UPDATE: 1789 Counterstamped Half Reale ... Rare IV over III!!!

[West Jersey Detecting]

UPDATE: SEE IRON PATCHES REPLY BELOW SHOWING THE PAGE FROM THE KRAUSE'S GUIDE!!!


The temps were supposed to approach 90 today, but I was seeing overcast skies out my window. After torrential downpours over the last two days, I thought the wet conditions would make it a good day to get out and detect; at least until it got too unbearably hot.

So I got my equipment together and got my Dunkin Donuts coffe and headed to my favorite site. I said to myself "today is the day I am going to find Spanish Silver." No lie. I really did. I could just feel it.

I worked areas that I have already worked and dug a few deep buttons. Then I got a very low whisper. I pinpointed and got a depth of 9 inches on my display, but no VDI or tone. I scrubbed the ground with the coil and got a little chirp. Usually this turns out to be deep iron, but I don't take chances at this site. I dug a nice sized plug and it was still in the hole. I was able to get a strong signal with my Garrett Pro Pointer, so I knew I could safely dig a deeper plug under the target with my Lesche.

Once I got it out, it gave the nice high VDI of a coin. I could not make out much, but I saw enough detail to guess what I had found.



The "NG" mint mark is from the Nueva Guatemala mint. It is my understanding that Half Reales are scarce from this mint. And the HS Counterstamp makes this even more special.



UPDATE: As I was looking closely at my find, I noticed a die variation. The IV appears to be stamped over III. SEE IRON PATCHES REPLY BELOW SHOWING THE PAGE FROM THE KRAUSE'S GUIDE!!!

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

Re: 1789 Half Reale ... Counterstamped!

At first I thought there was a die variation ('IV' over 'IIII'), but then I read that the visage of the 'IIII' first appeared in 1790, ergo.......with this coin dated 1789, and unless there was an exception, I'm at a loss to understand what appears as (at least) another "I" partially hidden behind the "V".
Source: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+NG+mint+IV+over+III&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Don.....

The Visage refers to the Bust, which was finally changed in 1791. In other words, the name was changed on coins dated 1789 & 90 but the image of Charles III continued for two more years. These are known as the transitional issues. In 1789 there were at least two different varieties; some showing IIII, some with IV. I am not aware of any known variety of a IV over either IIII, or more likely, IV over III but it is obvious that there is at least one more I hidden under the V.

After the magnificent Pillar coinage of Philip V, Ferdinand VI and Charles III, the portrait coinage of Charles III (1772-1788) was rather disappointing aesthetically. When Charles III died in 1788, his portrait continued to appear on Latin American coins dated 1789 and 1790. During these transitional years; the inscription was changed from Carolus III to Carolus IV and finally Carolus IIII. The visage of Charles IIII first appeared in 1791. The engraver(s) presented the new King in a far more attractive manner than his father. The crowned Bourbon Coat of arms appeared on the reverse as before with mint mark and engravers’ initials updated accordingly.

 

[goldcoastwayne]

Re: 1789 Half Reale ... Counterstamped!

At first I thought there was a die variation ('IV' over 'IIII'), but then I read that the visage of the 'IIII' first appeared in 1790, ergo.......with this coin dated 1789, and unless there was an exception, I'm at a loss to understand what appears as (at least) another "I" partially hidden behind the "V".
Source: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+NG+mint+IV+over+III&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Don.....

The Visage refers to the Bust, which was finally changed in 1791. In other words, the name was changed on coins dated 1789 & 90 but the image of Charles III continued for two more years. These are known as the transitional issues. In 1789 there were at least two different varieties; some showing IIII, some with IV. I am not aware of any known variety of a IV over either IIII, or more likely, IV over III but it is obvious that there is at least one more I hidden under the V.

