in Kingston Tulare County, So the error is the wrong County. Plus, Just recently several years ago someone found a cache of gold coins about 300-400 yards from the ghost town of Kingston. Could it have been buried by the bandit before he died?

I'll copy and paste the Tiburcio Vasquez Kingston raid below from PLL's post, Yes over a period of years these stories do get twisted and stretched but in some cases valuable information can still be obtained. The ghost town of Kingston is 30 miles from my home, Only a few of us know were it is and if you guys want me to post some pictures of this ghost town in the future let me know.

82. In 1873, Tiburcio Vasquez and his outlaws raided the stage stop of Kingston. The bandits bound 39 men and robbed three area stores
before the alarm was given. In their mad dash to their horses, 3 were shot and killed. The man carrying the loot was wounded but managed to
make his way across the river. Finding no horse, he buried the money and tried to escape on foot. A skeleton was found years later and the
treasure was never recovered. The town of Kingston is no longer in existence in Lassen County and does not appear on any of this author's maps

 

[Ant]

Tom, you are so right on point. It’s the same thing that happened in the rumor mill. Case in point:
When I was in the Army they showed us a scientifically controlled experiment that depicted how rumors get started and grow out of control. One of the episodes depicted a person that was originally shot with a bb gun. And after the story was told by a 4th person, it was said that the person was blown away by a shotgun. Not exactly the same scenario, but it shows how human nature is.

Hey, I think I saw you on Cold Case Files, it was just a quick flash, but I saw you, cool .

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hi Ant! Yeah that was a 1 second glance at the back of my head on cold case files. I'm famous now. You want me to autograph your metal detector? haha Imagine our surprise, a year or so after we found that gun for the sherrifs, when the "Cold Case Files" program called to see if we'd be interested in getting interviewed about our part in that. We said "sure!" (thinking, this oughta be fun, and we'd be on TV, etc...) They got a few of us out to the country side, where the hunt had actually been done. We walked about w/our detectors acting like we were detecting. They asked us each a few questions, with the movie cameras taping our respones. But when the final cutting room results were shown, there was just a scant 5 seconds or so of the backsides of our heads, as we were looking at sherrif's talking to us. And a passing glance at us under some oak trees (like I say, real fast.... you had to pay close attention or it was lost in the minutia of the case). However, they did include an actual interview clip with Warren, of San Jose, who commented on his actual finding it (he was the one in the posse who scored with the find).

The area of the search was something like a half mile long, and 20 to 40 yards wide. Quite a bit of real estate! The criminal accomplice who confessed to having buried/hidden the gun some 10+ yrs. earlier, could not remember exactly where he'd buried it. At first, when he made his jail-house confession, he told them "sure, I can lead you right to it". But when they got him out there in the squad car, with his shackles on, things weren't quite so clear anymore. Every oak tree started to look the same, after 10 yrs. Bear in mind he buried it in the dark night, and was probably stoned or drunk at the time. After a few efforts with their in-house department metal detector, at various trees he pointed to, he started to change his story and say he really didn't remember how far he hiked, before burying it. That was when they called hobbyists to get a team out there.

 

[pegleglooker]

Hey gang,
Well, let me start by saying everyone makes a good point. On the surface, all or most of these stories have something amiss. To me, that what makes it interesting, these stories are just a starting point. I'm sure most of us have looked at a story and started to track it down only to realize that it was bogus. Old Cal makes a very valid point, he has some " inside " info about Vasquez and knows that the story has the wrong location. I mean, Mel Fisher found the Atocha only after a researcher realized that everyone was looking in the wrong area. All I really do is look at a story, size it up, and then begin the search ( with microfiche, old books etc ). If it leads nowhere then I move on... I try not to use new books because I do feel that they are mostly just " rehashed " material. It cracks me up how some people will quote a particular book as " fact " and if you look in the back at the authors sources he quoting another book only 5 years earlier. This is what led me to the book Golden Mirages by Philip Bailey 1941. This book to me, is the " bible " of SoCal lore. Then I wondered where he got his info, and was able to find his notes and research at a University library.