After the magnificent Pillar coinage of Philip V, Ferdinand VI and Charles III, the portrait coinage of Charles III (1772-1788) was rather disappointing aesthetically. When Charles III died in 1788, his portrait continued to appear on Latin American coins dated 1789 and 1790. During these transitional years; the inscription was changed from Carolus III to Carolus IV and finally Carolus IIII. The visage of Charles IIII first appeared in 1791. The engraver(s) presented the new King in a far more attractive manner than his father. The crowned Bourbon Coat of arms appeared on the reverse as before with mint mark and engravers’ initials updated accordingly.

Your coin is awesome and I really love this kind of dialogue...very interesting observations

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: 1789 Counterstamped Half Reale ... IV over III?

Dude I think you might have a very good coin! And now it's probably time to move off the forum and check with an expert, maybe a Spanish coin dealer. I have a couple of Spanish auction catalogs (from Spain) for sales by some serious experts/dealers and I'm pretty sure they speak English so if you want their contact info let me know. (I've dealt with them before which is why I have the auction books)

Here's the interesting part, and maybe a little tease for now.... Pretty much every other coin on the page that has no price listed is rare to unique! Why that one doesn't say anything I have no idea, but lets hope it's because there are none known!

I thought this was a pretty interesting find but unless I'm reading something wrong I think it just got elevated to banner status, and maybe no-brainer banner status. Anyway, it's late, and I hope I didn't make a stupid mistake to get you going, but if it was my coin I'd be feeling pretty good right now. I just hope it works out.

PS... It took me about 10 minutes to try and sort out why it's listed that way, and after changing my mind a couple of times I'm feeling good again. Because the King is listed at the start of the section, and not in the column, this must mean that it is indeed a 1789 IV over III. (plus two listings for 1789 I think seals it) Now for the issue of why the price is blank.... As I said every other coin that has no price ranges from rare to unique, and they are marked as such. That gave me a bad feeling until I seen on the opposite page there's the exact same scenario for a 2 reales, but it shows the price which is low, so it is obviously a common coin. So it only makes sense there is no price for the 1789 NG M IV/III Half Real because it is not a common coin. Well it's late, and that's all I got.


If someone has an 18th century Krause World Coins other then the 3rd edition which my picture is from, can you check and see if the listing is any different? (Under Guatemala - only a few pages)

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

Re: 1789 Counterstamped Half Reale ... IV over III?

Dude I think you might have a very good coin! And now it's probably time to move off the forum and check with an expert, maybe a Spanish coin dealer. I have a couple of Spanish auction catalogs (from Spain) for sales by some serious experts/dealers and I'm pretty sure they speak English so if you want their contact info let me know. (I've dealt with them before which is why I have the auction books)

Here's the interesting part, and maybe a little tease for now.... Pretty much every other coin on the page that has no price listed is rare to unique! Why that one doesn't say anything I have no idea, but lets hope it's because there are none known!

I thought this was a pretty interesting find but unless I'm reading something wrong I think it just got elevated to banner status, and maybe no-brainer banner status. Anyway, it's late, and I hope I didn't make a stupid mistake to get you going, but if it was my coin I'd be feeling pretty good right now. I just hope it works out.

PS... It took me about 10 minutes to try and sort out why it's listed that way, and after changing my mind a couple of times I'm feeling good again. Because the King is listed at the start of the section, and not in the column, this must mean that it is indeed a 1789 IV over III. (plus two listings for 1789 I think seals it) Now for the issue of why the price is blank.... As I said every other coin that has no price ranges from rare to unique, and they are marked as such. That gave me a bad feeling until I seen on the opposite page there's the exact same scenario for a 2 reales, but it shows the price which is low, so it is obviously a common coin. So it only makes sense there is no price for the 1789 NG M IV/III because it is not a common coin. Well it's late, and that's all I got.


If someone has an 18th century Krause World Coins other then the 3rd edition which my picture is from, can you check and see if the listing is any different? (Under Guatemala - only a few pages)

Now I know what the HS stands for...HOLY S**T!! Needless to say I was up all night twisting and turning thinking about what this may be worth! I am going to spend a good part of the morning contacting some of the experts.

Thanks for the contact info!!