[attach2]


He also has a extensive list of books and articles from which he drew from. Remember back in his day not everyone had a copier and a computer. But I had my hands on the real newspaper clippings from the late 1800's and early 1900's. To me that was treasure enough... I also tried to get some of the books that he listed but, that are waaayyyy expensive. I also saw correspondence with the Huntington library to sell these books and how happy Huntington was to get them ( they are very rare today ). Point being, if you look hard enough there usually is something there. And yes there is a lot of people playing " telephone ". But, one has to look past that and see if there is anything that might be worth the time and effort. Example, I have been interested in outlaw lore lately, and I'm wondering if one could find the places where the posse caught up with them. Why... To see if I could find " proof " of the battle. Shell casings etc. I don't think there will be any gold, but to find the casing would be a historical coup..In my opinion.... In SoCal there is a story of Juan Flores who ambushed a posse led by sheriff James R. Barton just outside San Juan Capistrano, five law officers were killed in this melee. Where did it happen exactly and is there anything in the ground I don't know but to me it's worth a little time for some research. Mainly because right now the desert is just toooo hot to go out to. I just try to do most of my research during the summer and head out during the winter. So I'm always looking for a new lead. The stuff that I listed was just to pique some interest or to see if anyone ( like Old Cal ) had anything to add to them. I hope this sheds a little more light on why I posted these leads. Have fun...

enjoy
PLL

 

[Ant]

Hey Tom, that’s how it always works, it happened to me too. But I saw you, and I knew it was you, that was cool .

PLL it's up to the seeker to find and hash out all the bogus stuff. If not, there wouldn't be a sorry to write. That's because anyone would be able to take a story verbatim, and then go and get the treasure. That would be the end of the story. As it is, most of the stories are based on some true, so it’s up to the seeker to discern what is turth/real, then take the correct course.

Thanks for posting .

 

[pegleglooker]

hey gang,
There was one thing that I wanted to add, and that is if you want to find more accurate info, then check historical facts ( via history books, websites, libraries, historical societies, etc ). That is why I post some of the more " historical " stories. It is in this info one made be able to find a clue. And ALWAYS get multiple sources to see if they all have the same conclusion..

PLL

 

[Old California]

Thanks PLL for sharing with us some of your sources of gathering up important information, You truly have a passion for history and the know-how of gathering up important data.

You're a valuable forum friend and historian, Tom and all of us can learn from you....Thanks so much

Paul (Ca)

 

[pegleglooker]

hey gang,
Thank you Old Cal... But I'm just a nother cog in the box... Glad to help.

PLL

 

[gollum]

Naaaah PLL,

More like a Spacely Sprocket!

Folks,

One other thing is that many times when more than one story takes place in the same area, they tend to get intertwined. Case in point (from PLLs Post):

Pegleg's Lost Mine

There are three stories that occurred in the same area:

1. Pegleg's HILL of Black Gold Nuggets
2. The Lost Phantom Mine (Gonzales/Peralta Mine)
3. 8 foot Tall skeleton with a bright light emanating from its' chest cavity

The Lost Phantom Mine got it's name from a sighting by an old prospector named Arizona Charlie who saw the ghostly skeleton in the late 1800s while looking for the lost mine. The mine was actually a known one, first worked by Indians, then Spanish. The Indians cased the Spanish out of the area in the late 1700s. Then the Gonzales Family of Chihuahua, Mexico owned it after the Revolution, and let two of the younger Peraltas work it after the family massacre in the Superstitions, until the Mexican American War. They snuck back twice to get some gold, but the second time were run off by Indians (1848).

Pegleg NEVER had a gold mine.

What surprises me is that the Borrego Bigfoot sightings and the San Sebastian Marsh massacre story haven't found there way into the mix yet.

Best-Mike

 

[pegleglooker]

YEAHHHHH!!!!!!!! MIKES BACK !!!!!!!!