 

[hogge]

Re: UPDATE: 1789 Counterstamped Half Reale ... Rare IV over III?

A fantastic find Neil! I'm happy for you. I have to agree with IP, although as regards to it's rarity, it IS listed as a variation. My guess is there are one or two others known. This would be a GREAT coin to list in the Colonial Coin Collectors Club website, to see what these guys have to say about it. Either Don in SJ or I could do this for you, as we are both members. Don has more knowledge than I in this area, but I also have a couple contacts that may be able to assist you. I wouldn't list this without your permission, so if you like E-mail me privately. Todd (Hogge)

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

Re: UPDATE: 1789 Counterstamped Half Reale ... Rare IV over III?

A fantastic find Neil! I'm happy for you. I have to agree with IP, although as regards to it's rarity, it IS listed as a variation. My guess is there are one or two others known. This would be a GREAT coin to list in the Colonial Coin Collectors Club website, to see what these guys have to say about it. Either Don in SJ or I could do this for you, as we are both members. Don has more knowledge than I in this area, but I also have a couple contacts that may be able to assist you. I wouldn't list this without your permission, so if you like E-mail me privately. Todd (Hogge)

Thanks Todd! I sent you some high res photos as well.

 

[mainer]

Re: UPDATE: 1789 Counterstamped Half Reale ... Rare IV over III?

Pretty exciting to say the least Neil. Keep us posted on what you find out.

 

[Sniffy]

Re: UPDATE: 1789 Counterstamped Half Reale ... Rare IV over III?

Wow..thats amazing!

 

[hogge]

Re: UPDATE: 1789 Counterstamped Half Reale ... Rare IV over III?

Given the research by IP, and what is known now of this coin, I have nominated it for BANNER! I hope the rest of you will do the same. Hogge

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: 1789 Counterstamped Half Reale ... IV over III?

Dude I think you might have a very good coin! And now it's probably time to move off the forum and check with an expert, maybe a Spanish coin dealer. I have a couple of Spanish auction catalogs (from Spain) for sales by some serious experts/dealers and I'm pretty sure they speak English so if you want their contact info let me know. (I've dealt with them before which is why I have the auction books)

Here's the interesting part, and maybe a little tease for now.... Pretty much every other coin on the page that has no price listed is rare to unique! Why that one doesn't say anything I have no idea, but lets hope it's because there are none known!

I thought this was a pretty interesting find but unless I'm reading something wrong I think it just got elevated to banner status, and maybe no-brainer banner status. Anyway, it's late, and I hope I didn't make a stupid mistake to get you going, but if it was my coin I'd be feeling pretty good right now. I just hope it works out.

PS... It took me about 10 minutes to try and sort out why it's listed that way, and after changing my mind a couple of times I'm feeling good again. Because the King is listed at the start of the section, and not in the column, this must mean that it is indeed a 1789 IV over III. (plus two listings for 1789 I think seals it) Now for the issue of why the price is blank.... As I said every other coin that has no price ranges from rare to unique, and they are marked as such. That gave me a bad feeling until I seen on the opposite page there's the exact same scenario for a 2 reales, but it shows the price which is low, so it is obviously a common coin. So it only makes sense there is no price for the 1789 NG M IV/III because it is not a common coin. Well it's late, and that's all I got.


If someone has an 18th century Krause World Coins other then the 3rd edition which my picture is from, can you check and see if the listing is any different? (Under Guatemala - only a few pages)

Now I know what the HS stands for...HOLY S**T!! Needless to say I was up all night twisting and turning thinking about what this may be worth! I am going to spend a good part of the morning contacting some of the experts.

Thanks for the contact info!!

All night? It was morning. But I know the feeling of waiting to hear what the final call is by the people that count. It brings me right back to my first military button and the moment I opened the email. (making an offer) It knocked me off my chair but that was good because I needed to pick up my jaw. It wasn't worth a huge sum, but still shocking at the time for someone who was new to detecting and had just been hunting behind the house along the river!

 

[Kyle PA]

Neil, I think you may have found something that could allow you to deposit a large sum to your bank account. I hope it is found to be one of a kind!!!

 

[fir469]

It's been a long time comin on finding Spanish Silver and you've done it my friend, a well deserved hard earned beauty of a reale. A rare variety too boot! Congrats Buddy you needed this!! Definate nomination for the banner!! Now I'm the last of the group to find one... boy how I would love too!! It'll come, I guess I gotta start predicting my finds as well haha!! (Come on gold coin lol) TTYS!!

-Jason

 

[timekiller]

Great Real Neil, Good help to there IP! This one needs a place up top!
Very Cool Find!
Take Care!

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

7/19 Update:

I am still trying to get more information on the coin. I did hear back from the head of one colonial coin organization and he had the following to say:

Hi Neil,
1789 is when Charles IV took the throne. This coin appears to be from a die made for Charles III and was changed to IV when the mint heard about Charles IV. I see the coin listed in "Spain, Portugal and the New World" and the pricing has dashes as you mention for the other Krause book. I would think that the dashes either mean that they don't know the pricing or that it is very rare and an auction would decide the pricing. I couldn't even venture a guess as to value. The hole would detract but if it is rare... Museums might help with information but not with value. You might check with some coin dealers that specialize in colonial Spanish coinage...
I wish I could be of more help.

Of course when other so called "specialists" were contacted, they show their true lack of knowledge by saying things like "whatever premium there might be is surely negated by the coin's poor condition (worn and holed)." While that would be true for scarce and common varieties, I am sure if this coin was one of two or three known, the premium may be lessened but definitely not negated.

 

[Mackaydon]

Neil,
You may wish to contact the Krause Company and ask them for their source in noting the coin's existence; then contact that source for further info.
Don.......

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

Neil,
You may wish to contact the Krause Company and ask them for their source in noting the coin's existence; then contact that source for further info.
Don.......

Thanks for the suggestion, Don!

 

[pinebarrens1]

i hope you got a 50,000 dollor coin there neil .......you really put your time and effort in the hobbie buddy . good luck ........go n.j

 

[Iron Patch]

7/19 Update:

I am still trying to get more information on the coin. I did hear back from the head of one colonial coin organization and he had the following to say:

Hi Neil,
1789 is when Charles IV took the throne. This coin appears to be from a die made for Charles III and was changed to IV when the mint heard about Charles IV. I see the coin listed in "Spain, Portugal and the New World" and the pricing has dashes as you mention for the other Krause book. I would think that the dashes either mean that they don't know the pricing or that it is very rare and an auction would decide the pricing. I couldn't even venture a guess as to value. The hole would detract but if it is rare... Museums might help with information but not with value. You might check with some coin dealers that specialize in colonial Spanish coinage...
I wish I could be of more help.

Of course when other so called "specialists" were contacted, they show their true lack of knowledge by saying things like "whatever premium there might be is surely negated by the coin's poor condition (worn and holed)." While that would be true for scarce and common varieties, I am sure if this coin was one of two or three known, the premium may be lessened but definitely not negated.

I really like the sound of that being listed in a non Krause book with dashes! That must confirm it's a rare one, but what is interesting is Krause having no idea of the number of specimans reported having no rarity listing for it. It might be a little overly optimistic, but if it was mine I'd be crossing my fingers it meant no known examples. (but I'm never that lucky and you probably won't be either)

If it does turn out to be very rare I think the hole might lose a little but certainly wouldn't smoke the price. I believe it's posted higher on this thread many coins with that mint are holed, so that would be a good thing if serious collectors are used to filling holes (no pun intended) in their collection with holed coins.

 

[Iron Patch]

i hope you got a 50,000 dollor coin there neil .......you really put your time and effort in the hobbie buddy . good luck ........go n.j

I think I'd be hoping for a $500 coin and anything after that a bonus!

 

[ProPointer]

Very beautiful coin my friend. Congrats on the good fortunes.

-PP