Good to hear from ya !!!! and you are sooo write, it's just like playing telephone. The tuff thing is trying to find out what is real... and what is not. That's the challenge.

PLL
PS- Hey Mike, I now have a 95 4runner... let's hit the trails......( probaly after summer ) but i'm itchin bad to get out there....

 

[gollum]

Thanks PLL,

I'm out almost every week. Temperatures be damned!

I'm heading out to Southern Arizona tomorrow, and will be back Sunday. Checkin' out something with someone

Best-Mike

 

[pegleglooker]

Hey gang,
I was wondering if any of you central or northern people have ever looked into the Tiburcio Vasquez or Joaquin Murieta lost payroll or stolen cache's. Have you been able to locate the basic area's ? Have anything you are willing to share ?? I'm just a little curios... There has got to be something out there... Even if it's relics...

PLL

 

[skubeedoo777]

Hi PLL,

An article in the Desert Mag said that a guy found Peg Leg's gold and mined it for many years. He also said he sent some of the nuggets to the magazine. Do you know if this is true?

 

[gollum]

Hi PLL,

An article in the Desert Mag said that a guy found Peg Leg's gold and mined it for many years. He also said he sent some of the nuggets to the magazine. Do you know if this is true?

Hey Skubee,

Yes. It's true. I think it was in 1965. Desert Mag kept the nuggets on display with the letters in their office for many years until they closed down.

Pegleg's Gold is also not from a MINE. It is a placer deposit on a hilltop.

Best-Mike

 

[pegleglooker]

hey gang,
Hi Mike !!! Well here comes some controversy, I have been in contact with a Desert Magazine writer from the 70's by the name of Bill Jennings. Bill and I have spent hours talking about EVERYTHING, and I specifically asked him about " the man who found Pegleg's gold ". He was a bit hesitant at first, but then he opened up " it was a hoax ". What ? I said and he repeated " it was a hoax ", " you see Jack and Choral made it up. The gold was real, given to Jack by some oldtimers years ago ". I told him that would be hard to swallow and he said to check the dates.






The letters were coming fine because it was Jack who wrote them. But after Jack passed away they stopped. Some people questioned weather Jack was behind it, so Choral wrote ONE letter more just to try to dispel the rumours and that was it.... and then....no more letters. I must of asked him 100 times more about this but he all he would say is " it was a hoax ". But the way he said it was as if he was ashamed to admit it. He also told me that Jack and choral had split up before Jack's death and that Choral had been staying at the Gardner ranch in Temecula ( Gardner is Earl Stanely Gardner, a writer for the Perry Mason series ) Choral and Earl were getting closer and it was tearing Jack apart. I won't go on as why they split apart, it doesn't matter now anyways.




I searched my Desert Mag archives and It's odd that I don't see a memorial article for Jack. But there is one for Randall Henderson ( written by Jack ). The last correspondence I have is Nov 1980 and is a letter from John Southworth ( from Burbank ) commenting on the Choral article ( June 1980 ). This article was a interview, the last article I have from " the man who found Pegleg's gold " is dated Aug 1975. The first article I show on pegleg is dated April 1939 and it talks about how Harry Oliver planted 200 " peglegs " out on the desert. I know this will have people on both sides arguing about what is true and what isn't.... I'm simply telling all of you what I was told, each of us will have to come to our own conclusion. As for me.... I'm not sure... but the dates do add up.....

PLL

 

[gollum]

Well, I for one believe it (that it was a hoax, that is).

One thing I have found out in the last couple of years is that MOST of the treasure book writers were not above making up crap to sell books and magazine articles.

To me, though, that's a plus in the case of Pegleg's Gold. If this guy had gone back and forth for ten or fifteen years, then he would have mostly worked out the vein. Now that means that hilltop is likely still covered in black nuggets!

As long as the nuggets weren't hoaxed, it makes me even more hopeful.

Best-Mike